Going Completely Organic.

bobbypyn said:

the point is EDTA is NOT ORGANIC and it's toxic to your beneficial bacteria. I don't care; use it all you want, but you're not organic, you're "organic based" if you do. in a finely tuned FULLY ORGANIC system, EDTA will drop your yeilds through the floor. so keep recommending it's use by all means, but don't tell people your product is organic cuz it ain't. I learned all this from the Cultivation Editor at Skunk Magazine so if you take umbrage with what I'm tellin ya, take it up with the Rev.

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Your right that EDTA is not organic but to go so far as to say it will effect yield is bull shit! Personaly I would be more worried about arsenic as it's in everything.

By the way one of the most use products is Cal-Mag and it has it, but I don't see anyone complaining about it or their yield.

Some organic compounds have the ability to form complexes with metal ions. In which metal ion is held fairly tight chemical bonds. The complexes form either linear or ring shaped, in which complex is called chelate (derived from Greek word meaning crab’s claw). Naturally occurring compounds acts as chelating agents such as proteins, peptides, carboxylic acids and amino acids. The EDTA (Ethyldiaminetetraacetic acid), also used to chelate metal ions. The effect of chelate increases with number of chelate rings. The ions from EDTA completely wrap up the entire metal ion from 6 positions. The complex that formed with EDTA will be greater than amino acid complex than nitrogen donor ligands or four carboxylic ligands. In fact iron appears the most particular element to keep soluble with pH. The EDTA is a great stabilizing agent that keeps iron soluble in pH fluctuations. The unusual property of EDTA as a chelating agent is its ability to chelate in 1:1 metal to EDTA complexes, which is a very strong proportion. From Technaflora Plant Products, BC Boost, Awesome Blossom, Magical and Root 66 contains Fe EDTA which ranged from 0.05 to 0.1%. As EDTA is synthetic product, it can be used for synthetic products only. According to OMRI regulations the products that contain EDTA will not be certified as organic product.

it also shoves aluminum into your plant. how do i know? use EDTA on one plant, not on another. Nuke the resultant buds in the microwave. the EDTA treated plant with spark all to hell. all i needed to know; right there. If a system has it's myco and benny bacteria balanced, EDTA wreaks havoc as soon as the media gets even close to dry. oh, and.... IT'S NOT ORGANIC! but like i say, use it all ya want. enjoy your aluminum!

bobbypyn said:

it also shoves aluminum into your plant. how do i know? use EDTA on one plant, not on another. Nuke the resultant buds in the microwave. the EDTA treated plant with spark all to hell. all i needed to know; right there. If a system has it's myco and benny bacteria balanced, EDTA wreaks havoc as soon as the media gets even close to dry. oh, and.... IT'S NOT ORGANIC! but like i say, use it all ya want. enjoy your aluminum!

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Nope not buying it, the sparking is caused by Magnesium left over from incorrect flushing, same thing in a joint you see sparks or pops it's the Mag. Next.....

Unlike organic acids, rumor has it (only saying rumor because this is the internet and who tf am i right?) that EDTA (which is synthesized from formaldehyde and sodium cyanide) is considered by the plant to be a foreign particle and thus is not taken up by the roots. This is either a good or a bad thing, depending on your perspective. It can be considered a good thing because who the fuck wants to be smoking EDTA (or any toxic by-products possibly formed due to combustion of the herb)? Then again it might not be such a great thing, because EDTA has a particular affinity for heavy metals and so can also increase their absorption by the plant.

In my opinion it is something to avoid; products that contain EDTA typically contain other synthetic salts as well. Furthermore, that shit just isn't necessary in my garden. Mother nature and millions of years of co-evolution has evolved some wonderfully fucking exceptional means by which nutrients are recycled, retained and assimilated in the rhizosphere. Maybe small amounts of it do negligible harm but I still don't see what posses a person to use such products in an organic grow, Cal-Mag for instance why the heck would an organic grower need that? Cal-Mag+ is the one with the EDTA, unless they don't make the original stuff anymore or something I don't use it so I wouldn't really know. Although I have used the Organicare Calplex, cheap soluble calcium carbonate... can't go wrong there.

I read that issue of Skunk with the Rev saying Botanicare products all have EDTA and, while I respect much of the other info he has to offer, I just don't buy that one. Primarily because I believe he wrote that a customer service rep told him that over the phone and let us be honest what the fuck do those people know 90% of the time? They pay these people to answer phones; they probably don't even grow legal plants and there is a hells chance in snowballs that they've any clue what ethylenediaminetetra-acetic acid is. Of course, there are Botanicare products with EDTA and probably other synthetic chelates as well but I seriously doubt that there is any in Liquid Karma or Pure Blend Pro and certainly not in the Organicare line. I have also e-mailed Botanicare about Liquid Karma to verify it was completely organic, and I trust the response I received from the representative that might have a clue and a chance to do some research over some poor fool on the phone.

Finally, I collect rain water as often as I can and the average TDS seems to be around 9 ppm; the lowest was 003 ppm. Is rain water bad for plants?

Ohh yah that's what I was going to say:
I don't think being solely dependent on liquid nutrients even those like PBP is good organics, either. Stuff like that has zero organic matter... none. It is good for foliar perhaps but doesn't do much for the soil food web.

cerberus said:

no no no. don't use aquarium chems for the water your putting in organic soil, let it (your city water from tap) sit out for 24hr (while being mixed with a pump or air stone) and let the chems (chlorine) evap out..

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chlorine is sort of a catch 22. It kills off microbes and bacteria but trace elemnts of chlorine stimulates root growth in ionic form, as inorganic salts that dissolve in nutrient solutions. yes that's not organic but just saying.........

woodsmaneh! said:

Nope not buying it, the sparking is caused by Magnesium left over from incorrect flushing, same thing in a joint you see sparks or pops it's the Mag. Next.....

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magnesium just helps activate enzymes for chlorophyll production. the sparking from not flushing properly is from either inorganics not being flushed and /or improper drying and curing.

i personally think letting your water sit out is bad. yes the chlorine evaporrates, so does the water and making the chloromine and other chems that don't evaporate more concentrate. which will make your leaves dry n wrinkled almost crispy. just buy a pur water filter. 23 dol at home depot or walmart. also not every town uses chlorine. some use chloromine instead or they use both, so letting your tap water sit out is bad. if your area uses well water, that will have very high amounts of alkaline.

hyroot said:

chlorine is sort of a catch 22. It kills off microbes and bacteria but trace elemnts of chlorine stimulates root growth in ionic form, as inorganic salts that dissolve in nutrient solutions. yes that's not organic but just saying.........

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true but a RO machine has its own problems.. its a balancing act for sure..

in a dream set up? find a clean aqueduct, that has a natural (constant) PH of 6-7.. lol good luck

cerberus said:

true but a RO machine has its own problems.. its a balancing act for sure..

in a dream set up? find a clean aqueduct, that has a natural (constant) PH of 6-7.. lol good luck

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just got to go to those fresh water streams and rivers with all the deer piss in em. bomness lol