Chemistry Question On a Stimulating THC

victozap · Feb 17, 2010

A little background here, I am currently a high school student, and in my chemistry class we were assigned a paper in which we had to create a new chemical with theraputic uses.

Well being an advid cannabis consumer, I'm obviously going to try to do something with THC, so here is my question:

We are all familiar with tetrahydrocannabinol and it turns out that the molecule itself has an independant HO group on it. We are also familiar with the sedating effects that come with the high, so my goal is to offset those with stimulating effects for those who would like a more alerting high.

So I did some research on a legal derrative of cocaine called Lometopane with similar stimulating effects. It's actually used as an ADD/ADHD medicine. Now this molecule has a single H group.

Here's where I need chemistry help. Could I combine these two molecules using a simple dehydration synthesis combining the HO in the THC to the single H in lometopane to create an H2O bond?

If so would this molecule have the same pyschoactive properties as the two separate molecules or would it be different?

Any help is greatly appreciated

poplars · Feb 17, 2010

I think you're taking the totally wrong path of thinking on this one.

cannabis produces it's effects with more than ONE chemical, it uses many chemicals, creating a synergistic reaction.

you cannot expect to attain significant effects by modifying one molecule. in fact, I recommend thc be kept the same, and other cannabinoids be added to catalyze with the effects.

that's essentially how cannabis strains work, bred until one seems to pop out a different cannabinoid to react with THC and others . . . . . hence the uniqueness of highs from other strains.

either way, if you want more powerful weed, get into breeding, nature will do the rest of the work.

matthew · Feb 17, 2010

If you are in the US, even a med state, expect to end the day in handcuffs.

poplars · Feb 17, 2010

matthew said:
If you are in the US, even a med state, expect to end the day in handcuffs.

eh?

that's a pretty ignorant response. just because someone's trying to make a more powerful cannabinoid doesn't mean it's illegal in a medical state. there's absolutely NO law that says you can't make cannabis more powerful.

all I'm saying is that the way this kid wants to go about it is completely wrong, very pharmaceutical-company-style.

victozap · Feb 17, 2010

No, no, no haha I'm not actually trying to actually synthesize this, this is for a SCHOOL paper, so it's all hypothetical and completely legal.

@ poplars - Yeah I know about CBD and the other cannabinoids, but I'm strictly talking about THC. I'm supposed to be taking this from a sort of pharmesutical stand point because it's for medical benefits.

What my bottom line is, if I combined these two molecules into one, would they have the same psychoactive effect?

poplars · Feb 17, 2010

victozap said:
No, no, no haha I'm not actually trying to actually synthesize this, this is for a SCHOOL paper, so it's all hypothetical and completely legal.

@ poplars - Yeah I know about CBD and the other cannabinoids, but I'm strictly talking about THC. I'm supposed to be taking this from a sort of pharmesutical stand point because it's for medical benefits.

What my bottom line is, if I combined these two molecules into one, would they have the same psychoactive effect?

no, because of the synergistic reaction. this is why cannabis isn't used widespread in pharmaceutical medicine, they want ONE molecule cures. not 4-5 or even 6-10.

so in essence, hypothetically you'd be in for way more work than simply breeding the plant and letting nature do it's work.

matthew · Feb 17, 2010

poplars said:
eh?

that's a pretty ignorant response. just because someone's trying to make a more powerful cannabinoid doesn't mean it's illegal in a medical state. there's absolutely NO law that says you can't make cannabis more powerful.

all I'm saying is that the way this kid wants to go about it is completely wrong, very pharmaceutical-company-style.

Did the fact that he is in high school not stick out to you? Something like this probably wouldn't fly in a high school in Amsterdam, let alone in a country where THC is still federally illegal.

poplars · Feb 17, 2010

matthew said:
Did the fact that he is in high school not stick out to you? Something like this probably wouldn't fly in a high school in Amsterdam, let alone in a country where THC is still federally illegal.

yeah I noticed it, I was just more interested in the actual subject being discussed than the OP's age.

and he already stated this is just a hypothetical paper, not actual experimentation.

matthew · Feb 17, 2010

victozap said:
No, no, no haha I'm not actually trying to actually synthesize this, this is for a SCHOOL paper, so it's all hypothetical and completely legal.

@ poplars - Yeah I know about CBD and the other cannabinoids, but I'm strictly talking about THC. I'm supposed to be taking this from a sort of pharmesutical stand point because it's for medical benefits.

What my bottom line is, if I combined these two molecules into one, would they have the same psychoactive effect?

THC is a Schedule 1 drug, that means the DEA is the ONLY one who can authorize the academic use of THC. This applies to research universities and there is only one in all of the United States legally allowed to experiment with THC. You said you are in HIGH SCHOOL which means there is no possible way on the planet that you could legally study cannabis. The federal government has blanket jurisdiction for ALL marijuana offenses and a US attorney could indict you in federal court for a dime bag.

Even if you lived in the most liberal med state in the country you can not possibly believe that there will not be repercussions for turning in something on pot. Assuming this is just a paper you will probably just get in a lot of trouble, if you were actually going to bring anything (synthetic THC is also schedule 1) you would wind, as I said earlier, in handcuffs.

matthew · Feb 17, 2010

victozap said:
No, no, no haha I'm not actually trying to actually synthesize this, this is for a SCHOOL paper, so it's all hypothetical and completely legal.

@ poplars - Yeah I know about CBD and the other cannabinoids, but I'm strictly talking about THC. I'm supposed to be taking this from a sort of pharmesutical stand point because it's for medical benefits.

What my bottom line is, if I combined these two molecules into one, would they have the same psychoactive effect?

Also 100% THC would not be a good thing. The difference between all the different strains are their ratios of various canabinoids.

poplars · Feb 17, 2010

matthew said:
Also 100% THC would not be a good thing. The difference between all the different strains are their ratios of various canabinoids.

yep. as I said before, breed the strains and let nature do what it does best.

victozap · Feb 17, 2010

Guys I'm a senior in high school, I have a cool ass young science teacher who appreciates shit like this, I'm good on the legal part haha.

And I know THC is powerful by it's own, you don't neccesariy need the other cannabinoids, that's what Marinol is, it's litterally THC in pill form and given to cancer patients.

Anyways back to the main question, I still really haven't got the answer. Would these two molecules combined have the same pyschoactive properties as they would separate?

Mr.KushMan · Feb 17, 2010

No, the pieces of the molecules you are describing to take apart aren't where the chemical properties lie. Maybe a couple of questions you need to ask. How do they bind to the specific receptors? Are the chemicals of a similar class that they could be 'mixed', as it were? You would probably be better off looking into the PAH's and terpenes that contribute to the high in marijuana.

Peace

victozap · Feb 17, 2010

Oh ok I see what you're saying. I definetly look that up, thanks!

tnrtinr · Feb 17, 2010

victozap said:
Guys I'm a senior in high school, I have a cool ass young science teacher who appreciates shit like this, I'm good on the legal part haha.

And I know THC is powerful by it's own, you don't neccesariy need the other cannabinoids, that's what Marinol is, it's litterally THC in pill form and given to cancer patients.

Anyways back to the main question, I still really haven't got the answer. Would these two molecules combined have the same pyschoactive properties as they would separate?

Watch and learn:
[youtube]x9J2N6_bl0A[/youtube]

victozap · Feb 17, 2010

Dude I've seen that exact documentary on Nat Geo! I don't get what your trying to prove, I get that the cannbinoids add to the high, but THC is psychoactive by ITSELF! You don't NEED the other cbn's and that video just proved it!

Strains with a high thc to cbd ratio cause a more trippy high, which is why the lady had anxiety on the pure thc because she is not a regular pot smoker, she has no tolerance....

tnrtinr · Feb 17, 2010

victozap said:
Dude I've seen that exact documentary on Nat Geo! I don't get what your trying to prove, I get that the cannbinoids add to the high, but THC is psychoactive by ITSELF! You don't NEED the other cbn's and that video just proved it!

Strains with a high thc to cbd ratio cause a more trippy high, which is why the lady had anxiety on the pure thc because she is not a regular pot smoker, she has no tolerance....

And you want to mix that high anxiety with a cocaine derivative? High anxiety + high energy. Seems like a recipe for disaster.

It's your project - I would look else where.

Cannabis + Opium derivatives seem like a "better" route for "therapeutic uses" than weed + cocaine derivative to me. 2 of the oldest and most therapeutic drugs the world has ever seen.

Think about cancer - if you have ever seen someone with cancer go through chemo you would see the pain they are in. Opium derivatives to numb the pain while having the thc + cannabonoid profile to to maintain well-being (eating / positive attitude / living in the moment / laughing) and cancer fighting properties of various compounds in cannabis.

Put it in a pill so that anti marijuana people would be open to the medicine without the stigma of consuming marijuana.

Just my $.02

Iron, Lion, Zion · Feb 17, 2010

victozap said:
What my bottom line is, if I combined these two molecules into one, would they have the same psychoactive effect?

You can't really say "Because this chemical does this and this chemical does this, when they are combined they will do both."
You also wouldn't be able to say that this chemical will be stable. I can't remember what you said (combining them through hydrolysis or a condensation reaction), but in all likelihood, if this were capable it wouldn't be stable (it could very easily be reversed when a different environment is introduced), which would lead to the breaking of the bond that you mentioned.

Your question is more of an Orgo Chemistry question than a Gen Chem question (I dunno what class you are in specifically, but since you said HS, I'm going to assume Gen Chem). Finally, after looking at the molecule (not THC) and THC, it would be pretty difficult to combine the two. They are both very "bulky" and have multiple side groups that make it pretty difficult to add another "bulky" compound to it...

I'm not saying it's not possible, but after taking Orgo (which suuuuuuuucks) in school, I think it would be extremely difficult.

victozap · Feb 18, 2010

Oh ok thanks for the help guys. Yeah I agree with the opium based medicine as well.

And yeah I'm in Gen Chem, and thanks for that, I knew the molecules were big I just didn't know it was possible. I think I'm just gonna try and find something to trigger the release of anamide (sp?), it's pretty much just natural THC in the body that binds to the cannabinoid receptors

poplars · Feb 18, 2010

victozap said:
Oh ok thanks for the help guys. Yeah I agree with the opium based medicine as well.

And yeah I'm in Gen Chem, and thanks for that, I knew the molecules were big I just didn't know it was possible. I think I'm just gonna try and find something to trigger the release of anamide (sp?), it's pretty much just natural THC in the body that binds to the cannabinoid receptors

anandamide. and it doesn't work the same as THC, THC is the cannabinoid receptor agonist . . . . anandamide is the cannabinoid receptor antagonist.

there's some evidence to show that anandamide is released after you do a repetitive physical activity like running or hiking.

Chemistry Question On a Stimulating THC

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