Flooding/Timing Issues

Greenkace · Jul 15, 2011

Hey there peoples of the Internet,
I have a 100 gal res below a 4x8 table
H&G nutes @ 1/2 strength
Water 77
Air 78
Age 3 weeks, sweet tooth from seed
8" square pots filled with hydroton with small rockwool cubes sitting near the top
Pump is a 550 gal/hr, on the web it says it's for a 50 gal res

It takes about 21 mins to get the water to just under the rockwool. Then I takes a good 40 mins to drain. I was watering every 6 hours (3x) then after seeing a great deal of cupping and drooping i swithched to 2x/day with no change. My question is this: is the water level as important as the flood duration? If I flood for 10-15 mins it only floods an inch or two of the pots, is that a problem? After each feeding they all droop. I just called the hydro shop and I got no help, they told me maybe a bigger pump The guy at the hydro store sold me this pump and told me it was what I needed, was he wrong?

Thanks a lot
GK

youngdog · Jul 15, 2011

I might be wrong but if your res is above your table how is it draining at all. you may wanna get your res below the table height that should speed drainging up faster. the pump fills the table up in 21 minuites thats not bad it should be draining much faster than 40 minuites thou maybe 10 minuites. just my opinion.

Greenkace · Jul 15, 2011

Damn typo, it's below my table...

Springtucky · Jul 15, 2011

try once a day. That seems way too long for fill and drain bro. I have 4x4 tables (although im adding a 4x8 in a few weeks) and it takes roughly three minutes to fill and six to drain I use a big pump (i have to check but the model is Aquaviva 1300, i believe its 1300 gallon per hour) I'd say if they told you maybe a bigger pump and they sold you the small one then they should let you bring that back and pay difference, but if they're anything like the hydro shops around here then you're stuck. It sounds like what happens to my plants if I manually flood and forget to shut it off, on a good flood schedule they bounce back in no time. I cannot stress how important it is to monitor your resevoir ph, it will slide around a lot. So will your EC levels in hydroton after some salt build up, do you see any build up on rocks at all?

Greenkace · Jul 15, 2011

There doesn't seem to be any salt build up on the hydroton yet. I'm getting some big swings in ppm at times but it's generally going down everyday (which I understand means they are eating food). I have a Hanna constant monitor system so I'm able to keep the ph 5.8-6 all the time. I feel that my issues are water stress bc all my other levels are right on the money except for my flood/drain numbers.

panhead · Jul 15, 2011

I run the exact sized table,infact i run 8 4x8 tables like yours & i see several things i question.

The 1st is the 8 inch net pots,thats a massive pot for a 3 week old plant,remember the larger the pot the more medium to get waterlogged.

The next question i have is how long it takes your table to drain,having a 45 minute drain coupled with a 20 minute flood the hour long flood is cutting off too much oxygen to the roots,i'd look into how you have the pump & drain set up,then make changes so the drain starts moving water back into the res within a few seconds of the pump comming on,my 4x8 tables are bone dry 10 minutes after the pump kicks off,you should also be sure you have the pump side set up to its lowest point with no extensions,this will allow the pump to drain water back through the pump line the instant the pump kicks off.

If for some reason you cant drain the table much faster & are stuck with such a long flood i would add air stones directly to the table to ensure oxygen to the roots,im convinced your plants are semi drowning from such a long flood on top of water logging from a rockwool base with too much medium.

I used to use the same method as you are using & flood times were hard to get perfect,i found most problems to lie with mediums,they hold too much water.

Ive since stopped using a medium in any real amount & have had ultimate success.

I set my 4x8's up like this.

Drain side of table 1 inch lower than pump side,res directly under the pump with the res burried in the earth for geothermal cooling,no heat issues ever,i make sure that the drain/return hose has 1 inch per foot fall for fast drain,normal drain time is just over 10 minutes from pump stop.

I use 5 inch net pots,clones in sponge plugs only,i refuse to use rockwool ever again as it gets water logged every flood,i put a natural sponge in the bottom of each net pot & insert the clone,then surround the.clone with washed hydrorock that will not float.

I then cover the entire table top with panda plastic for light block & root zone humidity,i cut precise holes in the plastic top & insert the net pot,the only surface that sees light is the 5 inch area on the top of the pot,light block is paramount for an extended root structure past the net pot.

After all net pots are loaded i set the timers to flood for 15 minutes flood at the top of every hour,i have a flood every hour,since there is damm near no medium except for the sponge & a handfull of hydrorock its impossible to over water & the plants respond great to the dark moist root zone.

Plant growth is twice as explosive as when i filled net pots with hydroton with one flood daily,the pitch black root zone allows for root masses that extend 18 inches out of every pot,when i uncover the table at harvest the bottom of each table is a solid root mass,setting up this way puts flood & drain more like aeroponic growing than a standard flood & drain.

If possible try this exact method,its a bit more setting up but the panda plastic is cheaper than buying a factory lid,it is easily cleaned through out the grow & is reuseable many times.

Getting away from using a medium in any significant amount was the best upgrade or advancement i ever made,this made things much easier to manage,less or no medium makes ph'ing a snap with no ph swings & only minimul adjustments needed,sometimes i dont even need to adjust the ph for the entire 10 days i use a res before dumping,overwatering is impossible as well.

doniawon · Jul 15, 2011

panhead said:
I run the exact sized table,infact i run 8 4x8 tables like yours & i see several things i question.

The 1st is the 8 inch net pots,thats a massive pot for a 3 week old plant,remember the larger the pot the more medium to get waterlogged.

The next question i have is how long it takes your table to drain,having a 45 minute drain coupled with a 20 minute flood the hour long flood is cutting off too much oxygen to the roots,i'd look into how you have the pump & drain set up,then make changes so the drain starts moving water back into the res within a few seconds of the pump comming on,my 4x8 tables are bone dry 10 minutes after the pump kicks off,you should also be sure you have the pump side set up to its lowest point with no extensions,this will allow the pump to drain water back through the pump line the instant the pump kicks off.

If for some reason you cant drain the table much faster & are stuck with such a long flood i would add air stones directly to the table to ensure oxygen to the roots,im convinced your plants are semi drowning from such a long flood on top of water logging from a rockwool base with too much medium.

I used to use the same method as you are using & flood times were hard to get perfect,i found most problems to lie with mediums,they hold too much water.

Ive since stopped using a medium in any real amount & have had ultimate success.

I set my 4x8's up like this.

Drain side of table 1 inch lower than pump side,res directly under the pump with the res burried in the earth for geothermal cooling,no heat issues ever,i make sure that the drain/return hose has 1 inch per foot fall for fast drain,normal drain time is just over 10 minutes from pump stop.

I use 5 inch net pots,clones in sponge plugs only,i refuse to use rockwool ever again as it gets water logged every flood,i put a natural sponge in the bottom of each net pot & insert the clone,then surround the.clone with washed hydrorock that will not float.

I then cover the entire table top with panda plastic for light block & root zone humidity,i cut precise holes in the plastic top & insert the net pot,the only surface that sees light is the 5 inch area on the top of the pot,light block is paramount for an extended root structure past the net pot.

After all net pots are loaded i set the timers to flood for 15 minutes flood at the top of every hour,i have a flood every hour,since there is damm near no medium except for the sponge & a handfull of hydrorock its impossible to over water & the plants respond great to the dark moist root zone.

Plant growth is twice as explosive as when i filled net pots with hydroton with one flood daily,the pitch black root zone allows for root masses that extend 18 inches out of every pot,when i uncover the table at harvest the bottom of each table is a solid root mass,setting up this way puts flood & drain more like aeroponic growing than a standard flood & drain.

If possible try this exact method,its a bit more setting up but the panda plastic is cheaper than buying a factory lid,it is easily cleaned through out the grow & is reuseable many times.

Getting away from using a medium in any significant amount was the best upgrade or advancement i ever made,this made things much easier to manage,less or no medium makes ph'ing a snap with no ph swings & only minimul adjustments needed,sometimes i dont even need to adjust the ph for the entire 10 days i use a res before dumping,overwatering is impossible as well.

any pictures?? i kicked my 3" rw cubes out, that i had in my 5" pots of hydroton. im flooding 3 times and im intrested in flooding everyhour if i can get away with it? just curious

panhead · Jul 15, 2011

doniawon said:
any pictures?? i kicked my 3" rw cubes out, that i had in my 5" pots of hydroton. im flooding 3 times and im intrested in flooding everyhour if i can get away with it? just curious

Right now im a victim of technology illetericy,we gave up all the computers in the home in favor of other newer devices such as ipad's & iphones so we could all be linked to the club24/7,our I.T.guy set it all up for us & i never thought about posting pics so i never asked,now i have things on here i dont want anybody to see so im kinda fucked on getting help learning.

I have yet to figure out how to use these things for anything other than surfing & posting,im still trying to figure out how to take a pic & post that pic from the smart phone i now use for internet access.

However im working on learning how,my sons will come to visit soon & when they come they both assured me they can set me straight & get me posting pics.

The difference between using mediums with few flood times vs no medium with hourly flood times was huge for me,ph is much steadier without using additives,plant vigor is much better,any changes needed in feeding shows results much faster,plants are happier than ever,buds show growth faster with quite a bit of additional bud weight at harvest,at harvest after i cut out the net pots from the root mass im left with a root mass that rolls up like a peice of carpet & thats about it,no scum around the top from clay,no dead veg matter clogging drain ect,i just roll up the roots & wipe the table with h202 lightly to disinfect ,reinstall the plastic top in about 5 minutes using clamps & its ready to reload,the whole cleaning process takes about an hour & the tables are ready for fresh plants.

mrduke · Jul 15, 2011

hey pan what if you used a piece of plywood wrapped with panda with your holes drilled in it to cover your table, then you could reuse it over and over. also you say a 5 inch net pot and just the starter plug? is the rest of the pot filled with hydrton? how many plants per table ?

hijack compleate sorry op

doniawon · Jul 16, 2011

panhead said:
Right now im a victim of technology illetericy,we gave up all the computers in the home in favor of other newer devices such as ipad's & iphones so we could all be linked to the club24/7,our I.T.guy set it all up for us & i never thought about posting pics so i never asked,now i have things on here i dont want anybody to see so im kinda fucked on getting help learning.

I have yet to figure out how to use these things for anything other than surfing & posting,im still trying to figure out how to take a pic & post that pic from the smart phone i now use for internet access.

However im working on learning how,my sons will come to visit soon & when they come they both assured me they can set me straight & get me posting pics.

The difference between using mediums with few flood times vs no medium with hourly flood times was huge for me,ph is much steadier without using additives,plant vigor is much better,any changes needed in feeding shows results much faster,plants are happier than ever,buds show growth faster with quite a bit of additional bud weight at harvest,at harvest after i cut out the net pots from the root mass im left with a root mass that rolls up like a peice of carpet & thats about it,no scum around the top from clay,no dead veg matter clogging drain ect,i just roll up the roots & wipe the table with h202 lightly to disinfect ,reinstall the plastic top in about 5 minutes using clamps & its ready to reload,the whole cleaning process takes about an hour & the tables are ready for fresh plants.

thanks pan,, sorry op.

Greenkace · Jul 16, 2011

No worries, always opportunities to learn, thank you all for the responses. I picked up the 1000gal/hr today and some elbows to make sure the hoses stay above the res. I'm pretty sure my timing issues are going to end now. Again, thank you all

Peace

Gk

panhead · Jul 16, 2011

mrduke said:
hey pan what if you used a piece of plywood wrapped with panda with your holes drilled in it to cover your table, then you could reuse it over and over. also you say a 5 inch net pot and just the starter plug? is the rest of the pot filled with hydrton? how many plants per table ?

hijack compleate sorry op

I thought about plywood but it would be extremely difficult to keep it watertight,after taking into consideration molds,fungi & warping issues i decided against any wood,way too much work keeping it dry.

The way i use the plastic it is reusable,heres the low down.

I cut the plastic to be 6 inches larger on all sides then lay the plastic loosley over the table,i roughly square up all sides & begin clamping from one end,i then take the other end & pull it tight & clamp it down,i work the other long sides in the same fashion,pull tight & clamp,after all sides are secure i cut holes for the net pots.

I use a net pot & trace outlines using a marker,the holes i cut smaller than the marking to get a tight fit when the pots are set in,a snug fit is better than a perfect fit,i tried both ways.

The clones start out in Root Riot sponge plugs,i put a peice of natural sponge in the bottom of the pots which takes up about 2 inches,the sponge is car was sponges that are very porus,then i set the clone on top the sponge,i tear chunks of sponge & wedge in the sides to lock the clone in tight,then i fill any gaps in the sponge & cover the top of the sponge with a hydroton substitute called hydrorock,same stuff as hydroton only it wont float or roll,it stays put in the pot.

How many holes/plants is up to the grower,i cut 58 holes for pots,i also cut holes directly above the flood & drain inlets for inspection or cleaning,those holes i cover with a peice of plastic & secure one side with white tape so its a flap blocking any light but still accessable.

Ive been reusing the plastic from all the tables,all it needs is a quick wipe down & its ready to reinstall over & over again,how long its reused is entirely up to the grower,im closing in on a year now with the same sheets.

Attaching the plastic was a challenge at the start,i tried tape but it wasnt so good,then i found the little squeeze clamps at home depot, 3 for $1,they look kinda like a clip used to keep a bag of chips sealed,& they work like a dream,they keep the plastic tight & once the net pots are installed the plastic is very stiff creating a solid surface that can take weight without sagging.

It really is the best method of flood & drain ive used,everything stays so damm clean plus root growth that equals areo grows,more roots is more bud in hydro,with a flood every hour the water stays airaited as well so no need for airstones in the res,i have mine on timers for 30 minutes every 12 hours.

Flooding/Timing Issues

Greenkace

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youngdog

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Greenkace

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Springtucky

Well-Known Member

Greenkace

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panhead

Well-Known Member

doniawon

Well-Known Member

panhead

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mrduke

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doniawon

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Greenkace

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panhead

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