Another Stand Your Ground Shooting

A Houston man on trial for fatally shooting his neighbor says he was acting in self defense and his home video can prove it. Raul Rodriguez, a former firefighter, was recording his argument with neighbors, when he shot and killed Kelly Danaher, an elementary school teacher, and wounded two other people in May 2010. The 22-minute homemade video is the key to the trial, but what's on the video might be in the eye of the beholder.

"This is a difficult defense to mount," says Dana Cole, legal analyst and defense attorney. "He had no injury, he brought a gun to a noise complaint, and it appeared he was escalating it, by baiting the party-goers."

It was after midnight when Rodriguez, complaining to police over the phone that the music was too loud, walked up to Danaher's driveway with a flashlight and gun. On the video, Rodriguez can be heard talking to a 911 operator, saying, "I'm running the video camera right now and I'm talking to you and I mean, I'm scared to death here." In the unfolding confrontation between Rodriguez and several unidentified men, one yells, "Tell you what, pal, you just pulled a gun on the wrong [expletive], OK?"

When one of the party-goers saw Rodriguez's gun, he suggested he is getting his own. "When I go in that house and come back," he warned, "don't think I won't be equal to you, baby." "It's about to get out of hand sir, please help me. Please help me, my life is in danger now…," Rodriguez told police over the phone. "Now, I'm standing my ground here. Now, these people are going to try and kill me."

Seconds later, a fight about loud music ends with the crack of gunfire.

"Look, I'm not losing to these people anymore," Rodriguez said. "I'm just totally going to stay back, because they're drunk, they're…"

Rodriguez is interrupted by wild laughter, and then the sound of gunfire, before the tape stops as Rodriguez is tackled to the ground. In addition to the shot that killed Danaher, Houston Fire Capt. Ricky Johnson and Marshall Stetson received multiple gunshot wounds after the camera stopped recording. Rodriguez, a father of six, walked away from the incident unharmed.

The trial is expected to last about a week.

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Way to go, NRA. The Stand-Your-Ground bills you wrote, sponsored, and were instrumental in getting passed, give people a loophole for murder. All so you could sell more guns and make more profit.

No way he would get away with that, he was trespassing and he pulled the gun first.

Carne Seca said:

Way to go, NRA. The Stand-Your-Ground bills you wrote, sponsored, and were instrumental in getting passed, give people a loophole for murder. All so you could sell more guns and make more profit.

Click to expand...

Why bring a gun to speak with your neighbours, then pull it, for what reason? what the hell is the police response times in these states?

It sucks when two losers both want to "SYG", who wins then, the better shot?
It is a shame that a human life means nothing to these people

regards,

ru4r34l said:

Why bring a gun to speak with your neighbours, then pull it, for what reason? what the hell is the police response times in these states?

It sucks when two losers both want to "SYG", who wins then, the better shot?
It is a shame that a human life means nothing to these people

regards,

Click to expand...

Take 10 paces to solve your differences?

You can use a gun to stand your physical ground if under attack. You cannot use a gun to stand your ground in a verbal argument.

Carne Seca said:

Way to go, NRA. The Stand-Your-Ground bills you wrote, sponsored, and were instrumental in getting passed, give people a loophole for murder. All so you could sell more guns and make more profit.

Click to expand...

I still lived in Houston in May 2010, when this incident happened, there was no "stand your ground" law. Bringing up a 2 year old story that has nothing to do with the Florida law, other than the perp saying "I'm standing my ground", is disingenuous, at the very least.
If you hate the 2nd amendment, go to North Korea, they have the ultimate gun control there.

Mr Neutron said:

I still lived in Houston in May 2010, when this incident happened, there was no "stand your ground" law. Bringing up a 2 year old story that has nothing to do with the Florida law, other than the perp saying "I'm standing my ground", is disingenuous, at the very least.
If you hate the 2nd amendment, go to North Korea, they have the ultimate gun control there.

Click to expand...

Thank you for that, figures as much. It sounded like a political stunt but I was giving it the leeway that it could be true cause I didn't feel like researching it.

2nd Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia[1][2] and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.

regards,

ru4r34l said:

2nd Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia[1][2] and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.

regards,

Click to expand...

"Keep and bear..."

ru4r34l said:

2nd Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia[1][2] and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.

regards,

Click to expand...

Opinion or can you cite the origin?

Mr Neutron said:

I still lived in Houston in May 2010, when this incident happened, there was no "stand your ground" law. Bringing up a 2 year old story that has nothing to do with the Florida law, other than the perp saying "I'm standing my ground", is disingenuous, at the very least.
If you hate the 2nd amendment, go to North Korea, they have the ultimate gun control there.

Click to expand...

[youtube]9RaAgI7eZMg[/youtube]

Mr Neutron said:

I still lived in Houston in May 2010, when this incident happened, there was no "stand your ground" law. Bringing up a 2 year old story that has nothing to do with the Florida law, other than the perp saying "I'm standing my ground", is disingenuous, at the very least.
If you hate the 2nd amendment, go to North Korea, they have the ultimate gun control there.

Click to expand...

“Stand your ground” in Texas was an amendment to House Bill 1815, passed by the 80th Session of the Texas Legislature, which convened from January through May 2007. The bill passed the House with 137 yeas and no nays, with two present, not voting. In the Senate, the vote was 30 to 0 in a voice vote. It was then submitted to Gov. Rick Perry, who immediately signed it into law. It then went into effect Sept. 1st.

Before 2007, the existing statute required an “actor”– the owner of property, for example – to retreat if a reasonable person in the actor’s situation would have retreated. The 2007 amendments adopted by the state’s legislators significantly expanded the areas covered by the duty to retreat. It, in fact, abolished the duty to retreat if the defendant (or actor) can show that 1) he had the right to be present at the location where deadly force was used; 2) did not provoke the person against whom deadly force was used and 3) was not engaged in criminal activity at the time deadly force was used ... and the potential applications of this exception was not limited to the actor’s habitation.

Hey Neutron. Full of shit, much?

Carne Seca said:

“Stand your ground” in Texas was an amendment to House Bill 1815, passed by the 80th Session of the Texas Legislature, which convened from January through May 2007. The bill passed the House with 137 yeas and no nays, with two present, not voting. In the Senate, the vote was 30 to 0 in a voice vote. It was then submitted to Gov. Rick Perry, who immediately signed it into law. It then went into effect Sept. 1st.

Before 2007, the existing statute required an “actor”– the owner of property, for example – to retreat if a reasonable person in the actor’s situation would have retreated. The 2007 amendments adopted by the state’s legislators significantly expanded the areas covered by the duty to retreat. It, in fact, abolished the duty to retreat if the defendant (or actor) can show that 1) he had the right to be present at the location where deadly force was used; 2) did not provoke the person against whom deadly force was used and 3) was not engaged in criminal activity at the time deadly force was used ... and the potential applications of this exception was not limited to the actor’s habitation.

Hey Neutron. Full of shit, much?

Click to expand...

Naw, you have it all.
Here it is, show me where it says "stand you ground"...
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[TD="width: 600, colspan: 2"]80R7219 JPL-D[/TD]
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[/TR]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 400"]By: Isett[/TD]
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[TABLE="width: 660"]
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[TD="colspan: 3"][/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 2"]A BILL TO BE ENTITLED[/TD]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 2"]AN ACT[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]relating to the prosecution of certain offenses that involve[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]carrying weapons on a person's property or in a person's vehicle.[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] SECTION 1. Section 46.02, Penal Code, is amended by[/TD]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]amending Subsection (a) and adding Subsections (a-1) and (a-2) to[/TD]
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[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (a) A person commits an offense if the person [he][/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or[/TD]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (1)on the person's own premises or premises under the[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]person's control; or[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (2)inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]that is owned by the person or under the person's control.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (a-1)A person commits an offense if the person[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]her person a handgun in a motor vehicle that is owned by the person[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]or under the person's control at any time in which:[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (1) the handgun is in plain view; or[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (2) the person is:[/TD]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (A)engaged in criminal activity, other than a[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]regulating traffic;[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (B)prohibited by law from possessing a firearm;[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]or[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (C)a member of a criminal street gang, as[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]defined by Section 71.01.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (a-2)For purposes of this section, "premises" includes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]real property and a recreational vehicle that is being used as[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]living quarters, regardless of whether that use is temporary or[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]permanent. In this subsection, "recreational vehicle" means a motor[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]vehicle primarily designed as temporary living quarters or a[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]vehicle that contains temporary living quarters and is designed to[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]be towed by a motor vehicle. The term includes a travel trailer,[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]camping trailer, truck camper, motor home, and horse trailer with[/TD]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]living quarters.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] SECTION 2. Section 46.15(b), Penal Code, as amended by[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]Chapters 1221 and 1261, Acts of the 75th Legislature, Regular[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]Session, 1997, is reenacted and amended to read as follows:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (1) is in the actual discharge of official duties as a[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]member of the armed forces or state military forces as defined by[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]Section 431.001, Government Code, or as a guard employed by a penal[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]institution;[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (2) [is on the person's own premises or premises under[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]the person's control unless the person is an employee or agent of[/TD]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]the owner of the premises and the person's primary responsibility[/TD]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]is to act in the capacity of a security guard to protect persons or[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]property, in which event the person must comply with Subdivision[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"](5);[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] [(3)] is traveling;[/TD]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (3) [(4)] is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or[/TD]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the[/TD]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]actor's residence or motor vehicle, if the weapon is a type commonly[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]used in the activity;[/TD]
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[/TR]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]by the Texas [Board of Private Investigators and] Private Security[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]Board [Agencies], if:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (A) the person is engaged in the performance of[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]the person's duties as a security officer or traveling to and from[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]the person's place of assignment;[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (B) the person is wearing a distinctive uniform;[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]and[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (C) the weapon is in plain view;[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (5) [(6)] is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"][Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes], to carry a concealed[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying;[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (6) [(7)] holds a security officer commission and a[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]personal protection officer authorization issued by the Texas[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"][Board of Private Investigators and] Private Security Board[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"][Agencies] and [who] is providing personal protection under Chapter[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]1702, Occupations Code [the Private Investigators and Private[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]Security Agencies Act (Article 4413(29bb), Vernon's Texas Civil[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]Statutes)]; or[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (7) [(] holds an alcoholic beverage permit or[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]license or is an employee of a holder of an alcoholic beverage[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]permit or license if the person is supervising the operation of the[/TD]
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[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]permitted or licensed premises.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] SECTION 3. Section 46.15(h), Penal Code, is amended to read[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]as follows:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] (h) For the purpose of Subsection (b)(2), "premises" has the[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]meaning assigned by Section 46.02(a-2) [includes a recreational[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]vehicle that is being used by the person carrying the handgun,[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]illegal knife, or club as living quarters, regardless of whether[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]that use is temporary or permanent. In this subsection,[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]"recreational vehicle" means a motor vehicle primarily designed as[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]temporary living quarters or a vehicle that contains temporary[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]living quarters and is designed to be towed by a motor vehicle. The[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]term includes a travel trailer, camping trailer, truck camper,[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]motor home, and horse trailer with living quarters].[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] SECTION 4. The change in law made by this Act applies only[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]to an offense committed on or after the effective date of this Act.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]An offense committed before the effective date of this Act is[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]governed by the law in effect when the offense was committed, and[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]the former law is continued in effect for that purpose. For[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]purposes of this section, an offense was committed before the[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]effective date of this Act if any element of the offense was[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"]committed before that date.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60"][/TD]
[TD="width: 600, colspan: 3"] SECTION 5. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Carne Seca said:

“Stand your ground” in Texas was an amendment to House Bill 1815, passed by the 80th Session of the Texas Legislature, which convened from January through May 2007. The bill passed the House with 137 yeas and no nays, with two present, not voting. In the Senate, the vote was 30 to 0 in a voice vote. It was then submitted to Gov. Rick Perry, who immediately signed it into law. It then went into effect Sept. 1st.

Before 2007, the existing statute required an “actor”– the owner of property, for example – to retreat if a reasonable person in the actor’s situation would have retreated. The 2007 amendments adopted by the state’s legislators significantly expanded the areas covered by the duty to retreat. It, in fact, abolished the duty to retreat if the defendant (or actor) can show that 1) he had the right to be present at the location where deadly force was used; 2) did not provoke the person against whom deadly force was used and 3) was not engaged in criminal activity at the time deadly force was used ... and the potential applications of this exception was not limited to the actor’s habitation.

Hey Neutron. Full of shit, much?

Click to expand...

I don't know who is right in this pissing match between you and Neutron, but please tell me Mr. Seca what, exactly, is wrong with the highlighted portion?

OK, the cut and paste didn't transpose accurately, there are paragraphs crossed out that didn't transpose in the copy, see the original at:
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/80R/billtext/html/HB01815I.htm

desert dude said:

I don't know who is right in this pissing match between you and Neutron, but please tell me Mr. Seca what, exactly, is wrong with the highlighted portion?

Click to expand...

As long as the "actor" has all permits and licenses that are required to carry the gun.. I don't see anything wrong with it....
It basically just gives ppl the right to self defense as long as there not in the middle of committing a criminal act and choose not to run, or running isnt a viable option when faced with an aggressor... At home or away...

jkahndb0 said:

As long as the "actor" has all permits and licenses that are required to carry the gun.. I don't see anything wrong with it....
It basically just gives ppl the right to self defense as long as there not in the middle of committing a criminal act and choose not to run, or running isnt a viable option when faced with an aggressor... At home or away...

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Yeah, I agree.

Permits and licenses is kind of a sore point with me, but I get your point.

desert dude said:

Yeah, I agree.

Permits and licenses is kind of a sore point with me, but I get your point.

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I feel you on that....
In NY, a carry permit is impossible to get.... Even just getting a handgun is hard.. It takes 6 months and now they just changed the laws so it might take longer...
And in the city itself, i dont even think your allowed to own a handgun at all except for a select few.....
/\... Nah, that's not true... But it does cost a few hundred dollars in fees.. and takes 6 months + for the response...LoL

desert dude said:

Yeah, I agree.

Permits and licenses is kind of a sore point with me, but I get your point.

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LOL... you beat me, this time.

i see, SYG laws are designed for the cowards and pussies of the world. makes sense.