Hermaphrodite tendencies.

kona gold · May 25, 2018

Aloha.
I am noticing a trend I today's seeds, compared to when I first started buying seeds almost 20 years ago.
Back then, I didn't get any herm issues with seeds.
Nowadays, so many herms seem to appear. Even from so-called good breeders.
What has happened??
You guys have some theory's as to why, if you have noticed a similar trend?

Shua1991 · May 25, 2018

Flavor of week, hype and how the seed-making industry has changed slightly in the last 2 decades. I started growing bagseed about 10 yrs ago, so I can't comment on how many herms would be normal, breeder's seeds are almost always much better than the bagseed when it comes to stability.(imo)

dabby duck · May 25, 2018

If most of the work you express is female, chances are more likely for females, gynoecious, to appear.
People dont smoke the male, usually, lol

And is more hermaphroditism actually appearing or is it monoecious. I have seen lots of nanners and they were never hermies, I wish non botanists would realize this, to figure out the problem, first, and as knowl3dge to even adrress the question. Is monoeciousness coming over from lax hemp breeders, ibls or are we really expressing gynoeciousness by selfing females and not actually becoming hermaphrodites?

Its a loaded question with a ton of attributes, not trying to pick on the herm statement, but when it gets used, the other factors must be acknowledged too, or at least the chance of and I don't think riu is capable....

Are "herms" bad? I mean basically every elite cutting for the last 15 years was bagseed....

kona gold · May 25, 2018

I am not talking about female seeds.
I am talking about F1 crosses and subsequent generations.
I really appreciate Bodhi and what he brought/brings to the cannabis community.
But with everyone following suit, it is creating a shit storm! With not too many stabilizing strains, just doing an F1 of a clone only, it creates and F2 generation of crappy recessiveness!
Many are cool with this style of breeding, because everyone wants to pheno hunt for some reason? But when you go to make an F2 sometimes all the crap comes out!
And I consider nanners to be hermaphrodites.

dabby duck · May 25, 2018

kona gold said:
I am not talking about female seeds.
I am talking about F1 crosses and subsequent generations.
I really appreciate Bodhi and what he brought/brings to the cannabis community.
But with everyone following suit, it is creating a shit storm! With not too many stabilizing strains, just doing an F1 of a clone only, it creates and F2 generation of crappy recessiveness!
Many are cool with this style of breeding, because everyone wants to pheno hunt for some reason? But when you go to make an F2 sometimes all the crap comes out!
And I consider nanners to be hermaphrodites.

Thats fine about the nanners, what i was suggesting was to learn the actual componets of plant sexuality before making the same grandiose claims that have been made for decades, mainly by people who dont understand the different mechanisms that a plant produces offspring.
How can a nanner be a hermie if it only show female characteristics, and not both male and female at the same node, or male and female on different nodes on the same plant. now you just want to make stuff up to further your bullshit argument.
At least use the terminolgy properly or get called out.
I say that most nanners are gynoecious.....showing female from female, i mean its not bro science, so i can see how some are confused......

nonamedman420 · May 25, 2018

sensimilla is seedless weed. weed back in the 60's and early 70's then wasn't seedless. starting in the early to mid 70's sensimilla started coming around. bob dylan actually said sensimilla took the fun out of it. marijuana will try to make seeds, when it's weeks into flower, and hasn't been pollinated. it can produce nanners to keep it's dna alive, to make babies, even if no males are present to produce pollen. a female can make nanners, this is not a hermaphrodite. there is a huge difference. to answer your question, the pressure from a genetic standpoint, to produce offspring, is here when growing seedless marijuana. if it was pollinated naturally, it would not produce the nanners. it's only because we're blocking it's ability to reproduce, it makes sure it can all by itself by self-pollination by producing nanners. they don't even make many seeds, people chop whole corps as a knee-jerk reaction to nanners. hermy's on the other hand, i'd chop it if it wasn't the only thing i were growing at the time. hope this oversimplification helps.

dabby duck · May 25, 2018

Another anectdote before I am shooed away....blueberry, djs, according to phylos is grouped with hemp in genetic lineage, imagine that, a notable "hermie" strain is possibly closely related to mostly monoecious, hemp.

And I harp this with no snark

There is distinction between monoecious
Dioecious
And hermaphroditism

You cant use all three as one and it is central to the argument and discussion about actual tendencies.

jayblaze710 · May 25, 2018

dabby duck said:
Thats fine about the nanners, what i was suggesting was to learn the actual componets of plant sexuality before making the same grandiose claims that have been made for decades, mainly by people who dont understand the different mechanisms that a plant produces offspring.
How can a nanner be a hermie if it only show female characteristics, and not both male and female at the same node, or male and female on different nodes on the same plant. now you just want to make stuff up to further your bullshit argument.
At least use the terminolgy properly or get called out.
I say that most nanners are gynoecious.....showing female from female, i mean its not bro science, so i can see how some are confused......

Cannabis is dioecious. That’s a fact. Cannabis has heteromorphic sex chromosomes, just like humans, that determine the sex of the plant. Plants sex phenotype is much more labile than humans, which means intersex tendencies are much more common.

jayblaze710 · May 25, 2018

dabby duck said:
Another anectdote before I am shooed away....blueberry, djs, according to phylos is grouped with hemp in genetic lineage, imagine that, a notable "hermie" strain is possibly closely related to mostly monoecious, hemp.

And I harp this with no snark

There is distinction between monoecious
Dioecious
And hermaphroditism

You cant use all three as one and it is central to the argument and discussion about actual tendencies.

Hemp is also diecious. There are monoecious cultivars of hemp, but they are rare are are not the ancestral state of hemp sex.

jayblaze710 · May 25, 2018

kona gold said:
Aloha.
I am noticing a trend I today's seeds, compared to when I first started buying seeds almost 20 years ago.
Back then, I didn't get any herm issues with seeds.
Nowadays, so many herms seem to appear. Even from so-called good breeders.
What has happened??
You guys have some theory's as to why, if you have noticed a similar trend?

Here’s my thoughts.

First, practically all popular strains have herm tendencies today. Cookies, chem, OG, sour, etc... Whether it’s random chance or there’s some connection, high potency tends to be accompanied by herm tendencies. If you’re working with those strains or crosses of them, expect some herms.

Second, rose-tinted glasses. It’s horribly common to hear all the old-timers talk about how much better weed was back in their day. And they’re full of shit. Everyone just likes to believe everything was better when they were younger. Plenty of people wish landraces were still a thing, when the fact is landraces herm like crazy and show lots of phenotypic variation.

Yes, plenty of popular strains today herm. But so did plenty of popular strains 20 years ago. You just prefer not to remember that.

dabby duck · May 25, 2018

jayblaze710 said:
Cannabis is dioecious. That’s a fact. Cannabis has heteromorphic sex chromosomes, just like humans, that determine the sex of the plant. Plants sex phenotype is much more labile than humans, which means intersex tendencies are much more common.

It can also be gynoecious and monecious, thats what nanners and hermies are, in fact not dioeciouse, so cannabis is not all dioecious, which makes the argument fall apart, excluding the more labile genes

more labile equals intersex? Meaning what? Is that a confirmation of cannabis being at least monecious and dioecous?

dabby duck · May 25, 2018

jayblaze710 said:
Hemp is also diecious. There are monoecious cultivars of hemp, but they are rare are are not the ancestral state of hemp sex.

Which just so happens to be genotypically related to a strain displaying monoecious traits phenotypically, how can you say it dioecious only,and only ancestral? How can a dioecious strain show monoecuous traits? If it isnt monoecious?

jayblaze710 · May 25, 2018

dabby duck said:
It can also be gynoecious and monecious, thats what nanners and hermies are, in fact not dioeciouse, so cannabis is not all dioecious, which makes the argument fall apart, excluding the more labile genes

more labile equals intersex? Meaning what? Is that a confirmation of cannabis being at least monecious and dioecous?

No. Cannabis is dioecious. It is. It’s just not uncommon for females to show intersex tendencies, meaning throwing the occasional nanner or male flower. It’s natural state is to be dioecious. There are some hemp cultivars that are monoecious but that evolved from a dioecious state.

Gynoecious just refers to the female plants of a dioecious population.

You’re basically arguing about definitions of scientific terms I don’t think you fully understand.

jayblaze710 · May 25, 2018

dabby duck said:
Which just so happens to be genotypically related to a strain displaying monoecious traits phenotypically, how can you say it dioecious only,and only ancestral? How can a dioecious strain show monoecuous traits? If it isnt monoecious?

Some hemp cultivars, only SOME it’s rare, evolved to be monoecious. The natural state of all cannabis is to be dioecious.

dabby duck · May 25, 2018

jayblaze710 said:
Some hemp cultivars, only SOME it’s rare, evolved to be monoecious. The natural state of all cannabis is to be dioecious.

https://hortnews.extension.iastate.edu/faq/how-do-gynoecious-cucumber-varieties-differ-other-varieties

jayblaze710 said:
No. Cannabis is dioecious. It is. It’s just not uncommon for females to show intersex tendencies, meaning throwing the occasional nanner or male flower. It’s natural state is to be dioecious. There are some hemp cultivars that are monoecious but that evolved from a dioecious state.
Most french cultivars are monecious, not ancestral and not rare either.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233028847_Flowering_Dynamics_in_Monoecious_and_Dioecious_Hemp_Genotypes

Gynoecious just refers to the female plants of a dioecious population.

You’re basically arguing about definitions of scientific terms I don’t think you fully understand.

Gynoecious plants are females that produce females, can only be from dioecious plants, cucumbers being one example, now you are just getting personal and you too are making it up to suit your argument.

You keep making claims about dioecious, but post something other than an opinion that backs your claim, or keep telling me I am wrong while ignoring all the information.

Nanners are or are not indicative of monoecious? I say that is the exact definition, male and female reproductive parts on seperate nodes in the same plants. If its being going on for decades, how is it rare,that is contradictory. The evidence is enough,to NOT make a statement that there is only dioececy with random or extremely small occurences otherwise........No.

I was also taught the dioecious thing early on, working botanist, blah blah blah, but then you can clearly see the deviation in hemp and herms, with neither being rare, I would think this would make you stop and think for a second about that.....

kona gold · May 25, 2018

jayblaze710 said:
Here’s my thoughts.

First, practically all popular strains have herm tendencies today. Cookies, chem, OG, sour, etc... Whether it’s random chance or there’s some connection, high potency tends to be accompanied by herm tendencies. If you’re working with those strains or crosses of them, expect some herms.

Second, rose-tinted glasses. It’s horribly common to hear all the old-timers talk about how much better weed was back in their day. And they’re full of shit. Everyone just likes to believe everything was better when they were younger. Plenty of people wish landraces were still a thing, when the fact is landraces herm like crazy and show lots of phenotypic variation.

Yes, plenty of popular strains today herm. But so did plenty of popular strains 20 years ago. You just prefer not to remember that.

That's your take on that, and that's fine.
When I bought Northern Lights, Neville's Haze, Blueberry..........I rarely ran into, if any, hermaphrodites.
Those strains were mostly bred into ibl's or were from worked crosses.
Lots of today's breeders are doing F1's of unstable parents.
That's why!

kona gold · May 25, 2018

dabby duck said:
Thats fine about the nanners, what i was suggesting was to learn the actual componets of plant sexuality before making the same grandiose claims that have been made for decades, mainly by people who dont understand the different mechanisms that a plant produces offspring.
How can a nanner be a hermie if it only show female characteristics, and not both male and female at the same node, or male and female on different nodes on the same plant. now you just want to make stuff up to further your bullshit argument.
At least use the terminolgy properly or get called out.
I say that most nanners are gynoecious.....showing female from female, i mean its not bro science, so i can see how some are confused......

@dabby duck .....what kind of shit are you spewing?
Cannabis is not monoecious, or gynoecious, or whatever that is!?!
It's dioecious!

kona gold · May 25, 2018

nonamedman420 said:
sensimilla is seedless weed. weed back in the 60's and early 70's then wasn't seedless. starting in the early to mid 70's sensimilla started coming around. bob dylan actually said sensimilla took the fun out of it. marijuana will try to make seeds, when it's weeks into flower, and hasn't been pollinated. it can produce nanners to keep it's dna alive, to make babies, even if no males are present to produce pollen. a female can make nanners, this is not a hermaphrodite. there is a huge difference. to answer your question, the pressure from a genetic standpoint, to produce offspring, is here when growing seedless marijuana. if it was pollinated naturally, it would not produce the nanners. it's only because we're blocking it's ability to reproduce, it makes sure it can all by itself by self-pollination by producing nanners. they don't even make many seeds, people chop whole corps as a knee-jerk reaction to nanners. hermy's on the other hand, i'd chop it if it wasn't the only thing i were growing at the time. hope this oversimplification helps.

Seeded weed can still produce balls and nanners!

jayblaze710 · May 25, 2018

dabby duck said:
https://hortnews.extension.iastate.edu/faq/how-do-gynoecious-cucumber-varieties-differ-other-varieties

Gynoecious plants are females that produce females, can only be from dioecious plants, cucumbers being one example, now you are just getting personal and you too are making it up to suit your argument.

You keep making claims about dioecious, but post something other than an opinion that backs your claim, or keep telling me I am wrong while ignoring all the information.

Nanners are or are not indicative of monoecious? I say that is the exact definition, male and female reproductive parts on seperate nodes in the same plants. If its being going on for decades, how is it rare,that is contradictory. The evidence is enough,to NOT make a statement that there is only dioececy with random or extremely small occurences otherwise........No.

I was also taught the dioecious thing early on, working botanist, blah blah blah, but then you can clearly see the deviation in hemp and herms, with neither being rare, I would think this would make you stop and think for a second about that.....

I spent 5 years working on a PhD in plant evolutionary genetics. I know what I’m talking about here.

Gynoecious refers to the female plants in a dioecious population. Androecious refers to the male plants in a dioecious population. Those are what those terms mean. There are no gynoecious species. Just gynoecious plants within a dioecious species.

You linked to a horticultural site describing a hybrid that was produced in order to only have female plants. You’re basically talking about feminized cannabis seeds. It doesn’t change how the species as a whole behaves.

If you want to be super technical about it, cannabis is polygamodioecy, which is a subset of dioecy where some plants may exhibit bisexual flowers or flowers of the opposite sex. It’s still dioecious.

But ultimately it’s a moot point. No matter what you call it, it doesn’t change the way cannabis exhibits sexual characteristics. It’s a dioecious plant, and sex is determined by the presence or absence of a Y chromosome.

dabby duck · May 25, 2018

jayblaze710 said:
I spent 5 years working on a PhD in plant evolutionary genetics. I know what I’m talking about here.

Gynoecious refers to the female plants in a dioecious population. Androecious refers to the male plants in a dioecious population. Those are what those terms mean. There are no gynoecious species. Just gynoecious plants within a dioecious species.

You linked to a horticultural site describing a hybrid that was produced in order to only have female plants. You’re basically talking about feminized cannabis seeds. It doesn’t change how the species as a whole behaves.

If you want to be super technical about it, cannabis is polygamodioecy, which is a subset of dioecy where some plants may exhibit bisexual flowers or flowers of the opposite sex. It’s still dioecious.

But ultimately it’s a moot point. No matter what you call it, it doesn’t change the way cannabis exhibits sexual characteristics. It’s a dioecious plant, and sex is determined by the presence or absence of a Y chromosome.

So what i have an advanced degree in forest ecolgy blah blah blah
Ok agree to disagree on gynu, andro, etc. Obviously you need to read more poulation dynamics dr. It is not just female, it is females making females exclusively, separate dynamic.

But in summary monecious hemp strains and nannered plants are just showing phenotype but arent really in the genotype, right....thats your assertion or am i wrong.

kona gold said:
@dabby duck .....what kind of shit are you spewing?
Cannabis is not monoecious, or gynoecious, or whatever that is!?!
It's dioecious!

Yet, monoecious plants exist and are spreading. Google french hemp and tell me something is still shit, I havent ever specified monoeciousness specific function, just that it exists, probably artificially, but we havent decoded the complete contig and scaffolds, to make that assertion, yet you and the Doctor are so sure....even making claims that monos are rare to non existent, yet two prominent example populations at least exist, why???????

Hermaphrodite tendencies.

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