730nm Flower Initiator vs Blue Dream - Outdoors

and the control plant:
[video=youtube;PgakZvCfEaA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgakZvCfEaA[/video]
on day 14 of bloom, natural under the sun.

at this point, i am pretty sure that the difference in bloom speed is due to the 730nm light. i'm also beginning to think that i might have been able to get even better results if i would have put it into use a week or 2 before i actually did - and forced even earlier.

Love the research your doing, your doing a lot of tests I would love to run. I guess I should start testing some radical new hydroponic designs I've been thinking up with the lights that you have been working with. Ever looked at solar tubes to supplement the indagrows?

Are you familiar with the use of electricity, magnetism, and sound to help speed up the Plant growth? those are also areas I want to investigate.

Keep up the great research!

Megladon said:

Love the research your doing, your doing a lot of tests I would love to run. I guess I should start testing some radical new hydroponic designs I've been thinking up with the lights that you have been working with. Ever looked at solar tubes to supplement the indagrows?

Are you familiar with the use of electricity, magnetism, and sound to help speed up the Plant growth? those are also areas I want to investigate.

Keep up the great research!

Click to expand...

hey Megladon!

thanks man i figure if you aren't learning anything, you aren't doing anything... i totally endorse you getting your experiment on! get it out of your mind and into reality! nothing beats understanding things that others don't. and when they start coming around, you already have a massive head start and can help to lead the learning curve.

as for the solar tubes, do you mean http://www.solatube.com?

if so, i hadn't heard of them and just checked them out. i saw something on the Discovery channel (i kid you not) over a decade ago about how the Japanese have something similar that uses fiber optics to pipe the light indoors; and solar collectors that track the sun...

as for indoor growing, i suppose that a room could be set up with a bunch of those tubes, or a shed/barn/warehouse be fitted with them... the thing is that you would think (well, i do) that if these were viable for indoor gardening, that they would already be on that, as it's the greenest retrofit option i've seen. or maybe i missed it if they are, it's was a brief peek as i'm at work now... also, since they don't want their custies to get sunburns indoors, there's prolly some uv filtering on them, and cannabis likes uv.

as for fringe type plant stuff, i have a pdf at home that i found a while back that really takes the mind outside of the traditional gardening box. some real Wilhelm Reich stuff. literally. when i get home i'll try to find it for you, if you might be interested, or at least a link to where i got it from. one thing that i recall from it was that you could take 2 sheets of metal (idr if it mattered what kind), but they wanna be size matched, and connected via a metal wire or cable, like electrically connected. so then, it goes on to say that you can place one sheet of metal in the sun, like a collector, and place the other in a sealed, dark indoor environment, and it will allow plants to grow as normal, but in the dark. ... :shrug: idk about all that, but it's fringe indeed...

gotta get running for now... i'll check back later this afternoon

take care.

I really wish there was a grow mag for cutting edge grow gear reviews and newest techniques. Here's something I would like to know, can this 730 light speed up revegging a flowered plant.

Side question, I just cut a Tahoe og that Hermes and self seeded, I am trying to reveg to try and flower again. If the plant is flowered again, will the fact that it Hermed be an issue in the 2nd flowering? This is my first reveg so I'm not heart broken if I have to start from seed.

Even though the solar tub blocks uv, its real sunlight. Mix the indagrow with solar tubes and you should get more bud with no more heat or power draw... On my list of things to test out. I think they are 20k lumens but not sure in par. I think they run about $600 a tube. If you had some south facing windows and sola tubes with 420 light you would have crazy gr/w

Megladon said:

I really wish there was a grow mag for cutting edge grow gear reviews and newest techniques. Here's something I would like to know, can this 730 light speed up revegging a flowered plant.

Side question, I just cut a Tahoe og that Hermes and self seeded, I am trying to reveg to try and flower again. If the plant is flowered again, will the fact that it Hermed be an issue in the 2nd flowering? This is my first reveg so I'm not heart broken if I have to start from seed.

Even though the solar tub blocks uv, its real sunlight. Mix the indagrow with solar tubes and you should get more bud with no more heat or power draw... On my list of things to test out. I think they are 20k lumens but not sure in par. I think they run about $600 a tube. If you had some south facing windows and sola tubes with 420 light you would have crazy gr/w

Click to expand...

Interesting conversation you and Splifferous are having. The Far Red, Flower Initiator, would not be helpful for re-vegging.

I would suggest a couple days incomplete darkness, then start running Blue or MH lights for 18 hours per, make sure to give a bit of Nitrogen rich nutrients and perhaps a bit of B vitamins.

Check out this video for unique hybrid combination, Inda-Gro, the Flower Initiator and a Red Booster LED. I believe Splifferous can provide to all this high tech stuff.

Megladon said:

I really wish there was a grow mag for cutting edge grow gear reviews and newest techniques. Here's something I would like to know, can this 730 light speed up revegging a flowered plant.

Side question, I just cut a Tahoe og that Hermes and self seeded, I am trying to reveg to try and flower again. If the plant is flowered again, will the fact that it Hermed be an issue in the 2nd flowering? This is my first reveg so I'm not heart broken if I have to start from seed.

Even though the solar tub blocks uv, its real sunlight. Mix the indagrow with solar tubes and you should get more bud with no more heat or power draw... On my list of things to test out. I think they are 20k lumens but not sure in par. I think they run about $600 a tube. If you had some south facing windows and sola tubes with 420 light you would have crazy gr/w

Click to expand...

for re-veg, i heard that Dutch Master's Reverse product works very well. additionally, it is recommended for plants that like to self pollinate as it suppresses male flowers. i have a L bottle of it waiting for an opportunity to use it... i got it when i noticed my AO popping a nanner or 2, but then she stopped and then got chopped... i'm thinking about trying a re-veg of an outdoor girl, and so will be able to put it to use soon - potentially... the only down side of this stuff is that is not added to water to dilute it... you add their surfactant and spray... very expensive as foliar treatments go. but... it might work for your Tahoe.

on those tubes... i did daydream a little about having a room with the ceiling full of those... would be awesome but not for a renter also, i would think that their effectiveness would relate directly to how sunny the region is where they are installed. most likely a better option in SoCal than here in the PNW...

on gpw, some strains that i am running now respond very well to the 420s. i had an Oregon Licorice in a previous run pull 2 gpw under a 420 on a light mover.

Hiya Spliff! Nice work on the initiator. It seems like this project definitely warrants further investigation and I'll be interested in what develops inside one of your tents when applied to a control plant. Getting very interesting!


As to the use of skylights or SolaTubes for plant growth; the problem for the indoor gardener is that they do provide a nice supplement for visual light and you would instinctively think that would be of some benefit to plant growth but unfortunately the intensities at the canopy tend to hover in the 50 foot candle (visual) range or <20 uMoles (PAR) and the plastic is UV stabilized which of course cuts all spectrum's below 380nm from reaching the plants which an Inda-Gro emits to enhance trichome production. So you're correct in that many have tried but the contribution is so miniscule that the cost is not worthy of the return in those places that they may even be installed without adapters and fittings that bend the tube and light to the ceiling refractor as well as relative sun intensity per region and time of year.

my .02

hey all! sorry the lag on updates, but rest assured, the girls have been going at it even without the camera pointed at them

here's the plant under the 730nm:


and here's the control plant, originally cloned from the big lady:


to the eye, the difference in development is astounding. i can't wait to see what they'll look like when they're done.

once the big lady is done, i have plans to bring the FI indoors and potentially run it in a smaller tent with one of the 420s so i can get an indoor side by side done. so far, tho, i'm sold on what this does for outdoors.

well... tonight is the night that takes us closest to 12/12 in the Portland area and nights are just gonna be shorter from here on. i was thinking that with the 2 hours of 730 she's gonna be seeing 14 hour nights and will probably decide to race to ripen when i'd rather her bulk a bit more...

so i'm gonna bring it down today.

also, with it being the 2nd night cycle for the Qrazy Train and Cannatonic in the tent, i think the timing is close enough if i wanted to go on and test it in the tent from tonight on. the Blueberry and White Rhino in the tent are already crowned so i'll get to see a reaction from more mature plants too. if i go forward with this, i figure i'll only have it on for 10 minutes or so when the 420s go off.

PetFlora said:

Indoors you may need to combine it with similar watts of 660. Seems they work synergisticly, but one without the other, not so much

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hey Pet.

i don't know where you are getting that information (perhaps you can link a citation?), but what you describe doing, in my opinion, would either confuse the plant, or at least, the plant wouldn't have the intended response to the 730 stimulation. let me explain.

From Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytochrome)

Phytochromes are characterised by a red/far-red photochromicity. Photochromic pigments change their "colour" (spectral absorbance properties) upon light absorption. In the case of phytochrome the ground state is Pr, the r indicating that it absorbs red light particularly strongly. The absorbance maximum is a sharp peak 650–670 nm, so concentrated phytochrome solutions look turquoise-blue to the human eye. But once a red photon has been absorbed, the pigment undergoes a rapid conformational change to form the Pfr state. Here fr indicates that now not red but far-red (also called "near infra-red"; 705–740 nm) is preferentially absorbed. This shift in absorbance is apparent to the human eye as a slightly more greenish colour. When Pfr absorbs far-red light it is converted back to Pr. Hence, red light makes Pfr, far-red light makes Pr. In plants at least Pfr is the physiologically active or "signalling" state.

in short, it sounds to me like you are suggesting to stimulate both the pr (with the 660nm) and pfr (with the 730nm) states at the same time. normal light exposure does this, and so the plants accept that both 660 and 730 at the same time = day, and 730 w/o 660 indicates a shift to night, as 660 falls off before 730 does (under the sun).

This thread is great! Are you still going to do an indoor side by side? I would like to see how you implement it, maybe a 12-12 comparison wouldn't yield as well to the 730nm side because it would be rushing to finish. Anyway I was always wondering whether or not this; would effect total yield potential in a typical indoor 12-12 situation, simply alter the photo-period trigger at a higher number of hours and effect yields relative to kw/day increase, or if it could be used to safely speed up the flowering process. Hope all is going well.

Best of luck in your growing endeavors,
ILovePlants

Splifferous said:

hey Pet.

i don't know where you are getting that information (perhaps you can link a citation?), but what you describe doing, in my opinion, would either confuse the plant, or at least, the plant wouldn't have the intended response to the 730 stimulation. let me explain.

From Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytochrome)

Phytochromes are characterised by a red/far-red photochromicity. Photochromic pigments change their "colour" (spectral absorbance properties) upon light absorption. In the case of phytochrome the ground state is Pr, the r indicating that it absorbs red light particularly strongly. The absorbance maximum is a sharp peak 650&#8211;670 nm, so concentrated phytochrome solutions look turquoise-blue to the human eye. But once a red photon has been absorbed, the pigment undergoes a rapid conformational change to form the Pfr state. Here fr indicates that now not red but far-red (also called "near infra-red"; 705&#8211;740 nm) is preferentially absorbed. This shift in absorbance is apparent to the human eye as a slightly more greenish colour. When Pfr absorbs far-red light it is converted back to Pr. Hence, red light makes Pfr, far-red light makes Pr. In plants at least Pfr is the physiologically active or "signalling" state.

in short, it sounds to me like you are suggesting to stimulate both the pr (with the 660nm) and pfr (with the 730nm) states at the same time. normal light exposure does this, and so the plants accept that both 660 and 730 at the same time = day, and 730 w/o 660 indicates a shift to night, as 660 falls off before 730 does (under the sun).

Click to expand...

Yes,He has confused some things...
I'm afraid it's my fault...
I'm supporting that if reds of 650-680 nm deep reds are used in large numbers ,then they should be "balanced out "
with some 700-750 nm FR lighting ..
( so to maintain a "healthy "phytochrome photostationary state close to 0.7-0.8,at least for flowering ..For vegetative stage it can be higher from 0.8 = 80% of total PHY is in Pfr form )

When investigating phytochrome responses, it would at first appear that an investigator should be very concerned about the relative balance between the &#955; = 660 nm and &#955; = 730 nm in the light source. Although important in selecting a lamp source, in practice, the most relevant factor in photobiology is the fraction of phytochrome present in the active (P[SUB]fr[/SUB]) form with respect to the total phytochrome (P[SUB]tot[/SUB] = P[SUB]fr[/SUB] + P[SUB]r[/SUB]) at photoequilibrium.

Although P[SUB]r[/SUB] has &#955;[SUB]max[/SUB] = 660 nm and P[SUB]fr[/SUB] at &#955;[SUB]max[/SUB] = 730 nm, there is significant overlap in the relative spectral absorbance of P[SUB]r[/SUB] and P[SUB]fr[/SUB] (Fig. 2). As a result of the relative differences in absorption and the subsequent conformational change between P[SUB]r[/SUB] and P[SUB]fr[/SUB], both forms are present in the plant. The relative proportion of active form (P[SUB]fr[/SUB]) to the total (P[SUB]tot[/SUB]) is considered the phytochrome photostationary state (&#934;). It is this relative proportion of P[SUB]fr[/SUB] to P[SUB]tot[/SUB] that regulates a given photomorphogenic response. Because the absorption spectrum of each form is known, it is possible to estimate &#934; if the spectral distribution of a light source is also known

Click to expand...

Typical values of &#934; under ambient solar conditions are &#934; = 0.6 for full sun and &#934; = 0.1 for dense shade under a full canopy (Salisbury and Ross, 1992; Nagy and Schaefer, 2002), although these values vary according to canopy type and density (Vandenbussche et al., 2005). The range of values from electric light sources vary from &#934; = 0.1 from a far red rich light source to &#934; = 0.89 from a source with high red spectrum (Sager and McFarlane, 1997).

The values for estimating &#934; derived from isolated phytochrome (Sager and McFarlane, 1997; Sager et al., 1988) are useful guides to determining the effect of any light source on the phytochrome response. When using narrow-band LEDs, the &#934; can be approximated based on the &#955;[SUB]max[/SUB] of the LED. Table 2 shows the estimate of &#934; for discrete narrow-band LEDs with &#955;[SUB]max[/SUB] from 300 to 800 nm. Table 2 also includes relative quantum efficiency (RQE) for photosynthesis (McCree, 1972) to allow the photosynthetic efficiency of a given wavelength to be evaluated as well. These well-defined parameters allow the spectra to be optimized for both photosynthesis and photomorphogenesis.

Click to expand...

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/44/2/231.full


Anyway...
Great work there...

Although you are messin' with really a complicated issue...
" circadian rythm oscillator entrainment "

There are ,also ,the "twilight effects " there ....

Morning And Noon Transition Duration vs Geo.Latitude .
Pic.4 ..


As Earth rotates from West to East ,at a certain point, at afternoon before sunsetting ( Pnoon -Pic.4 ) ,due to distance from Sun ,light power drops to a level that Photosynthesis does not occur /neither respiration.
This is called Photosynthetic Light Compensation Point [ LCP ].
As light gets lower in power ,respiration starts.From LCP until full sunset (darkness,thus full respiration rates ),
there is a period that a plant,gets irradiated with more of Far red irradiation[FRL ] than red light [RL].
Usually, combined with moderate to high Temps(season depending ) and Moderate to Low soil/air R.humidity.
Under these conditions and depending the duration of, "Twilight " can affect ,severely,plant growth.

For two sites on same longitude ,but at different latitudes ,"Twilight stages "
( at morning ,during sunrising -at afternoon,during sunsetting),have different durations.

At Pic.4 ,watching Earth rotation from Above ( date : Vernal or Autumnal Equinox date, 21-22 March or 22-23 September,respectively ),we
can notice our familiar,by now ,grow sites. (Heart at 45° N G.Lat.,spade at 15° N G.Lat..)

At 16:00 afternoon (yellow signs/line ),the site of 45° N G.Lat.(heart ) , has reached to the Pnoon Point,where PSs (photosynthesis) stops.Distance from Sun is such,that light power can not support PSs,anymore.More FRL wls are reaching to the plant's canopy ,than RL wls.This "twilight" will last for two hours(aka for 30° rotation time ) more ,until sunset ,at 18:00. (red signs/line). (values are random )

For the site of 15° N G.Lat.(spade),at 16:00 ,plants continue to photosynthesise.
Compensation Point has not been reached yet.
At 17:00 ,site reaches Pnoon Power level (or distance from Sun ) where where PSs stops.(cyan sign/line)
This "twilight" will last for one hour (aka for 15° rotation time) more ,until sunset ,at 18:00. (red signs/line).

This happens due to 15° N G.Lat.(spade) has bigger radius than 45° N G.Lat.(heart ),thus it moves faster.
Add up the Geographical Latitude Angle induced Quantity/Quality differences(i.e. atmosphere's filtration )
and the phenomenon of "twilight" ,gets more attenuated .
Earth's Seasonal Declination Angle,varies also "Twilight " duration,according to Season(date )and Geo.Latitude of site.

Click to expand...

Keep up the great experiments there....

Big bravo !

IlovePlants said:

This thread is great! Are you still going to do an indoor side by side? I would like to see how you implement it, maybe a 12-12 comparison wouldn't yield as well to the 730nm side because it would be rushing to finish. Anyway I was always wondering whether or not this; would effect total yield potential in a typical indoor 12-12 situation, simply alter the photo-period trigger at a higher number of hours and effect yields relative to kw/day increase, or if it could be used to safely speed up the flowering process. Hope all is going well.

Best of luck in your growing endeavors,
ILovePlants

Click to expand...

730 nm when used solely,can do a lot of things to a short day flowering plant...

Can make reproductive state rates increase while in transition period from vegetative stage...
But it can shorten drastically the overall flowering period if in excess...
So ,probably maintaining SD plants under a longer light period (i.e. 14/10 ) while irradiating them along and after the light period with excess 730 nm ,can
induce and sustain a normal flowering (or a massive one ,maybe... ) ...
Or have negative effects (Heavy but rapid and short overall duration of flowering ,thus reduced yields ...)
Or way elongated( "stretched out " ) plants as a shade avoidance response ....

Anyway...
Far too delicate and complicated matter ...
As it involves to PHY types and three different responces to each light ( red and far red ..)

The two responses labeled VLF (Very Low Fluence) and LF (Low Fluence) are described as "induction" responses to indicate that they are induced by a short pulse of light, following which plants/seeds can be returned to darkness. Common induction responses include seed germination seedling stem elongation. The VLF response can be activated by short pulses of very weak light. A rough calculation was made that a VLF response can be induced by 1-3 firefly flashes.

The LF response is the classical low fluence red/far-red reversible phenomenon. At first it might seem a surprise that the VLF response does not show the photoreversibility normally associated with phytochrome mediated responses, but this can be understood once it is appreciated just how few molecules of Pfr are needed, so few that even far-red light produces enough.( due to the overlapping absorption spectra of Pf & Pfr ). Mutational investigations on seedlings deficient in phytochromes clearly implicate PHYA as the regulator. Mutational studies have implicated PHYB as the prime regulator of LF response.

The high irradiance reaction (HIR) requires continuous or prolonged irradiation with high-intensity light. The response in this case is proportional to the irradiance received by the plant; again, photoreversibility is absent. Typical HIR responses are anthocyanin synthesis or inhibition of hypocotyl elongation. Although phytochromes clearly are involved in these responses, evidence indicates that other photoreceptors that absorb UV or blue light contribute to this control.

Click to expand...

stardustsailor said:

730 nm when used solely,can do a lot of things to a short day flowering plant...

Click to expand...

Hey SDS, here's a good link for you. You could learn a lot from it I bet;

http//www.umassmed.edu/CaseStudies/670nm-730nm

Enjoy

FranJan said:

Hey SDS, here's a good link for you. You could learn a lot from it I bet;

http//www.umassmed.edu/CaseStudies/670nm-730nm

Enjoy

Click to expand...

Wow ..A clever-wise guy here....
Any other contribution ,other than that ?
It didn't help so much ....
We all knew that info ,anyway....

FranJan said:

Hey SDS, here's a good link for you. You could learn a lot from it I bet;

http//www.umassmed.edu/CaseStudies/670nm-730nm

Enjoy

Click to expand...

That was f***king hilarious ahahah!
Sorry but given where I am and the exact time I clicked the link!
Given also the state of RIU and this war of wavelengths with too much antagonism and too much assumptions!

Take care everybody, it's nice to be alive ahah eh eh

FranJan said:

Hey SDS, here's a good link for you. You could learn a lot from it I bet;

http//www.umassmed.edu/CaseStudies/670nm-730nm

Enjoy

Click to expand...

Looks like Franjan is back...........lol.............don't take it personally SDS/ this is just the beginning

PSUAGRO. said:

Looks like Franjan is back...........lol.............don't take it personally SDS/ this is just the beginning

Click to expand...

Yeap..I'll keep that in mind...
Afterall I'm a stardust sailor...
I possess the knowledge to deal with all sorts of ....Wormholes...