is religion merely an unproven theory, in particular the christian faith

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
it's the exclusionary clause that puts me off. makes no difference if you've led an exemplary life, done good deeds with no hope of personal gain, helped others whenever you could, made the world a better place, if you die without accepting jesus christ as your personal savior, you're going to hell. that hardly seems fair to me.
 

alltatup

Active Member
A god shouldn't have to cut deals with humans! What kind of god is that? Sounds more like a mafia boss. Not to mention all the millions of human beings who were born before JC, or born in Africa, Asia, etc.: "Sorry: they all have to go to hell." This is not a god that I'd want anything to do with.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
you guys are gonna suck a fat one when you die and it turns out there is a god lol. do you know how unlikely it would be that this is all random? its pretty obvious to see that there is a design of sorts. a master creator if you will. this is a pretty cool article. doesnt prove theres a god but its interesting

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/01/20/can-science-prove-the-existence-of-god/#276e5045adae

You've given us Pascal's Wager, which is bad logic and was debunked a couple of hundred years ago. The problem with Pascal's wager is that there are hundreds of Gods to choose from, and many of them do not want you to worship any God but themselves. So, the odds that you happen to have picked the right God are pretty slim, meaning you'll most likely be sucking a fat one with the rest of us.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I really don't think anyone has tried to prove it...at least in the last 100 years.
Technically religious "theories" are actually something called immunized hypotheses. This is when an explanation is constructed in such a way as to avoid any attempt at falsification. IOW the hypothesis is immune to criticism. This is done by special pleading/moving the goal posts to the point of being supernatural, or by conspiracy mongering. In the case of religion it's special pleading. Any test you perform on religion can only confirm it, never disconfirm it. For example: if we pray for something and it happens, it's because God exists. If we pray for something and it doesn't happen, it's all part of God's plan, because he exists.

https://hatepseudoscience.com/2017/06/23/immunized-hypothesis/
 

Z3r0Z3r0

Well-Known Member
I don't see anyone here saying there is not a god or gods or something else we cannot explain. Your now talking about an afterlife which is a different topic.

You are assuming there is a God ,and one you can relate to from what you believe, that there is an after life and there is a judgement day and there is a heaven and a hell. Considering the Catholic God forgives all I don't see the point of a judgement day..... If its a Jewish God it wont matter unless your Jewish anyway as they are the only chosen people.

Maybe there is a creator of some sort but when we die...we die. We carry on by enriching the soil of mother earth. Maybe..
Since when is catholic god and jewish diferent? Seems inspid to think Windows 98 is really that different to xp....
 

Lucky Luke

Well-Known Member
Since when is catholic god and jewish diferent? Seems inspid to think Windows 98 is really that different to xp....
Because in the Jewish faith the Jews are the chosen people. Only they can go to heaven.

Anyone not Jewish are good enough to be their servants except were food preparation is concerned.
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
thats one reason its hard to get a jew to talk about the after life. i've tried a couple of times, and they just won't talk about it. guess its because they don't want us all to be bummed out about having to be their slaves for eternity
 

alltatup

Active Member
Technically religious "theories" are actually something called immunized hypotheses. This is when an explanation is constructed in such a way as to avoid any attempt at falsification. IOW the hypothesis is immune to criticism. This is done by special pleading/moving the goal posts to the point of being supernatural, or by conspiracy mongering. In the case of religion it's special pleading. Any test you perform on religion can only confirm it, never disconfirm it. For example: if we pray for something and it happens, it's because God exists. If we pray for something and it doesn't happen, it's all part of God's plan, because he exists.

https://hatepseudoscience.com/2017/06/23/immunized-hypothesis/
Another part of the problem is how hard it is to get someone to at the very least examine the contradictions in what they believe. I've seen some Christians left speechless when I argued that a god who would send everyone born before Jesus to hell, as well as everyone who was never exposed to Christianity, was not a loving or just god. I concluded that each person I had this discussion with was both intellectually and emotionally incapable of dealing with the consequences of my argument, and anyone who cannot engage in rational discussion is also "immunized" by their one irrationality. So I would add that irrationality and denial are the icing on the cake of a religious immunized hypothesis.
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
Technically religious "theories" are actually something called immunized hypotheses. This is when an explanation is constructed in such a way as to avoid any attempt at falsification. IOW the hypothesis is immune to criticism. This is done by special pleading/moving the goal posts to the point of being supernatural, or by conspiracy mongering. In the case of religion it's special pleading. Any test you perform on religion can only confirm it, never disconfirm it. For example: if we pray for something and it happens, it's because God exists. If we pray for something and it doesn't happen, it's all part of God's plan, because he exists.

https://hatepseudoscience.com/2017/06/23/immunized-hypothesis/
If you brought your post(s) (heh..) to Lennox at Oxford, what would he say? Not in the sense of afa, instead, a sit down to discuss. Can you create the scenario in your mind?

Lennox talks about belief in intelligence as risen from matter, and sees it (still) as having been created.

It's up to the individual to add the -or, by extension, or by common sense.

The only thing not tainted by meaning is meaning. You cannot test religion in the same way that you cannot test science - they are. f.e. "god" isn't the scale of attributes, it is the attribute itself. It can't be anything.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
If you brought your post(s) (heh..) to Lennox at Oxford, what would he say? Not in the sense of afa, instead, a sit down to discuss. Can you create the scenario in your mind?

Lennox talks about belief in intelligence as risen from matter, and sees it (still) as having been created.

It's up to the individual to add the -or, by extension, or by common sense.

The only thing not tainted by meaning is meaning. You cannot test religion in the same way that you cannot test science - they are. f.e. "god" isn't the scale of attributes, it is the attribute itself. It can't be anything.
I imagine what he would say is that God is not a theory or explanation, but a person. God gave us science and so science cannot disprove God. This is, at least, what he says in some of his debates.

I'm not sure how much weight should be given to the fact that Lennox considers intelligence to be evidence of design. He seems to misunderstand some basic concepts, or else he's being intellectually dishonest. He confuses atheism with naturalism, repeats the trope that Einstein believed in God, and reduces the Big Bang to "something came from nothing" while not seeming to notice that his God would also have had to come from nothing (or need a creator himself, which came from nothing). I don't see anything that sets him apart from the typical apologist. Lots of strawmen, arguments from authority, and misleading rhetoric.

So, Lennox is either decades behind the current conversation or else he purposefully latches on to sophistry. Either way, I'm not sure anything he has to say is worth listening to. If you want to give me a specific argument I will consider it on its own merits, but I don't think you do any argument any favors by connecting it in name to Lennox.
 
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Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Another part of the problem is how hard it is to get someone to at the very least examine the contradictions in what they believe. I've seen some Christians left speechless when I argued that a god who would send everyone born before Jesus to hell, as well as everyone who was never exposed to Christianity, was not a loving or just god. I concluded that each person I had this discussion with was both intellectually and emotionally incapable of dealing with the consequences of my argument, and anyone who cannot engage in rational discussion is also "immunized" by their one irrationality. So I would add that irrationality and denial are the icing on the cake of a religious immunized hypothesis.
The mechanisms behind what you described are known as confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance. These are demonstrable, repeatable and well documented features of human intelligence. One wonders why God would need to include built-in hurtles to rationality when he designed intelligence, unless, of course, these mechanisms (and others like them) gave rise to God rather than God giving rise to the mechanisms.
 

alltatup

Active Member
The mechanisms behind what you described are known as confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance. These are demonstrable, repeatable and well documented features of human intelligence. One wonders why God would need to include built-in hurtles to rationality when he designed intelligence, unless, of course, these mechanisms (and others like them) gave rise to God rather than God giving rise to the mechanisms.
I'd say that first, they are emotional/psychological phenomena against which intelligence forms an irrational defense. Cognitive dissonance occurs when an idea threatens something that's repressed, so various and sundry defense mechanisms kick in. And if you can structure an entire institution around those defenses--the more elaborate the better--you're in the driver's seat as far as upholding truth goes. The Spanish Inquisition was quite eloquent in that way, and got everyone to act like they believed. Human consciousness can be a terrifying thing.

And don't forget the Cartesian evil demon who could be foisting all of this upon us...
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
I imagine what he would say is that God is not a theory or explanation, but a person. God gave us science and so science cannot disprove God. This is, at least, what he says in some of his debates.

I'm not sure how much weight should be given to the fact that Lennox considers intelligence to be evidence of design. He seems to misunderstand some basic concepts, or else he's being intellectually dishonest. He confuses atheism with naturalism, repeats the trope that Einstein believed in God, and reduces the Big Bang to "something came from nothing" while not seeming to notice that his God would also have had to come from nothing (or need a creator himself, which came from nothing). I don't see anything that sets him apart the typical apologist. Lots of strawmen, arguments from authority, and misleading rhetoric.

So, Lennox is either decades behind the current conversation or else he purposefully latches on to sophistry. Either way, I'm not sure anything he has to say is worth listening to. If you want to give me a specific argument I will consider it on its own merits, but I don't think you do any argument any favors by connecting it in name to Lennox.
Always for the sake of contemplation.

Both are valid threads; one of the thinking function, the other of the feeling function. I suppose it's the fine line between feeling materials and material with feeling. One is "the word", the capability to elevate intelligence with a kind of speech. The other is also "word", call science *the word - the actuality. Underlying these actualities are potentialities.

Again with a smattering of afa, but still worth contemplation, what is at the bottom of Heisenberg's glass? The point is that it's a mix, both modes are valid if you start at the right place.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Always for the sake of contemplation.

Both are valid threads; one of the thinking function, the other of the feeling function. I suppose it's the fine line between feeling materials and material with feeling. One is "the word", the capability to elevate intelligence with a kind of speech. The other is also "word", call science *the word - the actuality. Underlying these actualities are potentialities.

Again with a smattering of afa, but still worth contemplation, what is at the bottom of Heisenberg's glass? The point is that it's a mix, both modes are valid if you start at the right place.
My views do not depend on eschewing emotions, but rather, carefully navigating them. Emotions are a wonderful and valuable tool of the human intellect. I believe that if one does not pay attention to emotion, one cannot be fully informed.

The problem is that the more we learn about human intellect the more we learn that emotions can be false. In particular, the problem is that false emotions do not feel any different to us in terms of accuracy. Something can feel so very right while in fact be very wrong. Emotions can be helpful as a sort of executive function indicating what we should do with information once it is verified, but they cannot be relied on to separate what is so from what is not. This isn't just because they are unreliable, but also because, in so many cases, they seem geared to lead us in the opposite direction of truth.

That emotions are useful is actually part of the problem. I say that because in terms of evolution what's useful is not necessarily what is accurate. Protecting ego, ensuring social status and succumbing to superstition are also useful in the right situations. The older parts of our cognition, the ones that rule silently and supremely, are not interested in rationality, they are interested in what's useful.

So yes, thinking and feeling should never be separated, but the fact that something feels right is indication that the something is useful, not that it's true.
 

Z3r0Z3r0

Well-Known Member
Because in the Jewish faith the Jews are the chosen people. Only they can go to heaven.

Anyone not Jewish are good enough to be their servants except were food preparation is concerned.
Are you really that insipid?

Wtf are Himmlerites doing on this forum? Ohh wait KKK tokes now...
I dont blame them, being angry and pissed at having a small penis I would toke too lol
 
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