Conservatives and Ideas

CrackerJax

New Member
ok so your solution is to increase the deficit and do what the insurance companies don't really want, but will accepts because, well, geez, they have to give something up

well done
Like I said...50 million is not accurate. Yes, it is okay to go to bed at night without insurance. The majority of ppl in this country are quite healthy and could go through the majority of their life with simply a catastrophic policy.

As for my plan increasing the deficit...you have it backwards. What is happening right now is increasing the deficit....by a WHOPPING amount as well. My plan will REDUCE the deficit. Reducing the govt. spending will not increase the deficit. It is the government spending in and of itself which IS the deficit. Taxpayers didn't create it...The private sector didn't create it. the Govt. did.

If you want deficit spending than you need only pull up a chair and watch the show.....

I'm for something much much better.
 

jeffchr

Well-Known Member
Nice start but all i'm reading is jargon... first of the number is 40 million Leagal Americans do not have HC. This was done and reported by the US census bruo and is correct. I use there stats all the time and they never falter.
Census from 2007 = 15.3% of Americans had no insurance, or 45.7 million. That was 2 years ago and before the recession really started to impact employment. Current census data is not available, but estimated for 2009 approach 50 mil.
 

macinnis

Active Member
Nice start but all i'm reading is jargon... first of the number is 40 million Leagal Americans do not have HC. This was done and reported by the US census bruo and is correct. I use there stats all the time and they never falter.

On another note, and i consider myself an extream conservative if not a federalist, and to continue and push for tax cuts is BAD STRATAGY!!!! yea sure corporate earning taxes should be competative with the global rate YES YES YES. However, we need not think that we will decrease spending in america to the point of paying off the national debt and buying back the t bonds from china. THIS WONT HAPPEN we need higher state taxes and lower federal taxes. THis way there can be competition w/in american states NOT JUST OVER SEAS, we should then kick up a proportional chuck to the fed to pay our creditors. THAT WAY STATES CAN KEEP THE FEDERAL GOVENMENT IN CHECK .

Also AUDIT THE FEDERL RESERVE, and always, VOTE FOR DR. RON PAUL.
Interesting, I would like to see some research on this. But what about states like Texas, and Alaska that if they had their way would probably abolish their taxes if they could and go bankrupt like Cali
 

undertheice

Well-Known Member
it's called common decency and is a precursor to a healthy and persevering society
no, it's called theft in the name of wealth redistribution and under color of authority. charity, something americans excel at, would be considered as common decency. the enforced charity foisted on us by the liberal establishment and allowed by the ignorant greedy masses is nothing more than another stepping stone toward totalitarianism, leaving the political elite with control of an ever widening swath of the nation's economy and an ever increasing number of citizens dependent on the goodwill of the state.




i'm slow, but i'm still here (sometimes).
 

CrackerJax

New Member
It's a number with no context. Do a bit more reading about the subject and find out what happens to those numbers. The vast majority of Americans who do have insurance are quite happy with the quality and accessibility. It's the cost which is the problem. There are ways to reduce those costs......but rest assured the costs will NEVER be brought down by the Govt. It's a fools errand to believe otherwise. Just look at the track record of the Govt. with ANY large program ..... all in the red by vast amounts. All were promised to not go into the red at the time of their initiation.

What makes you think the govt can bring down the cost of ANYthing.... seriously. Where is the stellar record of fiscal responsibility and accountability?

Show it to me........please.
 

mrsag3

Member
I CHOOSE not to have it.
Yeah homeboy that's all well and good but what happens if you get in a car accident, or shot randomly, or hit by falling grow lights? W/o insurance, who eats the price of your care?

My dad recently had to go to the hospital, he's an old fart, had chest pains and pain down his arm. Wasn't a heart attack, but they kept him overnight for observation. Few weeks later he got a $10,000 hospital bill. Now he has subsidized insurance as part of his retirement package, but what happens to the average american who either a) cant afford insurance or b) is denied for random insurance company purposes? I have a good job and am stable financially but I'd have to declare bankruptcy out the gate.

I'm all for small government, low taxes, and very few social programs, but got to say that ensuring health coverage for every American is worth a spike in my payroll taxes. You take the for profit motive out of health care by putting it in to a single payer system, which I think will result in streamlined and improved health care overall.

What makes you think the govt can bring down the cost of ANYthing.... seriously. Where is the stellar record of fiscal responsibility and accountability?

Show it to me........please.
Haha, fiscal responsibility and accountability? Sure you're from the states? :) Still, Medicare is a pretty good example. Conversely you have the VA of course. To me, I'm willing to pay a little bit extra to make sure everyone who needs it has access to health care. Love your brother and all that. I'm not concerned with making it cheaper necessarily, though there are arguments that the public option would do just that. I'd say let's just pay for it by reducing budgets for other crap failed social new society programs.

My 2 cents. Vote Ron Paul.
 

macinnis

Active Member
no, it's called theft in the name of wealth redistribution and under color of authority. charity, something americans excel at, would be considered as common decency. the enforced charity foisted on us by the liberal establishment and allowed by the ignorant greedy masses is nothing more than another stepping stone toward totalitarianism, leaving the political elite with control of an ever widening swath of the nation's economy and an ever increasing number of citizens dependent on the goodwill of the state.




i'm slow, but i'm still here (sometimes).
Maybe a little wealth redistribution might be appropriate. The average CEO makes 450% what their employees do, what do they do that makes them that valuable.
William McGuire, of UnitedHealth Group, the nation's leading insurer, was the third-highest-paid CEO on the Forbes list. His pay of $124.8 million could cover the average health-insurance premiums of nearly 34,000 people. This is a major reason why premiums have gotten so ridiculously out of hand. Most people with employer provided Health Insurance never see how much the full bill is.
 

macinnis

Active Member
Yeah homeboy that's all well and good but what happens if you get in a car accident, or shot randomly, or hit by falling grow lights? W/o insurance, who eats the price of your care?

My dad recently had to go to the hospital, he's an old fart, had chest pains and pain down his arm. Wasn't a heart attack, but they kept him overnight for observation. Few weeks later he got a $10,000 hospital bill. Now he has subsidized insurance as part of his retirement package, but what happens to the average american who either a) cant afford insurance or b) is denied for random insurance company purposes? I have a good job and am stable financially but I'd have to declare bankruptcy out the gate.

I'm all for small government, low taxes, and very few social programs, but got to say that ensuring health coverage for every American is worth a spike in my payroll taxes. You take the for profit motive out of health care by putting it in to a single payer system, which I think will result in streamlined and improved health care overall.

My 2 cents. Vote Ron Paul.
Single payer would be the best, but since that won't happen we need the Public Option so there is competition to keep prices down. It works fine for USPS, FED EX, and UPS; and also public and private universities. Since when do Free Marketers not believe in competition?
 

mrsag3

Member
Since when do Free Marketers not believe in competition?
The party line would be "when it's competition from the government" which of course earns you the commie label. :)

Generally, I agree. The government shouldn't be a corporation, nor should it compete with the opportunity for its citizens to create and develop wealth. Health care though shouldn't have anything to do with profit IMO.
 

iivan740

Well-Known Member
I've got a few ideas macinnis but first let me say that there is no "you" to the mess that this country finds itself in. There is a "we" all of us, everyone, and I mean both sides of the isle and everywhere in between. WE have let ourselves be fooled into believing in "party lines" when there is no such thing anymore. If you really take a step back and look at the two parties you will see that there is really only one party, and none of us are invited. All of us can see it everyday; Dems says no and the reps says yes, and then the next term the reps say no and the dems say yes. They are all looking at us saying they hate each other on the news then high fiving each other behind closed doors.
SRY I digress.
A few ideas to start to fixing our nation:
1. Bring back industry to our nation. destroy nafta
2. make fractional banking illegal - seriously this one has been killing us slowly for decades.
3. stop with all of the social aid programs, both here and abroad. I get that most of us can use a little help from time to time, but IMHO FUCK everyone else. I do not give a rats ass about Rwanda, Darfur, or any other asshole with their hand in americas back pocket. We already forgive huge war loans and rebuild everything.
4. If and when we go to war GET IT DONE and don't apologize. Case in point; the war in the middle east. We all wanted the terrorist to pay after 911, but damn. Why the fuck didn't we get it done, drop a couple of huge ass bombs, clean the rest up with sorties, and go home. We could have even dropped a bunch of tee shirts that said "COME FUCK WITH AMERICA AGAIN AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS". But NO we have to be all polite about it and draw it out for way to long.
5. Force goverment to cut spending and stick to a budget.
6. No more bail outs. First Bush says AIG is to big to fail, and now the goverment owns part of GM thanks to Oboma. Come on really. Noone is to big to fail. Let the weak and mismanaged fail and a company will rise up to take its place.

Just my two cents.
 

iivan740

Well-Known Member
Single payer would be the best, but since that won't happen we need the Public Option so there is competition to keep prices down. It works fine for USPS, FED EX, and UPS; and also public and private universities. Since when do Free Marketers not believe in competition?
Two of those companies made a profit last year and one operates at a loss year after year after year.

Public option means that some how some way the public is going to end up paying for someone elses healthcare.
I may be a bastard for saying this but I have a problem with paying local school taxes. First off I do not have any children in public school, and secondly it is not my responsibility to educate other peoples children. Yes I know that it is selfish but it's my money that I work hard for and those are not my children that my hard earned money is benefiting......
I have the same feeling about public health care. Let me take care of mine and I will let you take care of yours period.... I don't care about the so called death panels or end of life planing, I don't care if it would be better of everyone, and I don't give a damn if it hurts anyones feelings. My Fucking money should be spent taking care of myself. We already have idiots going to the emergancy room for headaches and hang overs. I like the idea of the "for profit hospital". If you can't pay don't even bother.....
 

macinnis

Active Member
I've got a few ideas macinnis but first let me say that there is no "you" to the mess that this country finds itself in. There is a "we" all of us, everyone, and I mean both sides of the isle and everywhere in between. WE have let ourselves be fooled into believing in "party lines" when there is no such thing anymore. If you really take a step back and look at the two parties you will see that there is really only one party, and none of us are invited. All of us can see it everyday; Dems says no and the reps says yes, and then the next term the reps say no and the dems say yes. They are all looking at us saying they hate each other on the news then high fiving each other behind closed doors.
SRY I digress.
A few ideas to start to fixing our nation:
1. Bring back industry to our nation. destroy nafta
2. make fractional banking illegal - seriously this one has been killing us slowly for decades.
3. stop with all of the social aid programs, both here and abroad. I get that most of us can use a little help from time to time, but IMHO FUCK everyone else. I do not give a rats ass about Rwanda, Darfur, or any other asshole with their hand in americas back pocket. We already forgive huge war loans and rebuild everything.
4. If and when we go to war GET IT DONE and don't apologize. Case in point; the war in the middle east. We all wanted the terrorist to pay after 911, but damn. Why the fuck didn't we get it done, drop a couple of huge ass bombs, clean the rest up with sorties, and go home. We could have even dropped a bunch of tee shirts that said "COME FUCK WITH AMERICA AGAIN AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS". But NO we have to be all polite about it and draw it out for way to long.
5. Force goverment to cut spending and stick to a budget.
6. No more bail outs. First Bush says AIG is to big to fail, and now the goverment owns part of GM thanks to Oboma. Come on really. Noone is to big to fail. Let the weak and mismanaged fail and a company will rise up to take its place.

Just my two cents.
I agree on 1 and 2. 3 = I don't think we should do as much foreign aid until our economy is back under check, but we can't scrap our social security net. 4 = I think we shouldn't have ever gone to Iraq, and just concentreated on killing Bin Laden. 5 = I totally agree once we get out of the recession and fix healthcare. 6 = I agree
 

undertheice

Well-Known Member
Health care though shouldn't have anything to do with profit IMO.
i heard this same line from my son not too long ago and my reply now is the same as it was then. when the government trains doctors and nurses, when it figures some way to make money besides stealing it from its citizens, then we can have free or at cost medical care. when a community is willing to get together and build a hospital with their own sweat and earnings and agree to invest as a whole into the development of new drugs and treatments, then they can expect to use those facilities and products without paying for the natural profit expected by anyone who makes an investment. men and women invest their time and money into becoming medical professionals and developing the medicines we use every day to save countless lives, they deserve a return on that effort. corporations and individuals invest billions in the gamble that is insurance, they too deserve a return on that risk.

the idea that there should be no profit in health care is the product of a society that has had things too good for too long and doesn't appreciate the hardships endured for this country to reach its present status. without the incentive of those profits, how many of the great medical advances that this nation's citizens have been responsible for do you think would have ever come to pass? the possibility of those profits are what creates incentive and the investment of those profits have made it possible for millions to live when they should have died. if there is no reward for risk and effort there is only stagnation and the slavery of the comfortable poverty that is all that the liberal establishment has to offer.
 

iivan740

Well-Known Member
I definitly agree with that macinnis. Bin Laden and his organization should have been the initial focus not Iraq.
 

mrsag3

Member
men and women invest their time and money...they deserve a return on that effort.
Cheers, I stated it poorly. You dont eliminate all profit friend, how many doctors are there out there that take medicare/medicaid patients as the majority of their clients and dont make an awesome living? How many of them do you suppose are only doing moderately well? How many doctors do you see fleeing from France's commie singlepayer system in rain barrels, without a penny to their name? Not many.

Am I saying doctors should live like you and I comrade? :lol: Not at all. They deserve to live well -- they save lives and increase the standard of living for everyone. Who can afford it.

Corporations and individuals invest billions in the gamble that is insurance.
Lost me on that one though. Since when has insurance, in any form whatsoever, been a gamble? Has any health/homeowner/car insurance company lost money in the last quarter century that hasn't been related to poor investment strategies?

Regardless, I think most will agree that in its current format our health care system has serious issues. How to fix things is abolutely open to debate, but it's hard to deny there's room for improvement.





  • From 2000-2004, profits for the top 17 U.S. health insurance companies rose 114%
  • Simultaneously, the number of uninsured individuals grew by six million people, and health insurance premiums rose 60%
  • A 2003 New England Journal of Medicine study estimated that in 1999, as much as $294.3 billion was used for administrative costs, representing 31.0% of health care expenditures in America.
[/healthcare nonsense threadjack] :bigjoint:


"Health Insurers Getting Bigger Cut of Medical Dollars." Investors’ Business Daily, Oct. 15, 2004.

Kaiser Family Foundation. "The Uninsured and Their Access to Health Care." Fact Sheet #1402-07, November 2005.

Aaron, H. "The Costs of Health Care Administration in the United States and Canada—Questionable Answers to a Questionable Question," New England Journal of Medicine 349(9):801–803, 2003.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
50 million uninsured Americans?
Posted: August 18, 2009, 8:16 PM by NP Editor Michael Tanner, U.S. health insurance

Most people without health insurance are uninsured for a relatively short time
By Michael D. Tanner
No single topic drives the health care reform debate like the number of uninsured Americans, variously numbered in speeches and ads at 45 million, 46 million, 47 million, or even 50 million. Unfortunately, most of what we think we know about the uninsured is wrong.

For the record, according to the latest figures from the Census Bureau, 45.6 million Americans currently lack health insurance. This is actually down slightly from the 47 million that were uninsured in 2006. However, those numbers don’t tell the whole story.

For example, roughly one-quarter of those counted as uninsured — 12 million people — are eligible for Medicaid and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program (S-CHIP), but haven’t enrolled. This includes 64% of all uninsured children and 29% of parents with children. Since these people would be enrolled in those programs automatically if they went to the hospital for care, calling them uninsured is really a smokescreen.

Another 10 million uninsured “Americans” are, at least technically, not Americans. Approximately 5.6 million are illegal immigrants and another 4.4 million are legal immigrants but not citizens.

The reality is that most people without health insurance are uninsured for a relatively short period of time.

Nor are the uninsured necessarily poor. A new study by June O’Neill, former director of the Congressional Budget Office, found that 43% of the uninsured have incomes higher than 250% of the poverty level ($55,125 for a family of four). And slightly more than a third have incomes in excess of $66,000. A second study, by Mark Pauly of the University of Pennsylvania and Kate Bundorf of Stanford, concluded that nearly three-quarters of the uninsured could afford coverage but chose not to purchase it.

And most of the uninsured are young and in good health. According to the Congressional Budget Office, roughly 60% are under the age of 35, and fully 86% report that they are in good or excellent health.

Finally, when we hear about 45 million Americans without health insurance, it conjures up the notion that all of those born without health insurance, die without health insurance, and are never insured in between. The reality is that most people without health insurance are uninsured for a relatively short period of time.

Only about 30% of the uninsured remain so for more than a year, approximately 16% for two years and less than 2.5% for three years or longer. About half are uninsured for six months or less. Notably, because health insurance is too often tied to employment, the working poor who cycle in and out of the job market also cycle in and out of health insurance.

None of this is to suggest that many of those without health insurance do not face severe hardship, or that we shouldn’t try to expand health insurance coverage. But it does mean that we might be able to deal with this problem in a much more targeted way, rather than having a huge and expensive new government program.

For example, young, healthy and well-off people might be more inclined to buy insurance if it cost less. That means ending regulations, like community rating, that increase the cost of insurance for younger and healthier workers; eliminating costly mandated benefits; and creating more competition by allowing people to purchase insurance across state lines.

And if people are losing their insurance when they lose their jobs, we should move away from a system dominated by employer-provided health insurance. That means changing the tax treatment of health insurance.

The current system excludes the value of employer-provided insurance from a worker’s taxable income. However, workers purchasing health insurance on their own must do so with after-tax dollars. This provides a significant tilt toward employer-provided insurance. Workers should receive a standard deduction, a tax credit, or, better still, large Health Savings Accounts (HSAs) for the purchase of health insurance, regardless of whether they receive it through their job or purchase it on their own.

We can then look at those people who may need some kind of subsidy to better afford insurance.

Doctors know that if you don’t get the diagnosis correct, you are not going to prescribe the right treatment. The same is true with health care reform. In trying to expand coverage to those who need it, let’s make certain we understand the facts.

Michael Tanner is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute and co-author of Healthy Competition: What’s Holding Back Health Care and How to Free It.
 
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