jarvild
Well-Known Member
Again we are talking about coir. My coir plants never see a feed without at least 300 ppm of nutrient solution except for their last feed is plain water before chop.
Is this a potassium deficiency?
- Thread starter RussianReaper
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- need some help
JohnDee
Well-Known Member
You never flush with just water in coco...washes out the nutrient buffering. You see PP this is exactly what the Germling was talking about. I know you want to be helpful, but by posting bad advice...you're more of a problem then a solution.
JD
Thegermling
Well-Known Member
Your reply shows how much you know about coco. Yes, I did say not to give a mag supplement because most often than not giving a mag supplement will mess up the ratios(in coco) allowing potassium to be decreased even more (antagonism). The leaves are not that dark green btw. If the leaves were clawing and/or had a glossy/waxy look to them then that would be over fertilization. Also, no one experienced in coco would tell you to "Only use water to flush."Flushing with pure water messes up the cation exchange and causes osmotic stress (in coco). Youve clearly never grown in coco.
Thegermling
Well-Known Member
I know he wants to help but he has no solid foundation in coco. I only want to spread the right information to growers.
RussianReaper
Member
Not really mine seems to be more of the top of the plant.
JohnDee
Well-Known Member
Hi RaggyB,
What they refer to as "buffering" coco can be phrased adjusting the CEC (cation exchange capacity) Mostly the goal is to replace Na+ and K+ with Ca++ and Mg++.
I'm going to refer you to this site in case you want more reading on the subject.
https://www.maximumyield.com/buffering-up-adjusting-the-cation-exchange-capacity-in-coco-growing-media/2/1318
JD
PS Not related to ph although ph buffering is a common phrase...it refers to a nutrient mixes ability to maintain ph in a specific range.
polishpollack
Well-Known Member
jarvild, please come back to this thread as time passes and discuss what you do and put up pics of the outcome. I don't think you've been given any help here. However, one thing your leaves show is the appearance that the air temp might be too warm. Do you think this is possible?
BTW, to flush means no nutrients. Flushing with nutrients isn't a true flush, coco or no coco. All jarvild is saying is that with the last watering being nothing but water, it's a flush. It's exactly what should be done.
BTW, to flush means no nutrients. Flushing with nutrients isn't a true flush, coco or no coco. All jarvild is saying is that with the last watering being nothing but water, it's a flush. It's exactly what should be done.
Thegermling
Well-Known Member
Coming from a coco expert...right
Lucky Luke
Well-Known Member
I wish people would stop using the stoner term flush. It can mean different things. When I water my lawn or plants I don't flush them. Im watering them. Ever heard someone say they are going out to flush their veggie garden? How about "O good its raining its going to give the gardens a nice flush?" or farmers wishing it would flush soon as the drought has been bad.
OP I don't grow in Coco but have heard people who do say over and over again to not use plain water- ever. Use a diluted nutrient to leach the media with. (something to do with science and ions or molecules and attachments or something...idk..im not a chemist..)
Watering is watering.
Feeding is feeding.
Leaching is leaching.
Flushing is for plumbing.
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JohnDee
Well-Known Member
Luke,
I understand your point. I'm with you that flush should be used more accurately. An end of run switch to water only (or some commercial product and water) should probably be called leaching...and a flush is like when washing out excess nutrient salts. But a one man crusade will wear you out.
Oh...and it's not just for stoners anymore.
JD
https://americanag.com/Flushing-Potted-Plants.html
jarvild
Well-Known Member
Max air temp is 77 degrees in my garden under LEDs.
Where in any of my post do you see me mentioning the term Flushing, you won't because it's not used in my gardens. The term flushing refers to pouring 2-3 times the pot size of plain water through the medium.
As for pics, how many do you want?
The pic of the 2 plants shown earlier was showing the difference in nutrients requirements between plants under HIDs and LEDs. The one on the left was under LEDs while the one on the right HIDs, both fed the same nutrient profile and strength. So which one looks healthier.
I know you where just trying to help the OP. But flushing with plain water in coir is asking for trouble.
Lucky Luke
Well-Known Member
Linking an advertising page is not education. Pick up a horticulture text book. Look for the word flush. Talk to a farmer ask him when he flushes.
Stoners use flush for mainly two reasons. One. leaching. Two watering (water only, usually the ,last week looking for fade and or saving money on nutrients and/or magic). These two words already exist in the horticulture world and have done for some time. Now nutrient companies will sell you anything and everything they can. AN for eg sell the unwary a product called Final Finish which is their "flush". Its Epsom salts at a huge mark up. Now would you care to explain to me how Epsom salts will magically make any immobile nutrients disappear?
I get you don't want to change the way you use words, that's fine. But as Cannabis is a commercial crop its time we used horticulture terms, terms with one meaning, terms the farmers of today and tomorrow will be taught at agriculture schools and courses.
I live and work in an agricultural state and area. You wont here the word flush used in farming except by the hydro guys and gals when they talk about flushing the feed lines. Done usually between harvests. Bars flush their beer lines. Flushing is a plumbing term.
One man can lead to many. Who ever used the word Flush as leaching was one person. Whoever used LOL the first time was one person. Whoever said to boil the roots in sugar water at harvest and hang upside down so the THC drains to the buds was one person.
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raggyb
Well-Known Member
Very nice, thanks. I'm getting my chemistry on and carried away. It's a cool article.
They say 'deficiencies', but it seems there is way too much K if you flush (oops I said it). So actually an overdose of K is possible, or Na which probably isn't good either. So they say its nice to have prebuffered coco. Or I guess we could buffer ourself with Ca Mg for like a month before planting or maybe can speed that up by a continual flow of CaMg? Any chance running an electric current through coco would be beneficial?
Since they didn't mention them, I looked up N and it's more likely to become an anion, and P is an anion (-), so it I say it would be repelled by coco, and Si is 4+. Roots are going to have to pick your P up especially and maybe your N by themselves. So maybe that's why some find keep coco damp good. S is something wacky but sulfonium salts are cations. Sulfate is -2 so I guess Mg++ leaves MgSo4 and prefers to join coco, or so we hope? Maybe I'm way off but pretty stoked about this info anyways.
polishpollack
Well-Known Member
jarvild, I assumed that when in post #21 you say you give nothing but water that this was essentially a flush. I also got you mixed up with russianreaper. That's the temp I need to know, what light is being used, the wattage, how close to the plants.
polishpollack
Well-Known Member
You really haven't addressed the condition of the plants. So germling, you think this is a nutrient problem?Coming from a coco expert...right
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JohnDee
Well-Known Member
RaggyB,
I think that's part of it. Also the coco has loads of intra-cellular K+ and as it continues to deteriorate...excess K+ can be released. I think wet/dry cycles promote that.
Canna has a pretty good article called busting the myth...it may be easier to understand.
http://www.canna.com.au/growing_on_coco_busting_the_myth
On the "buffering" thing...it's fairly easy to do. Guys do it all the time. Only takes a few days and no electricity needed. lol
First just soak well...heard warm water works best. This is to get rid of salt which plants hate. Then just soak in 1/4 nutrients with added calmag (phed to proper coco level). The Ca++ and Mg++ will have a greater affinity with the cec sites and will saturate them just soaking overnight.
JD
Thegermling
Well-Known Member
It is magnesium deficiency. OP did you resolve it by trying H3ads formula? I dont amend the coco with anything not even perlite because it can throw off the cation exchange and alter cocos exceptional buffering capabilities. Give us an update on what you did. Also I would feed and let the runoff drip for a bit then check the ppms/ec. If its high by a ridiculous amount, say over 300+ppms of your normal feed strength then it could be lock out. Runoff ppm or ph arent as accurate, as ive recently been shown, but they can show "trends."
raggyb
Well-Known Member
JohnDee,
I reread the part about when he was growing roses and if I understood it I think he is saying as he watered Ca, the coco continued to soak up so much that the runoff had very little ppm left and it was only after 4 months that the runoff started increasing in ppm. That's where I got the impression it could take a very long time for the ca to saturate coco and therefore get the K and Na down to lower and I guess optimal amounts. But you know, if a couple days works then it works.
Thanks for the next read, I'll check it out.
JohnDee
Well-Known Member
Ya it's sort of complicated. I used to grow in coco years ago when I knew nothing about it...and I had too many issues so went to straight hydro.
Now I find myself wanting to include some coco in my next grow. So I'm studying up.
We're getting to the upper edge of my coco knowledge...but I think that because both Ca++ and MG++ having those double bonds...gives them a greater affinity to the coco cec sites. So they can kick off and replace Na+ and K+ fairly easily. 24 hours should do it.
JD