Fastest turn around with two tents

KonopCh

Well-Known Member
As there are bunch of noobs in other sections on this forum, I will open new thread here, where I find more grown up people.

So, I have two tents, one 2x2 and one 4x4. Which is the fastest turn around which will give me the most yield with maximum 4 or 5 flowering plants? Let's take numbers in 365 days or 1 year and typical flowering 55-60 days.

Numbers please!! :bigjoint:

- flower 4 plants 8 weeks and take 2 clones which veg for 8 weeks (Tent too small? Yield too small when flowering two clones in 4x4?)
- flower 2 plants 8 weeks and take 2 clones which veg for 27-30 days (So harvest every 27-30 days 2 plants)
- other option?

And before you trying to suggest me better light, bigger tent, best nutes etc... please don't. My question is clear.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
^ You could do this.

But in my experience, option 2 will give better yields, as with a staggered grow you get better canopy penetration.

However, I'm not sure about your numbers. You want to flower two plants in the 4x4 for four weeks, then two more in the 4x4 so that you are harvesting two plants and taking two clones to replace them every four weeks.

With an average two weeks to root your clones, you would veg for six weeks in the 2x2, moving two plants to the 4x4 every four weeks.

That's how I would do it. And in fact, that's how I already do it in my 4x2 with eight plants.

Perpetual grow:
IMG_0449.JPG

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Airwalker16

Well-Known Member
Just use your smaller tent to raise clones. As you take them to the flower tent, within a week or two(before its too late) take your new clones from them and raise them again in the smaller tent. You'd harvest a full 4x4 every 2 months.
 

Airwalker16

Well-Known Member
^ You could do this.

But in my experience, option 2 will give better yields, as with a staggered grow you get better canopy penetration.

However, I'm not sure about your numbers. You want to flower two plants in the 4x4 for four weeks, then two more in the 4x4 so that you are harvesting two plants and taking two clones to replace them every four weeks.

With an average two weeks to root your clones, you would veg for six weeks in the 2x2, moving two plants to the 4x4 every four weeks.

That's how I would do it. And in fact, that's how I already do it in my 4x2 with eight plants.

Perpetual grow:
View attachment 4219620

View attachment 4219621
Damn son, you don't lollipop at all huh? What do you do with all that larf?
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
"Lollipopping" is a false economy, as you are stripping fan leaves that store starches and mobile elements and forcing the plant to use up energy transporting nutrient from smaller fan leaves that are further away to feed the flowers. You may get better light penetration and less "larf" as you put it, but at the cost of smaller overall yields. Smaller buds and sugar leaves go into butter. Sometimes I make hash oil when I'm feeling energetic
bongsmilie
 

Airwalker16

Well-Known Member
"Lollipopping" is a false economy, as you are stripping fan leaves that store starches and mobile elements and forcing the plant to use up energy transporting nutrient from smaller fan leaves that are further away to feed the flowers. You may get better light penetration and less "larf" as you put it, but at the cost of smaller overall yields. Smaller buds and sugar leaves go into butter. Sometimes I make hash oil when I'm feeling energetic
bongsmilie
I don't know about all that... If it's done all in veg and given a few days/week to recover, I think its very beneficial to not have the plant stressing to form buds where there's just not adequately enough light to do so. I had an entire run where only really the LOWER light starved larf was seeded from stress. The tops were not though. So that's just my personal opinion.
 

whitebb2727

Well-Known Member
You could stage them if you could have a few more plants. Don't flower them all at once. Put a couple in flower each week and take a few clones. Keep the best two.

You will have some in various stages of veg and flower.

A mini perpetual.

I ran one with a 2x2 and a 2x4. It produced way more than myself, family and friends needed.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
I don't know about all that... If it's done all in veg and given a few days/week to recover, I think its very beneficial to not have the plant stressing to form buds where there's just not adequately enough light to do so. I had an entire run where only really the LOWER light starved larf was seeded from stress. The tops were not though. So that's just my personal opinion.
Can you explain what, exact, stress caused your plants to seed? Flower and stamen expression are by-products of ethylene production and interference. Ethylene accumulates during the dark period and breaks down under light. Sounds to me like you had a light leak around your lower tent where the outlets are. Plants don't "stress" to form buds - where there is light there is photosynthesis and energy conversion. Where there is little or no light there is less. Which is why lower leaves tend to die off when light doesn't reach them
 

Humple

Well-Known Member
"Lollipopping" is a false economy, as you are stripping fan leaves that store starches and mobile elements and forcing the plant to use up energy transporting nutrient from smaller fan leaves that are further away to feed the flowers. You may get better light penetration and less "larf" as you put it, but at the cost of smaller overall yields. Smaller buds and sugar leaves go into butter. Sometimes I make hash oil when I'm feeling energetic
bongsmilie
One of the oldest debates on the scene, and I doubt it will cease to be so for years to come. I'm an amateur in every respect when it comes to growing, but based solely on a layman's logic (which may or may not have any merit), I lean toward your philosophy. That said, in my own space/environment, I think some light stripping could help to forestall some mold issues I've had? Expect it's less of a concern in a well-controlled environment, but that's a challenge for me, as I grow in an unfinished basement.
 

Achillesactual

Well-Known Member
One of the oldest debates on the scene, and I doubt it will cease to be so for years to come. I'm an amateur in every respect when it comes to growing, but based solely on a layman's logic (which may or may not have any merit), I lean toward your philosophy. That said, in my own space/environment, I think some light stripping could help to forestall some mold issues I've had? Expect it's less of a concern in a well-controlled environment, but that's a challenge for me, as I grow in an unfinished basement.
Certainly would help you keep overall levels of transpiration down and as such keep humidity down.
Be aware that this is anecdotal but I have heard that allegedly Powdery Mildew can stay dormant in a plant, so for instance. If you have a mother that has ever been exposed to PM any clone you take off of it will have a predisposition to PM. Although I can't substantiate that claim, but it might be something to consider and someone more knowledgeable hopefully can chime in on it.
 

KonopCh

Well-Known Member
^ You could do this.

But in my experience, option 2 will give better yields, as with a staggered grow you get better canopy penetration.

However, I'm not sure about your numbers. You want to flower two plants in the 4x4 for four weeks, then two more in the 4x4 so that you are harvesting two plants and taking two clones to replace them every four weeks.

With an average two weeks to root your clones, you would veg for six weeks in the 2x2, moving two plants to the 4x4 every four weeks.

That's how I would do it. And in fact, that's how I already do it in my 4x2 with eight plants.
Bravo!! First helpful comment and first user who can read, thank you!

Talking about 2 clones, how long can be vegged to get full 2x2 tent? 4 weeks? That's actually 6 weeks from cut? And how long does it take it to get 4x4 full?
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
One of the oldest debates on the scene, and I doubt it will cease to be so for years to come. I'm an amateur in every respect when it comes to growing, but based solely on a layman's logic (which may or may not have any merit), I lean toward your philosophy. That said, in my own space/environment, I think some light stripping could help to forestall some mold issues I've had? Expect it's less of a concern in a well-controlled environment, but that's a challenge for me, as I grow in an unfinished basement.
I've tried both over the years, and what I've noticed is when you strip all the fan leaves away, you remove a lot of the plant's stored energy (in the form of starches, as well as mobile nutrients), as well as all the chloroplasts in those leaves that conduct photosynthesis.

You think of all the energy the plant has used to build those structures, as well as all the energy that is stored in them, and you have just taken that away.

After all, what is the first thing you notice about a stripped plant after you remove all it's fan leaves? The plant straight away starts to rebuild, replacing fan leaves, enlarging those that were not removed, and diverting energy into this process that could be used to build root structures, main stems, branches and new growth. You have basically stunted the plant.

Now let's have a think about the reasons for lollipopping (stripping fan leaves). It is to let light into the undergrowth, correct? Good. But after you remove all those leaves to allow light into the undergrowth, what part of the plant is it that actually uses that light? If you said "all the leaves you have just removed", you would be mostly correct.

Cannabis flowers do contain chloroplasts, so they do photosynthesise. But they are not as efficient at converting electro-magnetic energy (light) into stored energy (starches) and transportable energy (sugars) as leaves.

So that's what I mean by a "false economy" - you have allowed more light in, but you have removed the very structures that most efficiently use that light.

Similar to roots, leaves capture, store and supply energy to other parts of the plant. The less distance travelled, the more efficiently energy and nutrient can be transported. The more light, the more energy can be converted. The larger the leaf volume, the more energy can be stored.

Plants are not stupid. If there is no light, they have two choices. Just like with growing roots, they can "search" (expend energy stretching for light, like a root stretches for nutrient and moisture), or they can let that part of the plant expend its remaining energy and die, while the plant concentrates on transporting nutrient to and from other parts of the plant that have adequate light.

The plant does whatever is more efficient.

Where there is light, there is growth. Where there is no light, growth will stretch and/or eventually die off.

So what does this long post mean? It means there are more efficient ways to provide light to plants than removing all their stored energy and chloroplasts.

If you "lollipop" a plant and then put it straight into flower, you will temporarily stunt it and the plant will use valuable energy to grow new fan leaves and restore lost starches and mobile nutrients instead of expanding its structure to increase flowering sites.

If you "lollipop" a plant and then allow it to grow back in veg before putting it into flower, what have you achieved? Nothing. You've just temporarily stunted the plant and you still end up with lots of leaves anyway!

OK, so I know "lollipping" can also mean removing underdeveloped branches and growth at the bottom of the plant to turn it into a "lollipop" where most of the branches are an even height to maximise the canopy. This would be preferable, and you can also remove fan leaves at branch junctions to "stunt" (or rather slow) individual branches to allow other branches to catch up. This usually means removing some of the top fan leaves on newer branches that are higher to allow lower branches to stretch and catch up.

In terms of light and plant efficiency, an even-height canopy makes the best use of a concentration of light at that point. Filling in that canopy is the most important thing. Having enough leaf and root mass to support growth is also important. You can remove leaves and allow light to penetrate, but that light will be weaker than the light above at canopy height.

So is it better to allow weaker light to penetrate further into a canopy that has lots of holes it it (multiple layers of bud sites at different heights), or to fill in the canopy to maximise the best concentration of light at a certain height by having an even layer or "carpet" of buds?

In my opinion, it is the latter.

Many years ago, when I started growing with vertical HPS lights, there was always a debate about turning the plants on a regular basis so that the "dark" side of the plant could get more light. I tried both ways and came to the conclusion that there was no need to turn plants - because the plant would simply grow on the light side and divert all its energy into areas where there was most light. Vertical growing is like turning your canopy sideways.

This is the result. You will see that the canopies of these plants are not very thick at all! The most important thing is that all the buds are near the light and that there are no gaps (there was a gap created in the photo below to show the position of the light - otherwise it was completely surrounded by plants).

Think of your horizontal canopy like this vertical canop. And I did not strip fan leaves from any of these plants!
HazeHarvestSideCloser.jpg

CatpissHaze.jpg

SchnaCal.jpg
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Bravo!! First helpful comment and first user who can read, thank you!

Talking about 2 clones, how long can be vegged to get full 2x2 tent? 4 weeks? That's actually 6 weeks from cut? And how long does it take it to get 4x4 full?
Depends on strain, light and growth. Even with eight weeks (two weeks to clone, six weeks to veg) you may not fill a 2'x2' with 2 plants. But you don't want to do that anyway.

You will start with two clones in your 2x2. After four weeks, you will add another two clones. So you will have four clones at all times. Every four weeks, you will replace two clones. Every four weeks, you will add two clones to your 4x4 flowering tent. And every four weeks after that you will harvest two flowering plants and replace them with new clones from your veg tent.

BUT, 4x4 is quite a large area for only four plants. So what to do? Well, you could grow strains that flower longer than 8 weeks.

With a 10-week strain, you would be replacing clones every five weeks. You would also have 8 weeks to veg (minus two weeks to root the clones).

In my opinion, you need to know your plants, your space, and your grow style. You need to maximise your area to achieve the best yields. The best way to do that may be to increase plant numbers if you can. Otherwise, you will need to veg for longer and scrog your plants in flower.

As you can see, I grow 8 plants in a 4x2 and I am on the same four-week cycle. My plants have too much time in veg, so I simply trim them back and sometimes underfeed them to slow growth.

Now, if you have a very high-yielding strain, lots of good light, and you are growing in aeroponics - which produces the fastest growth - and (most importantly) you are a good grower(!), you may well be able to fill your 4x4 tent with four plants to maximise yields.

It is hard to say, in theory, without seeing how things work in reality. Even the time of year will make a difference, as plants grow faster when it is warmer. I would try the above first and see how you go. After one or two grows, you will know what to do.
 

devile

Member
You need consider the draw power and light efficiency if you want to improve yields. When I upgraded to a more powerful light, marsproII320 led 740W draw power, in tent 4x4, 46W /SF, yield increases a lot than before.
 

Johnny Lawrence

Well-Known Member
Ummm, lollipopping isn't defoliating. There are several people in this thread discussing lollipopping, but I don't think they understand what it means.
 

whytewidow

Well-Known Member
"Lollipopping" is a false economy, as you are stripping fan leaves that store starches and mobile elements and forcing the plant to use up energy transporting nutrient from smaller fan leaves that are further away to feed the flowers. You may get better light penetration and less "larf" as you put it, but at the cost of smaller overall yields. Smaller buds and sugar leaves go into butter. Sometimes I make hash oil when I'm feeling energetic
bongsmilie
I pull all bottoms. And strips on day 1 and day 21 of flower. On the same strain. And my yield went UP almost 19 grams per harvest. Same everything. So to say lollipopping and stripping doesnt work is foolish. Especially when theres ton of info backing that.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Ummm, lollipopping isn't defoliating. There are several people in this thread discussing lollipopping, but I don't think they understand what it means.
I did address both defoliating and bottom branch trimming.

I pull all bottoms. And strips on day 1 and day 21 of flower. On the same strain. And my yield went UP almost 19 grams per harvest. Same everything. So to say lollipopping and stripping doesnt work is foolish. Especially when theres ton of info backing that.
OK, 19 grams out of how many? Margin of error? Different conditions? Better grow technique?

Don't get me wrong, you can't argue with empirical evidence if all else is equal. And if you read (I don't blame you if it was TLDR), you'll note I do pull a few fan leaves off and trim lower branches. But I don't wholesale strip, and the times I've tried, I've gone backwards.

I haven't been growing horizontally that long, though. Only since I switched to LEDs. I grew vertical HPS for 15 years and never defoliated. And I averaged 1.3-1.4gpw each and every harvest for over a decade. That was 3-4lb per harvest.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
I'm not trying to be an arse, but if it works for you, then don't change it.

However, I didn't wholesale strip these and pulled 16oz of dried, trimmed bud from the left-hand side of this tent - which was under 200W LED. The LED frame on the other side lit the lower part of the plants. If you have penetration, why do you need to strip?

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