Is there still a strain as good as it's meant to be ???

mrueeda · Dec 23, 2012

I'll explain further, i have been on the net for a while, reading about every strain that captures my interest...Now what i'm actually asking is...is it fucking possible that every strain that has made the history of cannabis is not as good as its original release ?? I mean you take AK47, Kali mist, Blueberry, Sensi Star, NL , WW, skunk, haze, mazar, etc etc...if you look around on the forums there is always someone claiming that the courrent seeds sold by the same companies that originated the strains are not the same as it was in the mid 90s, and that they had the original cuts and it was like night and day respect to the nowadays genetics...

For example let's take the ak 47, but this is the same case of dj's BB, paradise SS, etc...They created a dank ass strain and in the middle of the 90s they lost their mothers (this already makes barely sense because i would keep 20 mothers of my flagship strain, but suppose for example that a virus killed all the mommas..shit happens lol) they would have tons and tons of seeds for finding another very similar plant, just like the ones that someone still has and claims being the original version...So why would they chose inferior phenos to continue the filial generations ? Is every master breeder a dumb ass ???! Many claim that the actual ak is much more indica and totally inferior compared to what it was in pre 2000, same discourse for the BB...

Now i give you my opinion...total BS...even if a breeder actually looses his mommas has a good chance to find a similar plant down in the breeding line, so the only way for a strain to change that much is because the breeder actually wants it...and i really don't see the reason...In my op it's simply much more probable a classic "good old days syndrome", or the desire of making your own strain unique even when its still widely produced and sold...

I really hope that someone shares his opinion on the theme and after theese considerations i finnally pose my initial question...Is there a classic strain that is accordingly to everyone still as good as it was when was created ??? :wall:

Relaxed · Dec 23, 2012

Heirloom plant....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heirloom_plant
This may give some insite to plants and the heirloom plant. The same can apply to MJ. Most I run accross are tomatoes. You always want to be as close to the original and with seeds if you have grown a pack at a time know the plants from within a pack have many finos. nature does some wild things. It's not manufacturing. Others will give a better answer.

canna_420 · Dec 23, 2012

Might be that Pre 2000 seeds ad other breeders.

Tony and Simon together.

One worked it another way than the other wanted..

But yes Ive ad a few seeds that have lived up if not better than I expected, but most of them dont. Even some of the stuff ive ad from MNS as been pretty shit compared to what was being put out lets say even 4 years ago.

Ones ive ad that have been better than expected .

Barnies Blue Cheese. I found a fucked up Blueberry pheno, I say fucked up as its NICE. Not someting every seed will give but well worth looking for .
More so when others advise against it.

Pyramids TuTankamoon. Siad to be an OLD skool AK47. I dunno but this shit is dank. I regret not keeping a mum of this.

Companies like Dinafem-Greenhouse i find the worste for getting everyone ready for something special that turns out basic.

Allthough I found rockerijs Lemon Skunk to be a pretty awsome smoke.

Also alot of it is down to personal tolerance

Jogro · Dec 23, 2012

I think there is a kernel of truth to this, but there are a lot of things at play.

Yes, in at least a few cases, the famous name lines have drifted (for whatever reason) so that the current branded version of the "name" genetics probably isn't as good as the original (eg Sensi Jack Herer).

In some cases, individual lines have been so widely copied, that what you may be buying under a given name well may be totally different than the famous original genetics (eg Northern Lights, Skunk #1, "White Widow").

It probably is true that nostalgia is partly at play here, and that even though the current version of a line is similar to how it was years ago, you remember it the older line more fondly. That's why music/food/movies/etc also aren't as good as when you were a kid. (Hell, nothing is ever as good as when you were a kid. . .).

I also think a big part of this is just that with another 20 years of selection, breeding, wide sharing of elite genetics via the internet, medical legalization, wide availability of water hash and/or hash oil, etc, the bar is just a lot higher than it used to be.

It isn't necessarily that everything from today blows away everything from 20 years ago (in my opinion, that's definitely NOT true), but that there really are a lot more top-level lines out there today, and its a lot easier to find top-level genetics now both in terms of ceeds and in terms of actual buds on the street.

Back in 1990, maybe there were 5 or 6 readily available commercial lines that could potentially give you 20% or higher THC, and in most places you were unlikely to find stuff like that on the commercial market. Meanwhile, today, there are more than 20 different lines potentially that strong, AND there are a lot more skilled growers out there getting lines to live up to their genetic potential.

So while Northern lights in 1990 (for example) was probably better than anything else you'd be likely to find then, today, you can walk into any one of fifty different dispensaries and walk out with half a dozen things as good as the Northern lights, or go to any one of a dozen ceed banks and select from a dozen or more strains as good. So even if your cut of Northern lights from today were just as good today as it was 20 years ago, the entire marketplace has shifted since then, and the line is simply no longer as special as it once was.

Incidentally, if you're interested in old school genetics like this, see my sig below for my ongoing grow report on William's Wonder.

In short, Sickmeds ceeds out of Spain has brought back an F3 version of original late 1980s super-sativa-see.d-club Williams Wonder. This breeder effectively took a 20 year old pack of ceeds managed to germinate some, and then used the ensuing plants to effectively re-create the original authentic line out of "suspended animation".

If you take a look at the posted cannabinoid profile numbers, they're pretty darn impressive. No, they don't "blow away" everything from today, and no the pure numbers probably aren't as good as the best of the CA kushes. But at 25%+ total tested total cannabinoids, this 20+ year old line still holds up compared to lots of the famous contemporary famous lines.

redfrogs · Dec 23, 2012

Not bagging on the seed co.s or breeders out there. But I feel that most of these "inferior" originals are created from less desirable phenos as it require much less work.

Take the CBG destroyer for example; from what I have read:
-The parent plants were destroyed by the cops
-The breeder then had to search through the F3s-F5s seed stock (not entirely sure how many F generations)
-Then breed it to F7 or F9 in order to make it as good as it was?

This seems like a lot of work for any person in order to re-stabilize a strain, which may explain a deterioration in quality of the classics? Also, I don't know if this is entirely true but I have read that there are seed manufacturers that supply seed companies with the same popular strains(from the same stock) to slap their names on and sell them; esp with fems. If this is true it might another reason why a classic strain might not be as good as it once was.

Maybe at this point of time it is better to look for alternative strains other than "classics". Maybe with the excemption of Kali if you chose the Western Winds instead and DJ's True Blueberry if your after blueberry. In the past I was always tempted to get most of the stuff in the list you mentioned but all the rave reviews i found were from phenos you couldn't obtain from the present seeds and at present could only be sourced from clone only variants of the "classics" ; like Cherry Ak47 for example

You might get lucky with a pack or two; but its like playing the lottery.

Mazar and Haze; however should still be as good as it always was as they are pure or land race lines.
IMO, haze would be the first one I would pick if I was after a classic strain that is still reasonably good as pure haze seeds are uncommon and are generally preserved/reproduced by people whom really really care about keeping it pure.
I'm not the most experienced, but that's my 2 cents... :fire:

mrueeda · Dec 23, 2012

Jogro said:
I think there is a kernel of truth to this, but there are a lot of things at play.

Yes, in at least a few cases, the famous name lines have drifted (for whatever reason) so that the current branded version of the "name" genetics probably isn't as good as the original (eg Sensi Jack Herer).

In some cases, individual lines have been so widely copied, that what you may be buying under a given name well may be totally different than the famous original genetics (eg Northern Lights, Skunk #1, "White Widow").

It probably is true that nostalgia is partly at play here, and that even though the current version of a line is similar to how it was years ago, you remember it the older line more fondly. That's why music/food/movies/etc also aren't as good as when you were a kid. (Hell, nothing is ever as good as when you were a kid. . .).

I also think a big part of this is just that with another 20 years of selection, breeding, wide sharing of elite genetics via the internet, medical legalization, wide availability of water hash and/or hash oil, etc, the bar is just a lot higher than it used to be.

It isn't necessarily that everything from today blows away everything from 20 years ago (in my opinion, that's definitely NOT true), but that there really are a lot more top-level lines out there today, and its a lot easier to find top-level genetics now both in terms of ceeds and in terms of actual buds on the street.

Back in 1990, maybe there were 5 or 6 readily available commercial lines that could potentially give you 20% or higher THC, and in most places you were unlikely to find stuff like that on the commercial market. Meanwhile, today, there are more than 20 different lines potentially that strong, AND there are a lot more skilled growers out there getting lines to live up to their genetic potential.

So while Northern lights in 1990 (for example) was probably better than anything else you'd be likely to find then, today, you can walk into any one of fifty different dispensaries and walk out with half a dozen things as good as the Northern lights, or go to any one of a dozen ceed banks and select from a dozen or more strains as good. So even if your cut of Northern lights from today were just as good today as it was 20 years ago, the entire marketplace has shifted since then, and the line is simply no longer as special as it once was.

Incidentally, if you're interested in old school genetics like this, see my sig below for my ongoing grow report on William's Wonder.

In short, Sickmeds ceeds out of Spain has brought back an F3 version of original late 1980s super-sativa-see.d-club Williams Wonder. This breeder effectively took a 20 year old pack of ceeds managed to germinate some, and then used the ensuing plants to effectively re-create the original authentic line out of "suspended animation".

If you take a look at the posted cannabinoid profile numbers, they're pretty darn impressive. No, they don't "blow away" everything from today, and no the pure numbers probably aren't as good as the best of the CA kushes. But at 25%+ total tested total cannabinoids, this 20+ year old line still holds up compared to lots of the famous contemporary famous lines.

Thanks for the wise and informative answer...I'm subbed to your williams wonder grow...this will be an interesting experiment for sure...Top notch old school weed teleported in the future ! Actually my question was more centered on the big name strains rather than the old school weed...Mainly because i have a slight sensation that when a good strain is created, you seem to have a certain window (like 8 years for example) to purchase the genetics (that accidentally coincides with the period in wich that strain is "trendy" if u pass me the term) then, in an almost systematic way, the strain is automatically polluted and becomes not as good as it was at first... I am very scientific guy in considering things, and when something repeats the same way so many times i'm naturally brought to think that its not casual, so the cases are two in my op:

1 its a natural social behaviour like i explained before
2 there are actual changes made by the breeders on the strains at some point

The reason why i asked if there was some big name strain that was as good as when released it was mainly because i'm pretty sure that every single well known strain has been criticized being not good as before...and this simply doesn't make sense because there must be someone who has managed to keep the same genetics for that time...That's why i'm led to the first option...In your answer for example you nominate NL and i totally agree that was some dank ass weed even on par with todays monsters, but if u ask around every single person will tell you that the original NL doesnt exist anymore, the line has changed etc etc...true ? false ? Maybe your right, thats just the medium level that has rised so that for example even a great strain like NL now seems less appealing than what it was back in the day...

mrueeda · Dec 23, 2012

redfrogs said:
Not bagging on the seed co.s or breeders out there. But I feel that most of these "inferior" originals are created from less desirable phenos as it require much less work.

Take the CBG destroyer for example; from what I have read:
-The parent plants were destroyed by the cops
-The breeder then had to search through the F3s-F5s seed stock (not entirely sure how many F generations)
-Then breed it to F7 or F9 in order to make it as good as it was?

This seems like a lot of work for any person in order to re-stabilize a strain, which may explain a deterioration in quality of the classics? Also, I don't know if this is entirely true but I have read that there are seed manufacturers that supply seed companies with the same popular strains(from the same stock) to slap their names on and sell them; esp with fems. If this is true it might another reason why a classic strain might not be as good as it once was.

Maybe at this point of time it is better to look for alternative strains other than "classics". Maybe with the excemption of Kali if you chose the Western Winds instead and DJ's True Blueberry if your after blueberry. In the past I was always tempted to get most of the stuff in the list you mentioned but all the rave reviews i found were from phenos you couldn't obtain from the present seeds and at present could only be sourced from clone only variants of the "classics" ; like Cherry Ak47 for example You might get lucky with a pack or two; but its like playing the lottery.

Mazar and Haze; however should still be as good as it always was as they are pure or land race lines.
IMO, haze would be the first one I would pick if I was after a classic strain that is still reasonably good as pure haze seeds are uncommon and are generally preserved/reproduced by people whom really really care about keeping it pure.
I'm not the most experienced, but that's my 2 cents...

Very interesting maybe your rite, its really reassuring that while the market is evolving into mutant plants selfed infinite times someone is still preserving some incredible strains in their purest form like haze...As for the mazar i heard many claiming that no breeder has actually the real deal landrace...I even read that to some it doesnt exist anymore as it was completely exterminated during war etc etc...load of BS on this...and even heard loads of BS on hazes not as the old ones...

However i think you unintentionally centered the problem...You said that you would have bought many of those genetics but you read somewhere that the best phenos weren't to be found anymore...As u also mentioned the cheeryAK i will post u what Simon from Serious Seeds has to say on this point and i am pretty sure that he is the person on this earth that has grown ak phenos more than anyone else...

About AK47 Cherry Phenotype
About the Cherry pheno in Ak-47 I'm not sure what to answer. You could say this is something which started on the net between people who grew Serious' AK-47. Several growers agreed that a certain type of the AK-47, which they grew and smoked, has a very sweet and cherry-like taste. Other growers seem to recognize this taste and smell, and so the 'Cherry AK-47 phenotype' was born.

As you might know it is very difficult to discuss tastes or to name, describe, a smell or taste objectively. Consequently I don't know exactly what they mean when growers talk about this. Some friends once tasted what a grower called cherry taste and said that you have to use a bit of imagination to recognize it. But was what they tried a real 'Cherry' AK-47 or was it just a close sister? So, we don't really know if what 'they' name cherry would be recognized as a cherry-taste by others, or not.

I have seen on numerous occasions that when people were smoking something, that several people named the taste different from the others; spicey, sweet, fruity, sandalwood, vanilla-ish, piney etc. all were used independently from each other. And who was right?

We have tasted many AK-plants, a fruity kind of sweetness is easily recognized in many of them, but we don't know which taste to call cherry. The total number of AK-47 seeds grown by growers worldwide is much bigger then we could ever trie in our test rooms, so the possibility that some find a rare and fantastic individual is very real. We get reports from people who claim to find Cherry-pheno's in every seedpack, while others say 1 out of a 100 plants is a Cherry. This alone shows that nobody knows what the other is talking about.

Nobody has showed us a clone so far of a 'Cherry', so the basic line is that there is no standard on what the charecteristics of the 'Cherry AK-47 phenotype' really is. But for us it is interesting to see that many people do find something which they are very happy with, and call 'cherry'.

So we think it is best to let growers carry on with this, as they certainly might be right. This is a myth of which it is not known by us if true or false. Several experienced knowledgeable growers think it is true, and others agree to this, so who are we to say they are wrong???

May be the only way to find out is to actually grow the AK-47 out yourself to see what YOU think.

Sincerely,
Simon

p.s. We are very much interested in getting clones from people who are certain to have a Cherry AK-47. This should lead to creating a standard on what the 'Cherry' pheno is. Till then we can only give the information given above when asked about the 'Cherry AK-47 phenotype'.

bluntmassa1 · Dec 24, 2012

the thing I don't understand is how breeders loose their original parents atleast people on forums say it all the time. but I saw a post from shantibaba where he said he has back-ups of all his parent plants in 5 different countries I would think most of the bigger breeders would do the same espeacially ak-47, blue berry, sensi star, etc. but no way in hell can sensi star be the same as its now feminized so obviously the fathers not used. also all the breeders that have gone fem seeds are not gonna have the same as when they where regular cause their not using the same genetics. but I hear it all the time I even heard shantibaba lost his parent stock but that was a post from arjan, lol. but I doubt it if he really does have his parent stock in 5 different countries I know I would if I had a parent stock like shantibaba.

canna_420 · Dec 24, 2012

You know tony at sagarmath sells the as they were when Simon-Tony splitt from i think was sacred seeds... I forget now but it was nt seriouse seeds

canna_420 · Dec 24, 2012

bluntmassa1 said:
the thing I don't understand is how breeders loose their original mothers atleast people on forums say it all the time. but I saw a post from shantibaba where he said he has back-ups of all his parent plants in 5 different countries I would think most of the bigger breeders would do the same espeacially ak-47, blue berry, sensi star, etc. but no way in hell can sensi star be the same as its now feminized so obviously the fathers not used. also all the breeders that have gone fem seeds are not gonna have the same as when they where regular cause their not using the same genetics. but I hear it all the time I even heard shantibaba lost his parent stock but that was a post from arjan, lol. but I doubt it if he really does have his parent stock in 5 different countries I know I would if I had a parent stock like shantibaba.

Thing is though many "Big breeders" either aint so big or have a trust issue.

I meen giving someone your clones he could run his own lines cheaper.....
It does and as happened. (breeder steve is ment to have done this)

and as a fan boy of MNS well sorta was.. I do see something in Shanti lossing his moms-dads. Why did he have to reseed looking for mums then??
He as posts on this to. I dont like to think of it but Shanti does contradict himself alot on his forum. Maybe thats cause he is now a Wineo (wine snob whatever) and forgets half of it..

Jogro · Dec 24, 2012

mrueeda said:
i'm pretty sure that every single well known strain has been criticized being not good as before...and this simply doesn't make sense because there must be someone who has managed to keep the same genetics for that time...

Completely agree with you here.

"Every single well known BAND has been criticized for not being as good as before"
"Every single well known DIRECTOR has been criticized for not being as good as before".

Welcome to the world of internet criticism trollery!

A bit more seriously, its hard to know how reliable a criticism like this really is, even if its made in complete sincerity. The only way you're really going to know if a strain was better 20 years ago, is to compare two recently and similarly grown plants; one with 20 year old genetics, and one with current genetics. Needless to say, its fairly unlikely that any/many of the critics have actually done this "Pepsi challenge". to do that you have to either germinate some old ceeds out of storage, or manage to find a 20+ year old maintained mother plant.

I'll tell you that when I smoked William's Wonder, it was undoubtedly the most potent strain I had ever tried to that point. When you're accustomed to schwagg or just mediocre commercial stuff, and suddenly you smoke something like Williams Wonder you remember! But its been a long time since I tried it, and I've had a lot of other potent stuff since then. If I were to smoke some today, I don't know if I'd be as blown away, even if the quality were identical to the stuff from '94.

That's why i'm led to the first option...In your answer for example you nominate NL and i totally agree that was some dank ass weed even on par with todays monsters, but if u ask around every single person will tell you that the original NL doesnt exist anymore, the line has changed etc etc...true ? false ? Maybe your right, thats just the medium level that has rised so that for example even a great strain like NL now seems less appealing than what it was back in the day...

These are very good questions. There happens to be a little bit of discussion on this very topic in this recent thread here:

https://www.rollitup.org/seed-strain-reviews/601395-breeder-has-true-nl-5-a.html

Again, just as you suggested above, I find it very hard to believe that a super-popular, widely distributed, award winning, famous line of this quality has completely disappeared. There just have to be people who have been maintaining this in clone or seed form for 20 years.

With Northern lights in particular, I know as a fact that there are a small number of commercial seed manufacturers who are creating those particular ceeds for a number of brands, who sell them under their own private label. So in this particular case, I think much/most of what gets labelled as "Northern lights" simply isn't the best representation of that line, even if it is genetically related.

Jogro · Dec 24, 2012

bluntmassa1 said:
the thing I don't understand is how breeders loose their original parents atleast people on forums say it all the time. but I saw a post from shantibaba where he said he has back-ups of all his parent plants in 5 different countries I would think most of the bigger breeders would do the same espeacially ak-47, blue berry, sensi star, etc. but no way in hell can sensi star be the same as its now feminized so obviously the fathers not used. also all the breeders that have gone fem seeds are not gonna have the same as when they where regular cause their not using the same genetics. but I hear it all the time I even heard shantibaba lost his parent stock but that was a post from arjan, lol. but I doubt it if he really does have his parent stock in 5 different countries I know I would if I had a parent stock like shantibaba.

Losing parents is easier than you might think.

It can happen via busts, accident (eg, light falls down), negligence, disease, pests, etc.

Its hard to maintain the same exact plant for 20 years.

I don't know if Shantibaba really maintains five separate mother plants of each of his lines in five separate countries (has he really claimed that?), but I'd be pretty shocked if he did NOT maintain at LEAST multiple caches of genetics in CEED form in more than one country. That's pretty much SOP for big breeders now, and its one of the only ways to hedge against jurisdictional/legal risk.

Note that one way to maintain genetics this way is to gift elite clones of your mother plants to select trusted private growers. This is done with the understanding that one day you may need to come back and reclaim a clone "in case of emergency". I know a few breeders who do this.

Is there still a strain as good as it's meant to be ???

mrueeda

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Relaxed

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canna_420

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Jogro

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redfrogs

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mrueeda

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mrueeda

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bluntmassa1

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canna_420

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canna_420

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Jogro

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Jogro

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