Is this a potassium deficiency?

What defencency do I have

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raggyb

Well-Known Member
Ya it's sort of complicated. I used to grow in coco years ago when I knew nothing about it...and I had too many issues so went to straight hydro.

Now I find myself wanting to include some coco in my next grow. So I'm studying up.

We're getting to the upper edge of my coco knowledge...but I think that because both Ca++ and MG++ having those double bonds...gives them a greater affinity to the coco cec sites. So they can kick off and replace Na+ and K+ fairly easily. 24 hours should do it.
JD
Read the other article. Good stuff. Sounds like you need to get new coco fairly often and not reuse. Not sure I should try it.
Just a minor point, bonds are for molecules. I'm not sure these are making molecules but probably just static attractions. You know, like I'm an ion mountain climber and I'll just hang here on a coir ledge because it's got fingerholds and I got nothing better to do and I'm tired of swimming. And if a H20 comes by at just the right orientation it might just pull me in the water, but if I'm Ca++ I'm less likely to be swept away than Na+ and K+ are, because I got 2 hands to hold on to coir and they only got 1, and also, Na and K like water more than I do. And if I'm here there are less fingerholds for Na or K to grab onto, so nah nah more coco for me and my kind. Seems real statistical. Probably air in the water helps so these double ions can sort of get their heads out of the water and hang on. Also a little water movement maybe? And maybe just this once a little Cl from tap for the salts.
 

Tim1987

Well-Known Member
Hi everyone,

My 2cents to this thread...

I believe coco coir is taken way too seriously regarding cation exchange capacity. Growers get overly absorbed about it.

The fact of the matter is, its coconut husk. It NATURALLY contains very high amounts of calcium, magnesium, potassium, and sodium. (It grows and is processed on, or near the beach)
Also the material is organic. (it is continuously composting and breaking down. Just like soil.)
Because it is continuously breaking down, then it leaches, or excretes these salts from itself. This is Cation Exchange Capacity. (just like soil)
It also has the ability to absorb water, and dissolved solids like a sponge. (just like soil)

The issue with coir is the sodium content. The levels are very high, and very quickly turn into lockout, and deficiency issues.
This salt NEEDS to be dissolved, and leached from the coir. This is generally the inherent problem with buying block coir. Also some coir is much greener, (fresher) than they should be. It needs to be aged. Most husks just get thrown through a wood chipper. Some are processed greener than others. The greener the coir, the more sodic it is.
They have to be expanded, and leached properly. Otherwise it causes a whole heap of problems. Typically 99% of the time calcium and magnesium deficiency, potassium toxicity, and extremely low osmosis to the plant. (we see it ALL THE TIME here on RIU)
They look extremely droopy, dry, malnourished, wilted, blistered, and thirsty. All at the same time.

Using lime to "buffer" your coir, in this case will not only catch the sodium, and cause sodium to remain in the media. But it will raise the ph as well. Its counter productive to what we're trying to achieve. (sodium scarce root zone)
Personally ive only ever limed my coir once, which was on my first coco grow.

In my own experience it is far easier, to stick with a synthetic nutrient. Because the solution has the ability to pass through, and be absorbed by the micro fibres in the coir. (its porous, and extremely absorbent).
Personally i never pre buffer with calmag. I only rinse it with my base feed, and buy block coir. I have never bought a bag of pre expanded, and prepared coir.
In my opinion it isn't true about needing extra calmag, less potassium etc, etc. My own NPK right now comes to 6-4-10. This ratio hasn't changed since seedling stage. Only the strength.

The "Cation Exchange Capacity" isn't a complicated thing. Quite simply we water with our nutrient solution (which contains cations). The coir reaches saturation, then leaches what it is holding to the waste. Then absorbs the new nutrient solution (it exchanges).
The number 1 rule with coir, is to NEVER let the coir dry too much. Because otherwise the coir DOES rob the root zone of calmag etc, and starts "charging up". The trick is to never let this occurrence happen.
Coir is incredibly inert when kept moist. Holds an insane amount of air, and doesnt require perlite. Doesn't need buffering, because it buffers itself. Is extremely inert when saturated. Naturally holds a ph of around 6.5 to 7, also is mold and bacteria resistant.
Its an excellent DTW medium for these reasons alone.

Also whenever something isn't right with my plants in coco. I ALWAYS check my waste, and judge what to do from there. Every time theres something wrong, the waste ppms are either way too high. Or the ph is way out of whack.
This is so easy to rectify. Because all that needs doing is rinsing the media with our base nutrient. Until whats coming out in the waste is matching whats going in. BOTH ph and ppm. It is that simple.
I even germinate my seeds in coir. Always have.
There must be waste every feed as well. Otherwise buildup, and lockout definitely will happen.
Any lime or additives in our coir makes these processes much harder to achieve, or perceive accurately.

I'll include a couple photos to hopefully help explain my point.
Seeds broke ground on the 1st of July. First photo is from the 12th of July. Second photo is today. I'll include them as a thumbnail.

Peace to all.

:peace:
 

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polishpollack

Well-Known Member
I don't see how it can be mg def. The fert probably has mg in it. I stand by my earlier idea of this being over fert. 750ppm given every time the grower waters is asking for trouble, coco or not. We can see how dense the coco in the pot is. All of those fibers have to be retaining water and nutrients. No, I don't grow in coco but the leaves look like over fert, not mg def and that's one characteristic I base my understanding on; that and 750ppm. If the fert isn't good for a coco grow then someone here should say so.
 

JohnDee

Well-Known Member
Just a minor point, bonds are for molecules.
Bonds (ionic and covalent) are for molecules or atoms. Water is actually a perfect solvent because it's polar (+ at one end - at the other) so molecules in water tend to disassociate to individual atoms or ions.

But I really like your version of the ion mountain climber hanging on the coco ledge with both hands. Works for me. lol
Cheers,
JD
 

raggyb

Well-Known Member
Bonds (ionic and covalent) are for molecules or atoms. Water is actually a perfect solvent because it's polar (+ at one end - at the other) so molecules in water tend to disassociate to individual atoms or ions.

But I really like your version of the ion mountain climber hanging on the coco ledge with both hands. Works for me. lol
Cheers,
JD
Ok cool, I stand corrected. I would think an individual + ion would more happily nestle itself in between the water dipoles grips than a ++ ion would. Something like this where the + in the middle is the Na or K ion.

+\ +\
- + -
+/ +/
 

JohnDee

Well-Known Member
Ok cool, I stand corrected
Well you were correct about the electrostatic charges (hydrogen bonds) which are strong enough to break ionic bonds. Then we get to spinning clouds of electrons that aren't really there...just more likely to be there then anywhere else.

Actually I believe the whole thing boils down to what the ion mountain climber has in his back pockets.
JD
 

Tim1987

Well-Known Member
Hi guys,

If I'm being honest, how does all this translate to coco coir?
I can understand having a go at members who haven't used coir before, giving incorrect advice. Fair enough.
But right now you guys are effectively doing the same thing. Neither of you are sure about what is being said. It's a deep dark rabbit hole, that at the end of the day, if using a reputable nutrient, we don't even need to worry about all the chemistry. It's just confusing others. Including myself.
How does all this fit into context guys?
If we're talking solvents and plant osmosis. Water is a solvent correct? As stated. Sodium conducts electricity better than any nutrient salts, correct? Osmosis is an electrical current that runs through the plant, and makes the plant stand tall and straight, correct?
Electricity always follows the path of least resistance, correct?
So essentially if our root zone is too sodic, there isn't enough osmotic pressure inside the plant, because the sodium in the root zone is robbing the current, which is where the water (solvent) goes, correct?
How else does a plant get water, and nutrient?
Salty coir = extremely low plant osmosis (low water content inside the plant). Drooping, deficiency and lack of water.
No offense, but how does what you guys are talking about help a coir grower?
It isn't being any more helpful, than the individual you had no problem with slandering.

:peace:
 
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raggyb

Well-Known Member
Hi guys,

If I'm being honest, how does all this translate to coco coir?
I can understand having a go at members who haven't used coir before, giving incorrect advice. Fair enough.
But right now you guys are effectively doing the same thing. Neither of you are sure about what is being said. It's a deep dark rabbit hole, that at the end of the day, if using a reputable nutrient, we don't even need to worry about all the chemistry. It's just confusing others. Including myself.
How does all this fit into context guys?
If we're talking solvents and plant osmosis. Water is a solvent correct? As stated. Sodium conducts electricity better than any nutrient salts, correct? Osmosis is an electrical current that runs through the plant, and makes the plant stand tall and straight, correct?
Electricity always follows the path of least resistance, correct?
So essentially if our root zone is too sodic, there isn't enough osmotic pressure inside the plant, because the sodium in the root zone is robbing the current, which is where the water (solvent) goes, correct?
How else does a plant get water, and nutrient?
Salty coir = extremely low plant osmosis (low water content inside the plant). Drooping, deficiency and lack of water.
No offense, but how does what you guys are talking about help a coir grower?
It isn't being any more helpful, than the individual you had no problem with slandering.

:peace:
Hi Tim,
I found what you just said very useful. I don't know if the OP is even reading any more. Maybe we're silly but I think the discussion is alluding to several possibilities for what's wrong with his plants. Like, could definitely be a salt overload, Na, could even be a K overload, could be drying out, and then could be N or P deficiency, which is me saying that. I know some other things were suggested based on experience with appearance, and some disagreement but whatever. Like I said I know enough to be dangerous. But some of the know it alls don't even know that. Well I guess it's a free although anonymous world 8):weed:.
 

Tim1987

Well-Known Member
Hi Tim,
I found what you just said very useful. I don't know if the OP is even reading any more. Maybe we're silly but I think the discussion is alluding to several possibilities for what's wrong with his plants. Like, could definitely be a salt overload, Na, could even be a K overload, could be drying out, and then could be N or P deficiency, which is me saying that. I know some other things were suggested based on experience with appearance, and some disagreement but whatever. Like I said I know enough to be dangerous. But some of the know it alls don't even know that. Well I guess it's a free although anonymous world 8):weed:.
Hi raggyb,

Never once doubted your own knowledge or skill. Just believe it doesn't need to be so complex.
Not so much for myself and yours, but for potential newbies browseing this thread. Only in the sense it may confuse a new comer, more than help them. That's all. Not about knowing it all, all of us are continuously learning.
It definitely confused me when i first started growing in coco. No denying at all.
Really wasn't meaning to have a jab either, and apologize if it offended. Unintended.

Take it easy raggyb.

Tim.
 

raggyb

Well-Known Member
Hi raggyb,

Never once doubted your own knowledge or skill. Just believe it doesn't need to be so complex.
Not so much for myself and yours, but for potential newbies browseing this thread. Only in the sense it may confuse a new comer, more than help them. That's all. Not about knowing it all, all of us are continuously learning.
It definitely confused me when i first started growing in coco. No denying at all.
Really wasn't meaning to have a jab either, and apologize if it offended. Unintended.

Take it easy raggyb.

Tim.
No problemo. I get carried away. You're right confusing. I think noobs gotta learn there are no quick answers. I feel lucky I bought coco to do a side by side but did not use it which turned out to be lucky because I would have made a lot of incorrect conclusions without reading a thread like this one and I probably would have fucked up my soil grows too based on incorrect assumptions.
 

polishpollack

Well-Known Member
Apparently coco brings a sodium problem... unless it is washed. If washed it should be good to use.
Tim, are you referring to me when you say someone is being slandered and has given bad advice? I hope not as I'm not feeling slandered nor did I give bad advice. No one else here has tried to determine exactly what's wrong with those plants except myself. You have to determine exactly what plant discoloration is trying to tell you before making a statement on it. What we see in those pics isn't mg def, of that I'm sure. Dying leaf tips and 750ppm being fed every two days in a coco grow is asking for plant death. If the coco being used has been washed, the sodium issue isn't an issue as most of the salt is gone.
I don't need to be experienced with coco. I know over fert when I see it.
 

Tim1987

Well-Known Member
Apparently coco brings a sodium problem... unless it is washed. If washed it should be good to use.
Tim, are you referring to me when you say someone is being slandered and has given bad advice? I hope not as I'm not feeling slandered nor did I give bad advice. No one else here has tried to determine exactly what's wrong with those plants except myself. You have to determine exactly what plant discoloration is trying to tell you before making a statement on it. What we see in those pics isn't mg def, of that I'm sure. Dying leaf tips and 750ppm being fed every two days in a coco grow is asking for plant death. If the coco being used has been washed, the sodium issue isn't an issue as most of the salt is gone.
I don't need to be experienced with coco. I know over fert when I see it.
PP I agree. They are over fed. Yes sodium is definitely an inherent problem. If it isn't the overfeeding. It's salt Imo.
Wasn't defending you at all. By no means would I like to, or need to either.
Just speaking my mind, and typing what I see. That's all.
Same as you pal.
Chill out pussycat.

Take it easy.

Tim.
 

polishpollack

Well-Known Member
I didn't say you were defending. I have critics here, but I've learned that they tend to just go away after a while. This thread is no different. Since reaper hasn't come back, we may never know the outcome.
 
Just a quick update, I have been using the heads formula and it seems to be working very good, all new growth looks awesome hope it stays this way
 
Hey guys, another question for yas all, attached is a photo of an autoflower I have on the go. Do you think it can be cut or should I wait? I am leaving for a month in 5 days and didn’t eat to leave the chopping process for my wife.
 

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jarvild

Well-Known Member
Hey guys, another question for yas all, attached is a photo of an autoflower I have on the go. Do you think it can be cut or should I wait? I am leaving for a month in 5 days and didn’t eat to leave the chopping process for my wife.
Still a lot of clear heads, I'd say another week or two.
But, you do what you have too. I still know older growers that take their plants at 50 days no matter if they are done or not.
 
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