DIY LED leaves go darkgreen, why?

Hi,
before using my led construction on something valueable im testing it on a tomato.

Please have a look at the pictures. Both were outside and looked similar (the 2nd tomato was already a bit higher in size). Then i put one under led 12/12, the other one outdoors, its been 5 days. The leaves went dark green.
Is it bad or good? Also the colour of the leaves near the bottom looks unnatural, so i guess its bad -but also the outdoor tomato has some "bad" leaves at the bottom.
Do you have any ideas why?

Also the dark green tomato seems to develop more roots, reaching out of its container

Same strain?? same level of Nitrogen?? Darker one looks slightly overwatered.........and do you have any 660nm red leds in your DIY panel?? causes faster root development

Hi,
thx for ur answer.
1. yea 5 days ago they looked alike
2. same soil
3. i gave it each day a sip of water, i dont think i overwatered it, but not certain. The outdoor tomato probably actually got more water, as i used a big hose for watering my outdoor plants.
4. yea currently i use 20x 660, 6 blue, 8 CW, and 5 WW until 20x 630 and 10x WW arrive

both develop a blossom, so i dont think the dark one is on the brink of death (atleast yet)

Is it possible that it is too much light, all @ 650mA? But i read that then they would loose colour (in case of too aggressive blue), true? The leds r like max 10cm above.

Picture: i raised the led panel

lax123 said:

Hi,
thx for ur answer.
1. yea 5 days ago they looked alike
2. same soil
3. i gave it each day one little sip of water, i dont think i overwatered it, but not certain. The outdoor tomato probably actually got more water, as i used a big hose for watering my outdoor plants.
4. yea currently i use 20x 660, 6 blue, 8 CW, and 5 WW until 20x 630 and 10x WW arrive

both develop a blossom, so i dont think the dark one is on the brink of death

Is it possible that it is too much light, all @ 650mA? But i read that then they would loose colour (in case of too aggressive blue), true?

Click to expand...

If they are the same strain then their is an issue......cooler temps??? in the led room........ don't forget that transpiration is way slower under leds; water less/add more perlite in the medium under leds.

your led configuration is very "aggressive" IMO...........too much blue(cw has enough already) and too much 660nm red.....cut-out the blue and add the ww and remove 3/4 of the 660nm and replace with 630nm. Should help........see how it works for you with your testers

thx,
"water less", I will try that.
Temperature in that cabinet is about 22-24°C @ "daytime" and 17-18 during the dark period.

your led configuration is very "aggressive"

Click to expand...

You think that also about my complete set, when all leds arrived?:
15x ww, 8x cw, 20x 660, 20x 630, 6x blue

I thought what u said about colour mix is true considering flowering Phase, also when its just in veg state?

treating ww as red and cw as blue that would be about 4:1 red vs blue

lax123 said:

thx,
"water less", I will try that.
Temperature in that cabinet is about 22-24°C @ "daytime" and 17-18 during the dark period.


You think that also about my complete set, when all leds arrived?:
15x ww, 8x cw, 20x 660, 20x 630, 6x blue

I thought what u said about colour mix is true considering flowering Phase, also when its just in veg state?

treating ww as red and cw as blue that would be about 4:1 red vs blue

Click to expand...

Not sure on your final Config...........white leds are an "unknown" addition and where added to gen 3 panels for "fill in the gaps", still unsure how effective they are compared to B/R/DR config that still grows remarkably well.

I came over from mh/hps and CMH(still love them).......what I learned from the old hid tech was completely irrelevant when I used this panel:

http://www.bonsaihero.com/ledgrow.html I ran it on full flower mode from seed and expected major stretching and what really happened was very tight internodes/compact growth.......with only FOUR blue leds , rest R/ 2 DR, his panels success IMO is the huge level of 630nm and small B/DR ratio. Remember he designed this for cannabis, we want high bud-to-leaf ratio NOT the other way around.

See it yourself;

https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/571674-hans-panel-56w-triband-led.html ZERO stretch in veg 20/4 schedule.

add as much 630nm red as you can!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit: I do wanna reiterate that once "white" leds hit 200lm+/per watt they will probably surpass most of these monochromatic led configs for flowering cannabis due to the high umol readings(brute power method) much like HPS/CMH with a lower wattage draw

Hi,
thx mate.

Really intresting: Hans Panel 56w triband led(65w total)>VS<Indagro 100 full spec induction(105w)+FIGHT!.
Too bad it turned out to be no real comparision.

Actually I looked into the Hans Panel before getting my LEDS. I think I read here somewhere that he is creating a new Version, using CW aswell? Someone got more Info?

You said:

Remember he designed this for cannabis, we want high bud-to-leaf ratio NOT the other way around.

Click to expand...

u got any more info why 660 is for "leaf" and "630" for bud? Also why 660 promotes rooting?


I started with the hans config, but then there is so much stuff going about using white for "green"and all that IR stuff....and hans doesnt use any of that and it still works pretty nice :-/
Then you look at the action spectrum which tells me that u should use more 660 then 630...I read that its mostly 630 everywhere, because these leds r more of a mass product and much cheaper and i think more efficient...

I guess my problem is that I read too much, lol, and with that comes worrieng and more leds.

The limited info on 660nm causing better root development is from Hans himself, he has researched led+cannabis for longer than anyone I know of

http://www.ledgrow.eu/test12.html Scroll to the bottom......... It's not a true comparison, but does give some interesting results

*630&660nm both promote budding*

660nm is absolutely necessary IMO, But an abundance of it "seems" to put the plants in overdrive(hitting the chlorophyll B peak) and needing higher levels of ferts/co2/cal-mag/etc....and if not met, result in deficiencies/necrosis. That's why 630nm is so recommended around here, because it's "gentler" and will effectively cover 70% of 660 without issues normally.

NONE of us truly know the perfect combination or spectral distribution for cannabis, that's why very HIGH lm/per watt all warm-white led panels will be the future of indoor growing. It will finally standardize this tech for indoor horticulture and stop all this== 12-16 "unique" wavelengths/quantum "green" spectra/ veg-flower modes/blah blah blah shit......And just give us "full" spectrum light without us questioning if their is better out there, plus it is gentler on the eyes

Yeah my grow wasn't a great comparison...lol...........Hans's new panels are a mystery to everyone, he specifically told me white leds aren't efficient enough yet and it will not be an all xt-e fixture either.............so my GUESS is better cooling(heatsinks/bigger fan) to increase the lm/per watt====your turn now

Thx for the link, very interesting, i guess i missed that part.

660nm[...]to put the plants in overdrive

Click to expand...

LoL, to me that sounds totally exciting.

So that fits to what happens to my tomatoes. Many roots and dark green as in more chloro -it looks better in reality as in my crappy cams picture. So it might be superhealthy -funny.

NONE of us truly know the perfect combination or spectral distribution for cannabis, that's why very HIGH lm/per watt all warm-white led panels will be the future of indoor growing

Click to expand...

Im more optimistic about wavelength bands. In white light there will be always a lot of wattage beeing wasted for parts of the spectrum that plants dont need/dont need as much as other parts. Energy is not getting any cheaper, especially keeping large scale indoor horticulture in mind.
Also imagine the potential of some sort of unnaturally initiated overdrive at the right time.

As its so intriguing, do you have more links or info about that overdrive/ people using 660nm in abundance with pictures?

edit: ah I found this: https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/590648-diy-led-220w-cree-xte.html

I found this topic:
https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/658111-what-kind-light-mj-likes-2.html
stardustsailor putting great effort into all that theoretical and science stuff.

I thought about copieng this. What do you think about it?

Clones / Seedlings

Blue Range 400-499nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 410 nm , ~430 nm & ~453 nm : 20-25%
Green Range 500-550 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 550 nm : 20-25 %
Yellow-Amber Range 551-599 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 599 nm : 5-10%
Red Range 600-639 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 625 nm : 15-20%
Deep Red Range 640-670 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~642 nm & 662 nm : 5-10 %
Far Red Range 671-750 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~680 nm ,700 nm & ~730 nmm : 5-10 %


Young Plants

Blue Range 400-499nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 410 nm , ~430 nm & ~453 nm : 10-15%
Green Range 500-550 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 550 nm : 10-20 %
Yellow-Amber Range 551-599 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 599 nm : 25-30%
Red Range 600-639 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 625 nm : 30-40%
Deep Red Range 640-670 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~642 nm & 662 nm : 10-15 %
Far Red Range 671-750 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~680 nm ,700 nm & ~730 nmm : 3-5%



Early Flowering

Blue Range 400-499nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 410 nm , ~430 nm & ~453 nm : 8-10 %
Green Range 500-550 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 550 nm : 10-20 %
Yellow-Amber Range 551-599 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 599 nm : 10-20%
Red Range 600-639 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 625 nm : 25-30 %
Deep Red Range 640-670 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~642 nm & 662 nm : 25-35 %
Far Red Range 671-750 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~680 nm ,700 nm & ~730 nmm : 3-5%


Middle Flowering

Blue Range 400-499nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 410 nm , ~430 nm & ~453 nm : 8-10 %
Green Range 500-550 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 550 nm : 1-15 %
Yellow-Amber Range 551-599 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 599 nm : 5-10%
Red Range 600-639 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 625 nm : 25-30 %
Deep Red Range 640-670 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~642 nm & 662 nm : 30-55 %
Far Red Range 671-750 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~680 nm ,700 nm & ~730 nmm : 3-5%


Late Flowering

Blue Range 400-499nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 410 nm , ~430 nm & ~453 nm : 1-8 %
Green Range 500-550 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 550 nm : 1-10 %
Yellow-Amber Range 551-599 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 599 nm : 1-10%
Red Range 600-639 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 625 nm : 25-40 %
Deep Red Range 640-670 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~642 nm & 662 nm : 35-70 %
Far Red Range 671-750 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~680 nm ,700 nm & ~730 nmm : 3-5%
​

I have 3 constant current sources for all of my leds.
So i plan to spread my leds in a usefull way accross them, in a way that i can switch another source on for the next plant stage.
I try to get the stages: Clones / Seedlings, Early Flowering , Late Flowering

I made some calculations, also considering led engin spectrum tool and came up with this:

Clones / Seedlings -1x CCS
2x red
2x dr
10x ww
3x cw
2x b

Early Flowering -2x CCS
14x red
7x dr
14x ww
4x cw
2x b

Late Flowering -all 3 CCS
6x red
14x dr
15x ww
6x cw
2x b


What do you think about it, better then my first spectrum?


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lax123 said:

Thx for the link, very interesting, i guess i missed that part.



LoL, to me that sounds totally exciting.

So that fits to what happens to my tomatoes. Many roots and dark green as in more chloro -it looks better in reality as in my crappy cams picture. So it might be superhealthy -funny.


Im more optimistic about wavelength bands. In white light there will be always a lot of wattage beeing wasted for parts of the spectrum that plants dont need/dont need as much as other parts. Energy is not getting any cheaper, especially keeping large scale indoor horticulture in mind.
Also imagine the potential of some sort of unnaturally initiated overdrive at the right time.

As its so intriguing, do you have more links or info about that overdrive/ people using 660nm in abundance with pictures?

edit: ah I found this: https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/590648-diy-led-220w-cree-xte.html

Click to expand...

Ah.....I see your bringing up the whole "wasted" light theory (500-600nm), well unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case when we figure in HPS and it's ability to flower exceptionally well. I was a big proponent on the whole hit the par peaks/mountains and don't waste any wattage on the valleys!! lol, but now I think that we do have to copy what works and stop trying to find this perfect light "recipe"......Biggest buds are grown with 1000w HID(no questioning this)with its 135-150lm/per watt(hps) pushing high UMOL readings. Now that white led's are hitting 120lm/per watt and will top 200lm-pw by the end of the year, it's time to get on the hype train and HID days are coming to an end for REAL this time.

I was here when the whole 90w ufo will beat a 400w hid shit was going on, didn't see any grower back up any of these shitty claims. Two guys where having successful runs with leds back then=== Endive and Puffenuff both rocked grows with the early china-panel stuff, scary to think what they could do with HID!! :O

Now we have some documented cases of guys going over 2gpw with better tech (Hans + Ganja2 both did) and aren't cheats like irishboy and Mr x (very questionable, was never repeated by anyone).

What I'm trying to say IS THAT LUMENS DO MATTER because their directly related to energy/photons being pushed onto the plant canopy (forget LPS, that's unuseable), we don't need to reinvent the wheel, just copy and make it more efficient! play on leds strong suit, it's constant evolution/efficacy improvements will crush HID's high umol/lm-per watt next year by beating it at it's own spectral distribution=== "WHITE"...........This is all IMO though

Yes Supra knows his stuff on led tech and efficacy calculations.........good grower too

lax123 said:

I found this topic:
https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/658111-what-kind-light-mj-likes-2.html
stardustsailor putting great effort into all that theoretical and science stuff.

I thought about copieng this. What do you think about it?

Clones / Seedlings

Blue Range 400-499nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 410 nm , ~430 nm & ~453 nm : 20-25%
Green Range 500-550 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 550 nm : 20-25 %
Yellow-Amber Range 551-599 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 599 nm : 5-10%
Red Range 600-639 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 625 nm : 15-20%
Deep Red Range 640-670 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~642 nm & 662 nm : 5-10 %
Far Red Range 671-750 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~680 nm ,700 nm & ~730 nmm : 5-10 %


Young Plants

Blue Range 400-499nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 410 nm , ~430 nm & ~453 nm : 10-15%
Green Range 500-550 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 550 nm : 10-20 %
Yellow-Amber Range 551-599 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 599 nm : 25-30%
Red Range 600-639 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 625 nm : 30-40%
Deep Red Range 640-670 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~642 nm & 662 nm : 10-15 %
Far Red Range 671-750 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~680 nm ,700 nm & ~730 nmm : 3-5%



Early Flowering

Blue Range 400-499nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 410 nm , ~430 nm & ~453 nm : 8-10 %
Green Range 500-550 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 550 nm : 10-20 %
Yellow-Amber Range 551-599 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 599 nm : 10-20%
Red Range 600-639 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 625 nm : 25-30 %
Deep Red Range 640-670 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~642 nm & 662 nm : 25-35 %
Far Red Range 671-750 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~680 nm ,700 nm & ~730 nmm : 3-5%


Middle Flowering

Blue Range 400-499nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 410 nm , ~430 nm & ~453 nm : 8-10 %
Green Range 500-550 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 550 nm : 1-15 %
Yellow-Amber Range 551-599 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 599 nm : 5-10%
Red Range 600-639 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 625 nm : 25-30 %
Deep Red Range 640-670 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~642 nm & 662 nm : 30-55 %
Far Red Range 671-750 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~680 nm ,700 nm & ~730 nmm : 3-5%


Late Flowering

Blue Range 400-499nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 410 nm , ~430 nm & ~453 nm : 1-8 %
Green Range 500-550 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 550 nm : 1-10 %
Yellow-Amber Range 551-599 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 599 nm : 1-10%
Red Range 600-639 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~ 625 nm : 25-40 %
Deep Red Range 640-670 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~642 nm & 662 nm : 35-70 %
Far Red Range 671-750 nm .Peaks pref. @ ~680 nm ,700 nm & ~730 nmm : 3-5%
​

I have 3 constant current sources for all of my leds.
So i plan to spread my leds in a usefull way accross them, in a way that i can switch another source on for the next plant stage.
I try to get the stages: Clones / Seedlings, Early Flowering , Late Flowering

I made some calculations, also considering led engin spectrum tool and came up with this:

Clones / Seedlings -1x CCS
2x red
2x dr
10x ww
3x cw
2x b

Early Flowering -2x CCS
14x red
7x dr
14x ww
4x cw
2x b

Late Flowering -all 3 CCS
6x red
14x dr
15x ww
6x cw
2x b


What do you think about it, better then my first spectrum?


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Click to expand...

Yes SDS is a brilliant man, and his theories are well thought out and backed by science..............BUT growers want RESULTS, so the best thing is for you to run with your setup and show us how well it works on CANNABIS here!!!! will help the community...

Personally I like your led config^^^ should do well

good luck

thx man,

ill do a documentation of the progress. But i guess my results will be worth not much as this will be my first grow ever...
Im getting clones from a friend who is doing led and he told me not to worry about the leds so much because ill have 1000 other problems at hand

Maybe I can ask u some questions?

My total wattage will be about 120W, I have a space of about 55x55cm, led frame is about 25x25cm. Light height can be adjusted. 12V pump for watering. Im going to use quality soil with compost, -my friend uses hydro, but told me its a bit to complicated for a noob like me, with no pH measurement. Temperature with the LEDs turned on is about 24°C, in darkness its about 18°C. But right now im testing with 38 of 68 leds and without using the active carbon exhaust.

How many plants would you use there? Im thinking about 4.
Any other comment is welcome.

I have good skills in electronics and using arduino microcontroller, but i dont see a big advantage of using it there yet.

The indoor tomato was 2cm smaller then the one outdoor, now its like 1cm higher and the weather is sunny. And its further in blossom development and its just been 7 days. So im optimistic

Tough call, many factors including pot size/veg time/training (highly recommended indoors on non-autos)/etc......what your yield expectations (grams) for the harvest?

Pot size- diameter is about 13,5cm each.

Is training something like using a fan to move the plant so the stem strengthens and rolling the stems and other parts with ur fingers?
My friend told me to use a net to keep them all the same size and to broaden the top. Is that a good idea?.
Im ready to do what im told to do

-Veg time, on that matter i have absolutely no clue yet what to do.

-Expectations, I hope something survives until harvest lol.

As I will be using clones, are all those "rooting boosters" and "enzymes" really necessary for a good result?

Look at the roots and stuff. Maybe its clever to use that root promoting effect in the early stages or with clones with lots of 660nm at start.

Also i think the blossom on the indoor tomato is interesting, while on the right side its small and closed.

picture
12/12, 8x cw,6x b,5x ww,21x 660nm @650mA
cress, started as seed, 6 days old, leftside indoor

lax123 said:

Look at the roots and stuff. Maybe its clever to use that root promoting effect in the early stages or with clones with lots of 660nm at start.

Also i think the blossom on the indoor tomato is interesting, while on the right side its small and closed.

Click to expand...

Hmm that is interesting...........I see no reason NOT to run 660nm all the way from veg== flower. how many days old are they????

I know cocca was using a panel that had HUGE levels of 660nm but his grow got cancelled unfortunately, maybe he would still answer a PM
http://www.homegrownlights.com/300W.html we all said it was too much 660, but he had no issues with it I think????

The cress r about 6 days old. The "kitchen cress" r putting their neck out" to get some sun, while the led cress r smaller but not at the cost of any leaf size. Also notice again the darker colour, which might be a lot of more chloro.

And the tomates idk, but they looked pretty much the same and one changed to this dr octopus in 7 days.
I hope the dead leaves r just shade leaves that the plant now doesnt need anymore.


Also i think it is interesting with the yellow blossom there, as I have soo much blue in there right now.



I didnt find that cocca with user search :-/

lax123 said:

The cress r about 6 days old. The "kitchen cress" r putting their neck out" to get some sun, while the led cress r smaller but not at the cost of any leaf size. Also notice again the darker colour, which might be a lot of more chloro.

And the tomates idk, but they looked pretty much the same and one changed to this dr octopus in 7 days.
I hope the dead leaves r just shade leaves that the plant now doesnt need anymore.


Also i think it is interesting with the yellow blossom there, as I have soo much blue in there right now.



I didnt find that cocca with user search :-/

Click to expand...

Sorry should have been more specific:

https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/628848-procyon-300-beta-testing.html good grower, shame about his grow==== but that's life