Charlie Wilson's War

ZenMaster

Well-Known Member
Charlie Wilson's War (2007)

Interesting movie, it basically follows congressman Charlie Wilson (R-Tx) and his direct involvement in supplying arms and funds to Afganistan during the Russian invasion.

Its a good watch and I recommend it to all of you following politics, it even mentions me in the movie :D
 

VTXDave

Well-Known Member
Charlie Wilson's War (2007)

Interesting movie, it basically follows congressman Charlie Wilson (R-Tx) and his direct involvement in supplying arms and funds to Afganistan during the Russian invasion.

Its a good watch and I recommend it to all of you following politics, it even mentions me in the movie :D
I hear it didn't even once mention the Carter Administration's funding (and supply of weapons) via the CIA of the Mujahadin even before the invasion of the Soviets. Is that so?
 

VTXDave

Well-Known Member
Well I suppose I'll check it out someday. My fear is that it'll turn out to be historically inaccurate as many hollywood movies often are.
 

medicineman

New Member
Well I suppose I'll check it out someday. My fear is that it'll turn out to be historically inaccurate as many hollywood movies often are.
I saw it, pretty entertaining. Don't know how accurate it was. I guess if it mentioned Zenhole, he could be Osama Bin Laden,Eh?~LOL~. Maybe Dickhead Cheney. I'll bet that Zenhole is really a Dick, Cheney or otherwise.
 

may

Well-Known Member
I hear it didn't even once mention the Carter Administration's funding (and supply of weapons) via the CIA of the Mujahadin even before the invasion of the Soviets. Is that so?
This is the second time I have read this from you and as I don't know of this, I don't think that its the truth. I would like you tell me whats your point for saying this?

I agree with Vi that Carter was the worst president that I know of and for sure within my lifetime.

Are you trying to connect him to the invasion?

Are you saying that he wasn't wimp and that the moslem brotherhood and their ilk didn't see his presidency as a time for change?

Do you have any proof of this?

I'm sure having written this twice you have a point to make, so please make it for me/yourself and others. if you would.

Having a good grasp of the facts. I can't see any reason why any of the pertinent facts would be changed and to be honest I can see little reason to change anything, hell it would make a good movie without any change. But thats just what I think, and if the timing is right I will watch it, but I will not go out of my way.

I think med could learn a few things from this movie. If you remember the chinese AK-47s thing med.
 

VTXDave

Well-Known Member
This is the second time I have read this from you and as I don't know of this, I don't think that its the truth. I would like you tell me whats your point for saying this?

I agree with Vi that Carter was the worst president that I know of and for sure within my lifetime.

Are you trying to connect him to the invasion?

Are you saying that he wasn't wimp and that the moslem brotherhood and their ilk didn't see his presidency as a time for change?

Do you have any proof of this?

I'm sure having written this twice you have a point to make, so please make it for me/yourself and others. if you would.

Having a good grasp of the facts. I can't see any reason why any of the pertinent facts would be changed and to be honest I can see little reason to change anything, hell it would make a good movie without any change. But thats just what I think, and if the timing is right I will watch it, but I will not go out of my way.

I think med could learn a few things from this movie. If you remember the chinese AK-47s thing med.
OK...
CRG -- The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.
Brzezinski was Carter's National Security Advisor at the time.

This quote adds a nice touch as well...
I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war.
If you'd like a more detailed description of how the Carter Administration was involved prior to the invasion, may I suggest "Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire" by Chalmers Johnson. A rather sobering read.

So you see, by his Nat'l Security Advisor's own words, one might say that the Carter Administration precipitated the Soviet invasion, yes?
 

medicineman

New Member
Well then, since it was the Afghanistan-soviet war that brought down the soviet empire, you might say that Carter was a genious, right? I mean all the repukes did was talk about how to do it and Carter did it, Genious. Now you may also have to say that Osama Bin Laden was/is a genious for bringing down America. He picked the right idiot president to unleash his war and the idiot fell right into his trap and invaded Iraq. As in what goes around comes around. We're fucked, thanks Osama/Bush. I think they may be in Cahoots as if you remember after 911, Bush flew all the Bin Ladens out of the US when no other planes could fly. Also, the Bin Ladens are old time financial backers of Papa Bush and Jr.
 

may

Well-Known Member
OK...
CRG -- The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Brzezinski was Carter's National Security Advisor at the time.

This quote adds a nice touch as well...
If you'd like a more detailed description of how the Carter Administration was involved prior to the invasion, may I suggest "Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire" by Chalmers Johnson. A rather sobering read.

So you see, by his Nat'l Security Advisor's own words, one might say that the Carter Administration precipitated the Soviet invasion, yes?
Hell I know all that but you havn't shown where any arms ect were given and as I said do you have any proof of this?
I take it what you said was a hit on carter.

What you should know is the aid was in the form of covert propaganda and that was what carter's executive order was for.
The soviets had Daoud killed after he proclaimed a republic and eased up on the people somewhat and then Taraki set up a marxist regime. The soviets had a lot of boots on the ground for years before this and the soviets started deployment of the 40th army a month after carter signed the order. Do you really think that the propaganda was so good and fast that that was what brought the 40th in?

I see little reason to read a book by some spinmaster.

Do you have any proof of what you have stated?

Yes I have read Brzezinski's words on this and they were just him bragging, but I have never read him saying that arms or any such were given, if you know of any such please let me know.
 

medicineman

New Member
Well, there were those pesky stinger missles and those pesky chinese AK 47s, But who knows, it could have been the tooth fairy. I imagine a few of those chinese AK47s have bit a few of our boys, don't you?
 

VTXDave

Well-Known Member
I see little reason to read a book by some spinmaster.

Do you have any proof of what you have stated?

Yes I have read Brzezinski's words on this and they were just him bragging,
Yep, you sure got me there. I have no proof other than the words of the former Nat'l Security Advisor and a well thought out book that you claim to be authored by a spinmaster. I'm sure when Johnson outlines the monies given to the Muhajadin by the CIA, it was spent on propaganda material and not weaponry.
 

may

Well-Known Member
Yep, you sure got me there. I have no proof other than the words of the former Nat'l Security Advisor and a well thought out book that you claim to be authored by a spinmaster. I'm sure when Johnson outlines the monies given to the Muhajadin by the CIA, it was spent on propaganda material and not weaponry.
Are you trying to spin this yourself? Show me where he says anything but aid. Then check out what carter signed in his executive order IT was authorizing the CIA to conduct COVERT PROPAGANDA., not to give arms. As I said I have little love for carter and he caused real problems for the world and the US.

You need to check out your facts and not be so fast to come to a conclusion. Spin is everywhere, read the order. Show facts not yours or others spin. I don't fall for bullsht even if you believe in it. I understand how you could fall for this but I have yet to see any Proof, If you can find some I will thank you for it.
 

VTXDave

Well-Known Member
Are you trying to spin this yourself? Show me where he says anything but aid. Then check out what carter signed in his executive order IT was authorizing the CIA to conduct COVERT PROPAGANDA., not to give arms. As I said I have little love for carter and he caused real problems for the world and the US.

You need to check out your facts and not be so fast to come to a conclusion. Spin is everywhere, read the order. Show facts not yours or others spin. I don't fall for bullsht even if you believe in it. I understand how you could fall for this but I have yet to see any Proof, If you can find some I will thank you for it.
Oh I do check them out. I was once a brown shirt neo-con until I woke up. Carter's directive in July of 1979 allowed for money to support the Mujahadin...$30 million in the first 6 months in fact. No, we did not directly give them weapons, but they had funding. When we did become actively involved in supplies of weapons it was via Pakistan and their ISI. We also began training them prior to the invasion.

Without reading Johnson's book, I suppose you and I will view this differently.

In his memoirs, former CIA director Robert Gates (1991-1993) said that the U.S. provoked the December 1979 Soviet intervention in Afghanistan by giving military assistance to the mujahideen. Gates recalls a meeting, nine
months earlier, on March 30, 1979, when Under Secretary of Defense Walter Slocombe said “there was value in keeping the Afghan insurgency going, ‘sucking the Soviets into a Vietnamese quagmire.’”

In 1998, this U.S. effort to entrap the Soviets in the Afghan civil war, was confirmed by Zbigniew Brzezinski, Carter’s National Security Advisor (1977-1981). Brzezinski bragged that by covertly arming and financing the
mujahideen, the U.S. deliberately drew the Soviets into the
war:...
I suppose if you want to call propaganda "military assistance" it's OK but the way I see it this can run the gamut from just giving them funds to maintain an insurrection to military training all the way to provisioning them with weapons. I suppose that when he handed the Mujahadin the cash and said "Only spend this on propaganda material!" they complied wholeheartedly. :D
 

ViRedd

New Member
Aren't AK-47s Soviet weapons? I believe we had AR-15s. .... But then, I'm no gun expert. Maybe Med knows.

Vi
 

may

Well-Known Member
Oh I do check them out. I was once a brown shirt neo-con until I woke up.
What you have written shows you to still be asleep.
If you do check out your facts, then why are you spinning this?
Carter's directive in July of 1979 allowed for money to support the Mujahadin...$30 million in the first 6 months in fact. No, we did not directly give them weapons, but they had funding.
The funding was for propaganda as per Carter's drective, and if you know what was going on in Afghanistan you would understand that intill 12/25/79 that they had far more weapons than the soviets did [in afghanistan and truly for a while after] so a need for weapons didn't exist.
When we did become actively involved in supplies of weapons it was via Pakistan and their ISI.
I think that most that post here know that, and that this happened after the soviets invaded.
We also began training them prior to the invasion.
We did? Where do you get this from? Do you have proof of this? The only training that I know of any proof of was for the stingers, do you have proof of this?
Without reading Johnson's book, I suppose you and I will view this differently.
Yes maybe we will as the only spin I spend time on would be my own, as in the GW thread in my last post to email, at the end I said do you think that mars has a volcano? To see if he would pick up on it as he had shown he may of know something of the planets so I was hoping he would get it. I always hope people understand in my quest for intelligence and I am always disappointed.
I suppose if you want to call propaganda "military assistance"
Dave it was Brzezinski who spun popaganda into military assistance although the truth is that propaganda could be said to and is a form of military assistance. Anyone thinking that help was needed to cause problems in afafghanistan doesn't know beans about its history, and Amin bumping off Taraki who was a soviet puppet then making overtures to china, n. korea and the US was more than enough.
it's OK but the way I see it this can run the gamut from just giving them funds to maintain an insurrection to military training all the way to provisioning them with weapons. I suppose that when he handed the Mujahadin the cash and said "Only spend this on propaganda material!"
So you have some proof that cash was handed to the mujahadin? Who handed this cash over and and to what mujahadin? There were a lot of factions mujahadin, I wander if you know just how many there were?

Brzezinski's spin was selfserving and your quote just was spinning his spin, because as for as I know he only said that military assistance was given and that is just a bit of spin that has been respun by others and as I have said it wouldn't have been helpfull nor needed.

As for Gates his long time friend Goodman who worked with him for many years testified that he lacked vision, integrity and courage. Also his role in Iran-Contra and his spinnin that the Soviets had a role in the papal plot and spinning of almost everything he had an assessment of. I just wander why you would even bring him up?
 

medicineman

New Member
Yes, AK-47s are Russian made, and they sold them to whoever wanted to buy them.
That's not necessarily true. The soviets sold the patent rights to many others. The AKs in Afghanistan I believe were made in China. The one I own was made in Bulgaria. They're made all over the world, S. America even. They are the ultimate battlefield weapon as they never jam and are always ready to fire. They are cheap to make and easy to clean. They break into three subsections for field cleaning and that is all you ever need to do to maintain them. they will work in the deserts of africa or in the antartic. a great invention for warfare. I'm glad I own one, never know when we may have to take up arms against the rich, the oppressors!!!
 

may

Well-Known Member
Well then, since it was the Afghanistan-soviet war that brought down the soviet empire, you might say that Carter was a genious, right? I mean all the repukes did was talk about how to do it and Carter did it, Genious.
Carter was a wimp and this gave rise to radical Islam in Iran, not that there wasn't other factors involved. l think you have also forgotten Solidarity and SDI ect.ect..
Why would you not give the credit to Wilson?
If you wish to give credit to Carter, then the mujahideen ousting soviets gave a hell of a boost to radical Islam and gave rise to Osama.
It would be hard for me not to give credit wilson for helping, but I think the truth is if the soviets and the mujahideen had been left to slowly bleed each other in afghanistan the world would be a lot better off today.

The truth is med your just a simple ASS and you would be the loudist in the crowd hollering for some ones head or to burn the witches. This is not to say that I don't have a soft spot for you because I do.

Now you may also have to say that Osama Bin Laden was/is a genious for bringing down America.
Hes not a genious nor did he bring down America, but I truely don't think anyone here understands how bad the harm was that was done to the US by the lose of the Trade Center, this was also not picked by the blind fuck eather.

He picked the right idiot president to unleash his war and the idiot fell right into his trap and invaded Iraq. As in what goes around comes around. We're fucked, thanks Osama/Bush. I think they may be in Cahoots as if you remember after 911, Bush flew all the Bin Ladens out of the US when no other planes could fly. Also, the Bin Ladens are old time financial backers of Papa Bush and Jr.
Med I think you are smarter than you show but you are a long way from understanding anything.
 

may

Well-Known Member
That's not necessarily true. The soviets sold the patent rights to many others. The AKs in Afghanistan I believe were made in China. The one I own was made in Bulgaria. They're made all over the world, S. America even. They are the ultimate battlefield weapon as they never jam and are always ready to fire. They are cheap to make and easy to clean. They break into three subsections for field cleaning and that is all you ever need to do to maintain them. they will work in the deserts of africa or in the antartic. a great invention for warfare. I'm glad I own one, never know when we may have to take up arms against the rich, the oppressors!!!
The different versions of the AK-47 have killed more people than all of the arms ever sold by the US.
 

medicineman

New Member
The truth is med your just a simple ASS and you would be the loudist in the crowd hollering for some ones head or to burn the witches. This is not to say that I don't have a soft spot for you because I do.

Why thank you May. Coming from you that is about the most complementary thing I could expect. I am proud to be a simple man, salt of the earth. it may be my Indian blood or my Peyote affiliation, but I'd rather be barefoot than in a 500.00 pair of shoes. It's funny how educated fools from un-educated schools always feel superior. Must be something in the water at those schools.
 
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