CaMg Deficiency and Brown Roots? DWC

[Cliff Notes] - Possibly CaMG Deficiency. Slight browning of roots. DWC. Res changed with new nutes and looking they are looking fine again! Possible light leak maybe? [End Cliff Notes]

I am using and measuring with, Bluelab Guardian (EC x 700). Rez measured the below measurements and it stayed like that for about 4 days, nothing changed. PPM 880 / Temp 70F (21C) / PH 5.4

On day 5, the PH dropped to 5.3PH. Noticing some purple stems, figured I'll wait for seven days and do a rez. change. On day 6 noticed little specs on some of the leaves, what I believe may be progressing CaMg deficiency, figured I would just wait one more day and change the res.

Then looked at the roots and noticed slight browning on one of the girls! So I decided to change the Res on day 6 asap! I let roots sit out while I gave res a rinse with hot water and then emptied it. Then I ran RO water on the roots for a minute or two, then dunked them in the ro water a few times. I know I should have used some hydrogen-peroxide (don't have any right now), I may start implementing it a little, daily.
^(I want to note that otherwise the water in the res looked perfectly clean. I do use a suction cup to keep my PH pen from banging around and it looks like there is a little bit of Algae? on it. Does that mean there might be a light leak? I am using neoprenes, so I thought it was light-tight.)

After that I refilled the res and let the roots get some more air while filling. Added regular GH line. I also added Silica this time (for the first time, at the recommend feeding). Since then they look good! Still could use some info on the brown roots? (Was it a by-product of the CaMg deficiency, or is it another problem lurking?)

Possibly pythium if your roots look to be rotting. this can spread to other plants if thats the issue. h202 can help as you mentioned. from the pic of the leaf, i do not see a calmag issue right now.

So would that be from water temperature? (I thought I was okay to 74F / 24C). I have a chiller but have not hooked it up, as I am building my rdwc now.

I may then start implementing H202 asap as well. Is this like, death.. start over now? (like the way mites keep bugging you no matter what you do) ... or can it be defeated?

temps can play a big role in controlling pythium. high temps over 75 are bad. 65 to 70 should be okay. you can try to reverse the issue with h202 but be careful with dilution rates. where will you start? 1.5% is a good starting point and you could even do a root dip into it for a set period of time. maybe 30 seconds? let us know.m

I will most likely be starting with an over the counter 3 or 7% Hydrogen Peroxide.

I've read 3ml/Gallon of 35% HP, so 30ml/Gallon of a 3% HP solution? (seems high?!) (18gallon x 30ml of 3%hp would be more than an entire bottle. A regular bottle being 500ml.) I feel like 20ml for a first time dosage would be adequate, but I've never really dosed this before.

My temp has never been over 70F/ 21C. It starts at 64F/18C and goes up to the prior degree and stays there. (this is without a chiller.)

This is killing me here... i feel like I've ran into every micro problem I could have since starting this project lol. And I've been trying to keep this as optimal or close to optimal as possible.

edit: I just had another look and this are looking about 70% better! (just from the res change.) I still will probably implement some H202 as a preventative, at least until I get my chiller/rdwc up and running. Maybe add ice to keep them a degree or two colder (might up ph, but I'd deal with that over root rot!) ...But that is a relief!

edit: This just came to mind....the container might not be completely 100% light proof! It's maybe like 90-95% light proof. Will change container but for now I will solve this to!
I figured the slightly rust spots was CalMag deficiency? The stems get purple, i give CaMg and they get nice and green, and then the next day start to get a little purple again slowly.

They look like they're getting a little worse! I'm not too certain what to do at this point.

I mentioned after my last rez change they were looking a little better. PPM was 1800 after rez mix, so I added 2 more gal RO water to bring PPM to 1600, PH 5.2, Temp 66F/19C. Since the last rez change ph has come up to 5.5ph and Water Temp + PPM stayed the same.

[GH line - Silica, CaMg, Micro, Grow, Bloom, Rapid Start, FloraBlend]

Since wrapping the container to make it light tight, water temp has been stable at 66F (19C).

I'm not to worried about the few rust spots, I think if it's not CaMg deficiency it's a little over fed or just from misting to keep humidity up. Either way, it just happened that one time and never got worse so it's not a big problem. But......

I had put 30ml (3% HP) in about 1L of water, Dunked the roots in that water, swished it around for about 30 seconds. Then added about 50Ml (3% HP) to the res and put the girls back in. Roots were looking a little less brown after the wash. This morning they look more brown again and a little bit droopy!
(The other two girls who's roots aren't too bad, in the same rez!, are nice and perky.)

Should I do another 1L water dunk with the roots, then re-clean the res and just put in 3%HP+CaMg+Ro-Water and no other nutes?

(Building my RDWC, I don't want to move them from 18G of water to 60+G, if the problem will get worse/spread through that much water.)

Rust Spots

Two girls unaffected roots

Two girls Affected roots

I feel like it might be "Brown Slime". Can anyone confirm? (I was reading the pinned thread on it... where a tea was recommended).

However I don't really want to go that route, since the tea only lasts ten days and I don't want to have to keep brewing tea again. (It's not that I don't want to, it's that the physical labour intensive activities are already at a peak with this grow and it's hard to keep adding more tasks.) Although, I am still considering it because it seems like a highly effective possible-solution.

I'm also considering just getting Hydrogaurd, but budget is maxed, so I don't want to get it if it's not going to work. I also considered a diluted bleach cleaning? They're still really small, and far from flower so I'm not to concerned of them taking any up that bleach/chlorine into the final product.

On a side note, does anyone think it's just stained roots from the nutes and not actually cause for concern? (that would be nice, but I'm not to optimistic on that.)

I am also wondering if Flora Blend may be causing problems? (Not original caused...but could it be making the slime worse?) (description below)

FloraBlend is produced with a mixture of highly bioactive microorganisms that are fed a feast of select food sources in a hyperoxygenated environment. Beneficial microorganisms multiply rapidly, consuming the food through bioconversion processes, new organic compounds are formed. These organic compounds are enzymes, metabolites & organic acids, which energize the plant's metabolic processes.

Click to expand...

Could this be completely fighting the fact that I'm trying to use h202? (Is it like Sterile vs Beneficial) Should I drop The Flora Blend from line-up for now? (Or find bene's to complement the Flora?, like the tea.)
....I'm really just starting to actually, properly understand this whole sterile vs beneficial thing...finally!

This is what I've concluded, fighting this with H2O2 is going to be like a never ending war. I need to fix and balance my res... so I will be introducing tea soon! Hopefully, after a thorough scrubbing (and after I brew some!) it goes as planned! Got the myco just need to fetch me some earthworm casting and I'll be good to go!

If anyone has any other advice I'm always open!

I hear ya... the beneficials are supposed to keep the pythium root rot from becoming an issue.. doesnt always work. Good luck though. Enzymes and beneficials are your friend but you are right that h202 kills off some or all of the good guys. Water can be a source of pythium keep that in mind. Not sure how you supply your water..

Thanks for hanging around Rex!

It's Ro Water, although my tap water could have been useable. I'm really leaning towards brown slime, as the H2O2 spraying and root washing I've been doing works, but then it comes back the next day.

On a plus note, I'm winning the battle... I never give up! .... I see a few new white roots coming out the bottoms a few places, so the girls are fighting as well! H2O2 will keep things at bay until my Tea formula is ready!

Your spots look like a cal deficiency.

Back in the day when I did DWC i learned never to add anything organic. I always got the slime when I did.

If the brown stuff is slimy, it's algae. You have to prevent all light from getting to the water to prevent algae. It's also possible to be just nutrient stain. Looks like your water is brown with nutes perhaps, so it might just be nute stain. If it's slime then you have a real problem. Do research on how to control it.

Abe, Yeah that's what I was originally thinking. Maybe I'll just up my CaMg dosage a bit over their recommended and see how that goes. They don't seem to mind it if I add an extra bit anyways.

Polish, I actually think it might be both! I've been doing some reading and found many others who complain about "stained" roots from using the Flora Blend (Organic Compost Tea). I believe this, in combination with the minor light leak I had before (fixed now) may have started this problem!

...The roots are slightly brown, but there are some parts where they are a little bit lumped together and a bit more darker brown/ slimey looking sort of. However some of those older roots in that clump have gotten thicker and strong to, from like a thin-white-root, to a thicker-fiberous-rope. After rinsing roots it goes away mostly, but comes back after putting them back in res. Additionally, the two who's roots seem the worst, have somewhat stunted growth and are drooping, so I do not believe that it is solely stained roots.
^Spraying roots directly with 3%HP helps them though.... then I dunk them back in the res and add some more HP in there.

I will hold back on the Flora Blend next res change, until my Heisengberg Tea is brewed. Then disinfect everything, and hopefully off to the races again. Today is my res change day so I'm going to cut most of my nute line to the bare 3-part+CaMg+Silica and RapidStart, and I'll probably do a little bit of a cleaning again to. (I have Humic Acid, FloraNectar and Floralicious as well, which I have not introduced at all yet, and will not be introducing yet.)

I hope others can find this thread useful to! It helps to have some extra opinions, and also for me to write out my thought process.

Best of luck to you. But my advice is if you wanna run organics and teas, fill that tote up with coco. Thats what I did and never looked back.

Organics and teas always caused PH swings and fighting root issues/slime. Especially without a cooler for the dwc solution. I eventually just ran the H& G aqua flakes lineup with no,organics and had killer results in comparison. But Im a coco believer now with mostly teas and organics.

Thanks for the tips. I'm not really that crazy over running organics. (It's nice, but it's a lot of work outside of soil from what I've read.) The reason I went hydro was to eliminate the need of carrying soil.

My chiller will be ran in it's own close loop with a wart chiller.

[Update]

So I did a complete res change, wiped res down with a wet cloth (that was dipped in a diluted bleach solution). Then rinsed with hot water. Washed the roots, they were brown (strained?) but had some small spots here and there of what I believe is brown slime. [My suction cup for ph pen had some brown slime on it again to!] This was with the Flora blend res.

Roots were dipped in diluted HP/RO water solution, and then into a new clean res. Since then, so far everything in the root zone looks good. slight brown stained from the Flora Blend I believe, but No new signs of any algae/slime! In the new res change I did not add any Flora Blend. (I noticed the roots overall were strong, and not slimey or weak feeling at all.)

My tea has brewed and I will be adding that in later today, and using it as a "preventative" from now on.

[Question / problem]

Since then two girls that were affected look Really droopy. But the leaves feel somewhat dry. It looks like, when you heavily over-water a soil plant.
- The only "off" thing I see is my humidity (which is low), could that be causing that big of a problem? (I do mist them with RO water periodically, and I even have a humidifier going).
- Could it just be backlash from the slime it just battled?
Res: 1300PPM / 65F (18C) / 5.4PH. / ~14Gal. 4 air stones + (GH air pump-320 GPH/24,800 cc/min)
Temp: 75F (24C) Humidity: low15% / high40% ..it bounces.
Nutes (In order): Silica, CalMag, Micro, Grow, Bloom, Rapid Start.
Light: 400W LED ~18" away.


And as far as nutes go; Moving forward, should I Avoid adding FloraBlend? (Even with the Bennies Tea) I also have these, would I be okay running these below?
- Diamond Nectar - Humic Acid (I'm guessing this is a No go in hydro? Although the bottle on back does have hydro dosage label)
- Flora Nectar
- KoolBloom
- Floralicious Plus

I gotta ask... why do you feel the need to add those supplements? You should be able to get great results from a 2 or 3 part liquid hydro solution. I understand you brewed the tea already and that could help fight off pythium... but it sounds like you arent 100% sure it is pythium causing the brown roots although I read you have found some brown slime....

If the roots are truly shooting out new white root tips.. maybe just stick with the salts for now... I understand though if you dont want to waste that tea. Your high humidity is 40% and low is 15%... You could certainly raise that to 60% in veg and see healthier plants. Their rate of transpiration will change and it could help those sad wilted looking plants. Flower cycle needs to be 40% and lower until finally 15% or even lower if possible just before harvest

@2011rex87 I was originally going to run Lucas but the way the bottles were priced it was basically the same for me to get the 3-part.
Then I figured why not just run the entire line and see if/how there is a difference compared to what I was getting before. I've read Silica is supposed to be very helpful, I had good success when I played around with rapidstart... so I was more inclined to give the whole line-up a try. So now I have the entire line and I figured I might as well make use of it. I'd like to run what I can and see how it turns out, if not I'll keep them for watering hemp buckets.
But once I'm done with these bottles I'm going to either be very happy and stick with it, or go back to Lucas or try Remo Nutes.

I feel it was a combination of both root stain from the flora blend, and brown slime for an earlier light leak and possibly the flora blend as well.

The day I did the cleaning, I noticed there were a new root or two sticking out here and there, since then they seem stunted.(CORRECTION! - There has not been much root growth in the Res...but in the net pot above the RW cube white fuzzy roots are shooting every which way!)

Plus I've read the tea is a good preventative for root rot as well, and the ECW is supposed to aid in good root health. After doing more reading I'd rather run bennies over sterile. I did start the tea, will be keeping a close eye on them and see how they like it.

@Joint Monster

1. Are you positive there is slime? can you see the goop? I cant tell from the pics.

2. You may want to head on over to my grow thread, link in my sig. I know how you feel with the stress, so after you read through that and need some help I am here for ya to save some of your sanity.

You will need to drain and cleanup, you need to stop the H2O2, and you need to make the brew, nothing fancy at all. lets grow with bennies together

I know you don't want to do the brew, after you do it you will see how simple it is.

EDIT I read your thread more closely, you really need to follow what I did, see my grow journal and see what it does. Your spots are not from a deficiency from the nutes, its the brown slime. I had the same problem, I can take pics of those leaves ( I kinda pruned a bit tonight but I have a few on the same "nodes" as the time of the problem, its like a time capsule!).

This is cyanobacteria, I have dealt with it in the reef aquarium many times in the past. Did not know it came in hydro as well lol.

You need to start light nutes, no additives, especially sugar. sugar will feed the slime so you need to brew that tea so the sugar content is gone. once you have it under control you can start to mess with additives. Pour your initial dose from the top of the pots so they get a nice good concentrated start right in the zone. Start with 3 cups per 10 gal (if you have 20 gal+) or 1-2 cups per 10 gal. you cant really overdue it so don't get hung up on the dosage. Keep adding your refrigerated left overs a bit every day (1-3 cups per 10 gal) then after a week you can lower the dosage to every few days. Adding somewhere for bennies to live like sponge or something porous will help keep it more stable for the cycle and water changes.

Hey thanks titan! <3 Your thread is looking good! I will be following you along now to!

I'm like 98% sure it's slime. It was on the suction cup for sure! Some spots in the roots, in the pics above it's where they were slightly more brown spots. After the cleaning process I described above it has been good.

It's been a day since the first tea dosage. I applied according to heisenberg's dosage - put about 10 cups in 18 gal. Pics were from a little earlier than 24 hours after the tea.

The roots got some black gunk from the tea, which is supposedly normal from what I've read. Prior to that, the roots did not seem to get reinfected since my last thorough cleaning.

Overall it looks like they really liked the Tea! Still a little droopy, but the roots are doing good!

After cleaning slime - before the droop.


Droop After they perked up (post clean). Those are just paper plates to be extra sure there is no light leak. There are neoprene inserts under them. First set of leaves are a little yellow, this res change I only went with about 1300ppm, but I may up it a little next res change.
I wanted to top them/ defoliate a little, but I don't want to stress them any more, So I will wait. (Imo they look a little small for about 3 weeks from seed, but there is decent growth under those fan leaves.)


Roots popping out at the top. White and Fuzzy! (I did Not top feed the Tea because I did not have a strainer, so I just put it in a bottle and loosened the cap and slowly poured it in the res. I did brew the EWC in a stocking but some still got in the water.)


This was the Affected girls roots after the tea. That is not slime, just some gunk from the tea.... I'm guessing the ECW from the tea maybe? Roots seem to like it, I will stay the course as Heisenberg suggests.


This was the affected girls roots from the top, after the tea.


This is the unaffected girls roots after the tea. She also really liked it!

damn I forgot to sub this thread. Looks like its doing good. I had a little bit of the dark stuff too. not as much as this though. The black stuff may be pythium but the plant seems to just tame the area and the new stuff keeps on coming. You described the same symptoms I had with the drooping during the recovery time.

I still add my brew at least every 4 or 5 days and sprinkle a little Great White. I added a filter sponge in my res for a microbe home.

Tip: with a microbe system you need to be careful with water changes. My last water change I did too early after the EWC treatment. all my roots turned brown because of the imbalance. a day of slow growth but the brown didn't seem to affect it. Do you first water change 2-3 weeks in so the water has a chance to stabilize and don't do more than 60% changes.