American Wildfires

hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
https://www.rollitup.org/t/american-wildfires.1030807/post-15795719
This story made me think about the reforestation efforts that were posted in this thread.



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DESOTO NATIONAL FOREST, Miss. (AP) — When European settlers came to North America, fire-dependent savannas anchored by lofty pines with footlong needles covered much of what became the southern United States.

Yet by the 1990s, logging and clear-cutting for farms and development had all but eliminated longleaf pines and the grasslands beneath where hundreds of plant and animal species flourished.

Now, thanks to a pair of modern day Johnny Appleseeds, landowners, government agencies and nonprofits are working in nine coastal states from Virginia to Texas to bring back pines named for the long needles prized by Native Americans for weaving baskets.

Longleaf pines now cover as much as 7,300 square miles (19,000 square kilometers) — and more than one-quarter of that has been planted since 2010.

“I like to say we rescued longleaf from the dustbin. I don’t think we had any idea how successful we’d be,” said Rhett Johnson, who founded The Longleaf Alliancein 1995 with another Auburn University forestry professor.

That’s not to say that the tall, straight and widely spaced pines will ever gain anything near their once vast extent. But their reach is, after centuries, expanding rather than contracting.

Scientists estimate that longleaf savannas once covered up to 143,750 square miles (372,000 square kilometers), an area bigger than Germany. By the 1990s, less than 3% remained in scattered patches. Most are in areas too wet or dry to farm.

Fire suppression played a critical role on the longleaf’s decline. Fires clear and fertilize ground that longleaf seeds must touch to sprout. Properly timed, they also spark seedlings’ first growth spurt. And, crucially for the entire ecosystem, they kill shrubs and hardwood trees that would otherwise block the sun from seedlings, grasses and wildflowers.

“The diversity of the longleaf pine system is below our knees,” sad Keith Coursey, silviculturist for about 70% of the 529,000-acre (214,100-hectare) DeSoto National Forest in south Mississippi.

Of the 1,600 plant species found only in the Southeast, nearly 900 are only in longleaf forests, including species that trap bugs as well as fire-adapted grasses and wildflowers.

The forests harbor turkeys and quail — but also about 100 other kinds of birds, nearly 40 types of animals and 170 reptile and amphibian species found only among longleaf. One is the gopher tortoise whose burrows shelter scores of animal species including mice, foxes, rabbits, snakes, even birds, and hundreds of kinds of insects.

Plants and animals have lost ground along with the longleaf. Nearly 30 are endangered or threatened. Dozens more are being studied to decide whether they should be protected.

Johnson, who retired in 2006 as director of Auburn’s Solon Dixon Forestry Education Center in south Alabama, said working surrounded by longleaf made him realize that stands were losing quality and shrinking in range. “Just as alarming, people who understood longleaf were disappearing as well,” he said.

Johnson and alliance cofounder Dean Gjerstad spread the word about the tree’s importance. “We were like Johnny Appleseed — we were on the road all the time,” said Johnson, who retired from the alliance in 2012.

By 2005, the alliance, government agencies, nonprofits, universities and private partners were working together. In 2010, they launched America’s Longleaf Restoration Initiative, with a goal of having 12,500 square miles (32,370 square kilometers) of longleaf by 2025.

The initiative built on efforts by federal and state agencies including the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Natural Resources Conservation Service to provide incentives for owners to return land to longleaf pines, Johnson said.

Most of the land planted in the last 10 years had been “highly erodible cropland,” he said. “Better a longleaf plantation than a cotton field.”

The initiative is trying to ensure that at least half the restored land is close enough to existing forests that plants and animals could, over generations, turn the new stands into functioning ecosystems.

When the ecosystem returns, landowners can look forward to annual income from activities such as hunting and wildlife photography rather than only from intermittent timber harvests, said Kevin Norton, acting chief of the National Resources Conservation Service.

Because most longleaf acreage is privately owned, 80% to 85% of the planting so far has been on private land, said Carol Denhof, president of The Longleaf Alliance.

Another 5,160 square miles (13,360 square kilometers) must be planted or reclaimed from stands overly mixed with other tree species to meet the initiative’s 2025 deadline, she said. “I’m hopeful we can get there but ... we have a lot of work to do.”

About 400 acres (160 hectares) of land returned to longleaf were planted by the Alabama-Coushatta Tribe of Texas, for their needles. But branches from most of the first planting are now too high to reach. So Gesse Bullock, the tribe’s fire management specialist, said he is pushing for another planting on the 10,200-acre (4,100-hectare) reservation.

Basket weavers include the tribe’s realty officer, Elliott Abbey. “When I was younger,” he said, “I thought it was work – something my aunts made me do,”

Now, Abbey said, “It strikes me in the heart that this could die out.”
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hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
I really hope that Biden is not distracted by Covid, foreign militaries attacking our citizens, insurrectionist Republicans (who are conspiring with this foreign nations to attack our citizens) that allowed our economy to melt prior to and leading up to the pandemic, and everything else, and has people ready to fire on all cylinders for this summer to deal with the natural disasters.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/explainer-whats-behind-the-heat-wave-in-the-american-west/2021/06/17/7a7a5b3e-cfaa-11eb-a224-bd59bd22197c_story.html
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PHOENIX — Much of the American West has been blasted with sweltering heat this week as a high pressure dome combines with the worst drought in modern history to launch temperatures into the triple digits, toppling records even before the official start of summer.

Record daily highs were seen this week in parts of Arizona, California, New Mexico, Montana, Wyoming and Utah. Phoenix, which is baking in some of the U.S. West’s hottest weather, hit a record-breaking 118 degrees (48 Celsius) Thursday and was expected to reach 116 degrees (46 Celsius) Friday and Saturday.

“Very dangerous record breaking heat should continue today across the deserts with well above normal highs,” the National Weather Service’s Phoenix staff wrote on Facebook. “A very good day to stay indoors.”

WHY IS THE AMERICAN WEST SO HOT THIS WEEK?

The heat comes from a high pressure system over the West, a buckle in the jet stream winds that move across the U.S. and vast swaths of soil sucked dry by a historic drought, said Marvin Percha, a senior meteorologist for the agency in Phoenix.

He and other scientists say the heat wave is unusual because it arrived earlier and is staying longer than in most years.

“June last year, things seemed pretty normal,” noted Park Williams, a University of California, Los Angeles, climate and fire scientist. “The record-breaking heat waves came in August and September.”

But with such an early heat wave this year, “this could be the tip of the iceberg,” Williams said.


WHAT ROLES DO DROUGHT AND CLIMATE CHANGE PLAY?

A two-decade-long dry spell that some scientists refer to as a “megadrought” has sucked the moisture out of the soil through much of the Western United States. Researchers said in a study published last year in the journal Science that man-made climate change tied to the emission of greenhouse gases can be blamed for about half of the historic drought.

Scientists studying the dry period that began in 2000 looked at a nine-state area from Oregon and Wyoming down through California and New Mexico and found only one other that was slightly larger. That drought started in 1575, a decade after St. Augustine, Florida, was founded and before the Pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock in 1620.

The hot weather can be tied to the drought drying out the landscape. Normally, some of the sun’s heat evaporates moisture in the soil, but scientists say the Western soil is so dry that instead that energy makes the air even warmer.

“When the soil is wet, heat waves aren’t so bad,” said Williams, who has calculated that soil in the western half of the nation is the driest it has been since 1895. “But if it’s dry, we are under extreme risk.”


HOW DO RECENT WILDFIRES FIGURE INTO THIS?

Scientists say the wildfires that have erupted in recent days have been fed by the excessive heat across the region. Climate change contributes to the drought conditions and makes trees and shrubs more likely to catch fire.

At least 14 new wildfires broke out this week in Montana and Wyoming as the record heat sparked an early start to the fire season. Firefighters also battled blazes in Arizona and New Mexico.

“From a fire potential standpoint, what is capable this year, it is certainly much more severe than we’ve seen in the past,” U.S. Department of Agriculture fire meteorologist Gina Palma said in a climate briefing Thursday.

Palma said the drought-related fire risks were especially pronounced in higher elevations across much of the U.S. West, from the Rocky Mountains down into the Southwest and parts of California.

“You will be seeing very extreme fire behavior, certainly conditions that we would not normally see in June,” she said.

IS THIS THE NEW NORMAL?

A growing number of scientific studies are concluding that heat waves in some cases can be directly attributed to climate change, said Kristie L. Ebi, a professor at the Center for Health and the Global Environment at the University of Washington.

That means the U.S. West and the rest of the world can expect more extreme heat waves in the future unless officials move to cut down on greenhouse gas emissions, Ebi and other scientists say.

A study last month estimated the percent and number of heat deaths each year that can be attributed to human-caused climate change. It included about 200 U.S. cities and found more than 1,100 deaths a year from climate change-caused heat, representing about 35% of all heat deaths in the country.

On average each year, Phoenix has 23 climate-triggered heat deaths, Los Angeles has 21 and Tucson has 13, the study said.

“Climate change is harming us now,” Ebi said. “It’s a future problem, but it’s also a current problem.”
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hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Here are my questions to the void.

1. Is there a reason why we are not (on a massive scale) drawing in ocean water (using soil to filter the salts/pollution) into the dry areas of our nation? Even if we are just making salt lakes along the way it seems like that would then be easier to micro clean for people in those areas to use.

2. With the ocean warming up, would it be possible to bring the glaciers that are breaking up in the arctic to the north warm areas? Even as they melt another part of a glacier could be behind it moving north and just get a train of ships drawing the cool water to where we need it to be.

3. I forgot the other things I had a random brainfart about. So mainly the two above are something that I really think would be obvious fixes and was curious why I am stupid and just thinking like a Broscientist.
 
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mooray

Well-Known Member
We already do so much wrong with environmental manipulation. In another life I'd be an enviro-terrorist and the first thing I'd do is blow up the aqueduct from NorCal to SoCal.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
mooray said:
We already do so much wrong with environmental manipulation. In another life I'd be an enviro-terrorist and the first thing I'd do is blow up the aqueduct from NorCal to SoCal.
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True (not the blowing up stuff, I don't know much about where or what you are talking about, but think that there is likely things that would occur that you didn't consider too making you just as bad as the people who did shit in the first place when it comes to short sightedness), but we made a monster of a mess and need to figure out how to clean it up.

And now i'm questioning the 'environmental manipulation' thing, that is going down the 'contrails' rabbit hole. So I guess I should ask what you mean by 'environmental manipulation'. I agree with logging/monoculture farming methods, short sightedness of building dams and whatnot (because we now have decades of data understanding the impacts of those dams.

I disagree though that we don't have a million ways that we could do things better knowing that more plants is far better than less of them. And think that with improved farming methods, and cleaning up pollution we can help the planet heal itself from the last couple hundred years of us burning our way across it.


CunningCanuk said:
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M

mooray

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
True (not the blowing up stuff, I don't know much about where or what you are talking about, but think that there is likely things that would occur that you didn't consider too making you just as bad as the people who did shit in the first place when it comes to short sightedness), but we made a monster of a mess and need to figure out how to clean it up.

And now i'm questioning the 'environmental manipulation' thing, that is going down the 'contrails' rabbit hole. So I guess I should ask what you mean by 'environmental manipulation'. I agree with logging/monoculture farming methods, short sightedness of building dams and whatnot (because we now have decades of data understanding the impacts of those dams.

I disagree though that we don't have a million ways that we could do things better knowing that more plants is far better than less of them. And think that with improved farming methods, and cleaning up pollution we can help the planet heal itself from the last couple hundred years of us burning our way across it.


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Like the aqueduct for example, plenty of water in the north, but people like the weather in the desert(south), so all you have to do is make a new "river" and trench for 400 miles from north to south so that people can have their cake and eat it too and create a never-ending growth of resource dependency. The problem *will* come to fruition someday, except everyday we contribute to it and help it grow. We're past the point of ignorance and are into cruelty, like if you had a dog that only birthed dead puppies and you refused to have it spayed because you didn't want to upset the dog by taking it to the vet.

Look to the Native Americans for the principles on how to coexist with what the planet has to offer. Obviously not saying we all need to go full hippie loin cloth, just the principles of resource management. You don't live in a place that doesn't support your life and then expect everyone to fix it for you. That's the cliche American narcissism and it's a cancer. I'd rather cut the cancer out, even though it hurts, instead of feed it, because feeding it leads to death 100% of the time.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
mooray said:
Like the aqueduct for example, plenty of water in the north, but people like the weather in the desert(south), so all you have to do is make a new "river" and trench for 400 miles from north to south so that people can have their cake and eat it too and create a never-ending growth of resource dependency. The problem *will* come to fruition someday, except everyday we contribute to it and help it grow. We're past the point of ignorance and are into cruelty, like if you had a dog that only birthed dead puppies and you refused to have it spayed because you didn't want to upset the dog by taking it to the vet.

Look to the Native Americans for the principles on how to coexist with what the planet has to offer. Obviously not saying we all need to go full hippie loin cloth, just the principles of resource management. You don't live in a place that doesn't support your life and then expect everyone to fix it for you. That's the cliche American narcissism and it's a cancer. I'd rather cut the cancer out, even though it hurts, instead of feed it, because feeding it leads to death 100% of the time.
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But that is taking 'clean' water though right? Yeah man, our water is too precious and we need to stop messing around with that.

I am talking about basically cycling in ocean water, cleaning out the pollution/salt and hauling that over huge distances, basically use the ocean to get us water, one big ass aqueduct system from the ocean water, as we clean our mess.

We are not going to use more water than the ocean man, I am not talking about wasting it, just tapping it.

And use it to grow giant beautiful plants. And learn to live clean.

mooray said:
Look to the Native Americans for the principles on how to coexist with what the planet has to offer. Obviously not saying we all need to go full hippie loin cloth, just the principles of resource management. You don't live in a place that doesn't support your life and then expect everyone to fix it for you. That's the cliche American narcissism and it's a cancer. I'd rather cut the cancer out, even though it hurts, instead of feed it, because feeding it leads to death 100% of the time.
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Sure, life was great, if you take out any realization that they were still human beings and we are fucking viscous creatures throughout all known history.

I don't care which 'race' ended up figuring out mass production, but as soon as they did they would have gobbled up the planet too.

mooray said:
You don't live in a place that doesn't support your life and then expect everyone to fix it for you.
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mooray said:
That's the cliche American narcissism and it's a cancer. I'd rather cut the cancer out, even though it hurts, instead of feed it, because feeding it leads to death 100% of the time.
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mooray said:
That's the cliche American narcissism and it's a cancer. I'd rather cut the cancer out, even though it hurts,
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What are the cancer in this one Americans? If so I disagree. I would rather figure out how to do things better and not run our nation at 33% efficiency like the Republican party would keep us at.

We can figure this out, we just need to get rid of the Wealthy Melanin-lite Heterosexual Human Male Only agenda and get everyone a chance to do the work that we need done as a country/species.

mooray said:
instead of feed it, because feeding it leads to death 100% of the time.
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M

mooray

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
But that is taking 'clean' water though right? Yeah man, our water is too precious and we need to stop messing around with that.

I am talking about basically cycling in ocean water, cleaning out the pollution/salt and hauling that over huge distances, basically use the ocean to get us water, one big ass aqueduct system from the ocean water, as we clean our mess.

We are not going to use more water than the ocean man, I am not talking about wasting it, just tapping it.

And use it to grow giant beautiful plants. And learn to live clean.

Sure, life was great, if you take out any realization that they were still human beings and we are fucking viscous creatures throughout all known history.

I don't care which 'race' ended up figuring out mass production, but as soon as they did they would have gobbled up the planet too.
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Think of it this way; how is our population growth going? Is it going well? Are we living symbiotically? We've reached a sustainable balance of consumption and waste and are ready to take the next step of a well planned growth cycle? OR....are we like a fucking out of control freight train leaving a trail of shit everywhere we go? Because if it's the latter, I don't support it. Not to imply that my support is needed. People will always vote for the now with no regard for tomorrow. Kick the can down the road, responsibility is for pussies, think of the children, thoughts and prayers, etc. etc.

hanimmal said:
What are the cancer in this one Americans? If so I disagree. I would rather figure out how to do things better and not run our nation at 33% efficiency like the Republican party would keep us at.

We can figure this out, we just need to get rid of the Wealthy Melanin-lite Heterosexual Human Male Only agenda and get everyone a chance to do the work that we need done as a country/species.
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Are you sure you disagree? Because what you would rather do, has no bearing on whether or not we have cancerous behaviors, it just sounds like you want to gloss over our behavior, but how can we do anything right if we hide from what we do wrong? This area of accountability is important, because it changes the focus. If we're doing nothing wrong, then the focus clearly shifts to "how can we get more water", but if we're doing something wrong, then the focus goes to "maybe we shouldn't be subsidizing water resources so that farmers can grow water intensive nuts in the desert and sell them to China".
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
mooray said:
Think of it this way;
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mooray said:
how is our population growth going?
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I am not sure if we can accurately say prior to 1960 since we were still mostly geocoding our way across the nation.


mooray said:
Is it going well?
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Seems like it, middle class people have fewer kids and seem to really stabilize the population growth, which offsets the advancements in everyone dying young due to shit medical understanding.

mooray said:
Are we living symbiotically?
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Um no, that is why I was saying what I was. We need to figure out how to live symbiotically. Right now we are not. Hoping for a human extinction is not really a option outside of religious cults generally.

mooray said:
We've reached a sustainable balance of consumption and waste and are ready to take the next step of a well planned growth cycle?
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Have we even figured out how to know that well enough to say one way or another?

mooray said:
OR....are we like a fucking out of control freight train leaving a trail of shit everywhere we go?
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Yes, again which is why we need to figure out how to not be and execute a plan to do that as a society/global species.

mooray said:
Because if it's the latter, I don't support it.
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We are on the same side man, no worries.


mooray said:
Not to imply that my support is needed.
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No nor is mine.

mooray said:
People will always vote for the now with no regard for tomorrow. Kick the can down the road, responsibility is for pussies, think of the children, thoughts and prayers, etc. etc.
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We will figure it out or we won't. But my money is on us figuring it out like we have done through every other global catastrophe we have lived through as a species.

Too many people see it, and it is not going to go away. It is just we have a very small demographic that would rather be dictators of a shit pile and live in comfort than give up their power and let people who are the best to get the work to tackling the problems that we have created over the last couple hundred years.

mooray said:
Are you sure you disagree?
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Yeah with us being 'cancers', I disagree. That kind of stupid shit might get you a bunch of nodding heads from time to time, but no, human beings are not a cancer as far as I am aware.

Again though, I am not sure that we know enough to know if cancer can think or change, but even then, no I would say there is a clear difference between cancer and us.


mooray said:
Because what you would rather do, has no bearing on whether or not we have cancerous behaviors, it just sounds like you want to gloss over our behavior, but how can we do anything right if we hide from what we do wrong?
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This is the kind of stupid shit that makes me think about the douche apples guy on Good Will Hunting.

You can pretend like I said anything about 'gloss over', but I did not.

There is no hiding from the devastation we have caused our land. It breaks my heart to know that I will never see a forest covering the entirety of Michigan like back in the day.

Im saying we need to do the work to repair our planet. We need to make it right and the only way to start is the same philosophy as planting a fruit tree. The best time would have been decade(s) ago, the next best option is to plant one today.



mooray said:
This area of accountability is important, because it changes the focus. If we're doing nothing wrong, then the focus clearly shifts to "how can we get more water", but if we're doing something wrong, then the focus goes to "maybe we shouldn't be subsidizing water resources so that farmers can grow water intensive nuts in the desert and sell them to China".
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Again you are skipping over the entire point of my saying to pump in ocean water and use that instead of the natural water from other areas. We need to start putting back what we took out. Water especially.

We have the ability and brainpower to not use it to get us out of this.
 
M

mooray

Well-Known Member
Resolution is important. Everything looks tame when zoomed in, but...



I'm not *trying* to skip over it, maybe I am, but my point is that we've manipulated the natural flow of water for a long time and it's never enough. I just don't think the answer is to do an even bigger version of the things that aren't working.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
mooray said:
Resolution is important. Everything looks tame when zoomed in, but...

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The chart is fun and all, but I call bullshit on them having a non-white washed understanding of the population in the America's prior to 1960's due to massive genocide.

mooray said:
I'm not *trying* to skip over it, maybe I am, but my point is that we've manipulated the natural flow of water for a long time and it's never enough. I just don't think the answer is to do an even bigger version of the things that aren't working.
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I dont agree. If we created the Grand Canyon I might agree. Water flows on our planet. We have truly been small minded about our use of it, and extremely dirty, but that is what I think we can most easily invent our way into a sustainable clean method of using it safely.

Also I would say it is the cutting down of the trees and burning them that fucked us up more than anything else.
 
M

mooray

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
The chart is fun and all, but I call bullshit on them having a non-white washed understanding of the population in the America's prior to 1960's due to massive genocide.
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I suppose we'll have to disagree that populations grow exponentially. Cheers.

hanimmal said:
I dont agree. If we created the Grand Canyon I might agree. Water flows on our planet. We have truly been small minded about our use of it, and extremely dirty, but that is what I think we can most easily invent our way into a sustainable clean method of using it safely./QUOTE]

I think history says the last part of your statement is technically possible and statistically improbable.

QUOTE="hanimmal, post: 16387080, member: 152164"]Also I would say it is the cutting down of the trees and burning them that fucked us up more than anything else.
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Tremendously impactful for sure, but also supports the notion that whenever we need a natural resource, we're not that great at it.

Here's the one nice thing about the way I think we should live(super hippie local community style), is that it's guaranteed to be much better for the planet than we are right now, whereas any nationwide infrastructure manipulation is a complete roll of the dice as to how bad the side effects will be. Not whether or not there will be side effects, because that's also guaranteed, rather how bad they will be. All so that we don't have to be interrupted, because heaven forbid we don't have golf courses and nut farms in places that are already literally a net deficit with precipitation.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
mooray said:
I suppose we'll have to disagree that populations grow exponentially. Cheers.
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Its all good. I got pretty much the same response about how many people supposedly go to heaven as a kid though.

And 'exponential growth' is bullshit btw. Technically any number can be a exponent and it can grow, shrink or maintain based on it. Thinking that looking at one chart like that and saying it s growing exponentially means something is not something I feel comfortable with thinking is making some kind of point.


mooray said:
I think history says the last part of your statement is technically possible and statistically improbable.
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mooray said:
Tremendously impactful for sure, but also supports the notion that whenever we need a natural resource, we haven't been that great at it
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the difference is subtle, but it is there. We just woke up to this nightmare about 50 years ago with Carter, and the Wealthy Melanin-lite Heterosexual Human Male Only agenda has been kicking and screaming ever since.

We are too close to finally being a nation that is 100% efficient that I say we don't give up while we are still operating at about 60% efficiency.
 
M

mooray

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
Its all good. I got pretty much the same response about how many people supposedly go to heaven as a kid though.

And 'exponential growth' is bullshit btw. Technically any number can be a exponent and it can grow, shrink or maintain based on it. Thinking that looking at one chart like that and saying it s growing exponentially means something is not something I feel comfortable with thinking is making some kind of point.
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Surely you know the difference between linear and exponential? Remember the ol' "start by saving one penny and doubling it everyday" thing? Linear being to add one penny everyday. I mentioned it more tongue in cheek, because it's already well known the human population has grown exponentially. Only when you really zoom in does it appear to be linear. I'm thinking beyond tomorrow and beyond the next ten years, fwiw. Just look at growth from 1800-1900 and from 1900-2000. If the increase in number of people are the same, or close to the same, then the growth is linear and I offer you my apologies.

I'm not talking about the exponential rate, btw, because I recognize that the exponential rate is slowing.

hanimmal said:
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Well now hang on a second....republicans do that to black people all the time. Just because it's technically possible to grow up to be a rockstar from generations of families held back to poor jobs/education, doesn't mean it's at all probable. I know you understand this concept just fine.

hanimmal said:
the difference is subtle, but it is there. We just woke up to this nightmare about 50 years ago with Carter, and the Wealthy Melanin-lite Heterosexual Human Male Only agenda has been kicking and screaming ever since.

We are too close to finally being a nation that is 100% efficient that I say we don't give up while we are still operating at about 60% efficiency.
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All we do is shift our pollution somewhere else to give the appearance of being better while not actually being better. For example our imports from china have been going up significantly for decades. I'm honestly kind of surprised you'd say something about finally being close to a nation that is 100% efficient, because....it's hilarious.
 
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