Nutrient lockout, suddenly becomes worse? or possibly lighting

hi there, i had what i thought was a N deficiency for a while now, but suddenly my plants look much much worse than before. The only thing that has changed is that i moved them from a mh conversion bulb @ 400w back down to some smaller CFLs due to temporary security reasons. can the switch from the mh to weaker cfls cause this kind of effect?

ph is good @ around 6.5

im using lucas formula GH nutes with RO water. PPM is fine

the growing method is hempy buckets in 75% perlite, 25% vermiculite

please help!

They look like they have too much N to me....true, they're lime green and seem to be yellowing from the bottom up but the leaves are huge and starting to claw/curl down a bit and the tips are slightly burnt (especially in that first pic)

Have you been feeding them at full strength or half-dose? Have you flushed them yet? Do you let enough runoff out when you water? Have you grown this strain before?

I would probably give them a healthy leaching to get rid of any salts and then add some nutes at half strength. If start growing normally again, then you probably had some issues with salts locking out your nutrients. I've been growing in coco, which retains a lot of salt, and I've started doing the flush and feed about once a month. It's made a huge difference...

abe23 said:

They look like they have too much N to me....true, they're lime green and seem to be yellowing from the bottom up but the leaves are huge and starting to claw/curl down a bit and the tips are slightly burnt (especially in that first pic)

Have you been feeding them at full strength or half-dose? Have you flushed them yet? Do you let enough runoff out when you water? Have you grown this strain before?

I would probably give them a healthy leaching to get rid of any salts and then add some nutes at half strength. If start growing normally again, then you probably had some issues with salts locking out your nutrients. I've been growing in coco, which retains a lot of salt, and I've started doing the flush and feed about once a month. It's made a huge difference...

Click to expand...

this is my first attempt at growing!

i have flushed previously but maybe have been overfeeding to try to compensate. i will try a full flush and half feed and post the results!

What brand of nutes are you using ?
Do you have a pH meter ?
Do you have a tds meter ?
Is your grow media just perlite ?

My first guess is that they are over watered.
How often do you water them ?

I let my perlite get very dry between watering.
Sometimes I let the plants wilt
before I water again.

Over feeding is bad.

If you flush for more that 15 hours
you will need to start off with light nutes say 25%

You should feed every time you water.

Just use 50% of the max recommended amount,
every time you water
and try not to water too often.

Earl said:

What brand of nutes are you using ?
Do you have a pH meter ?
Do you have a tds meter ?
Is your grow media just perlite ?

My first guess is that they are over watered.
How often do you water them ?

I let my perlite get very dry between watering.
Sometimes I let the plants wilt
before I water again.

Over feeding is bad.

If you flush for more that 15 hours
you will need to start off with light nutes say 25%

You should feed every time you water.

Just use 50% of the max recommended amount,
every time you water
and try not to water too often.

Click to expand...

I am using GH nutes, micro and bloom...lucas formula

I use a cheap drop ph tester

I have no tds meter but exclusively use RO water

75% perlite, 25% vermiculite

I water every 2 days, alternating between feeding and water to try to avoid buildup. it is possible they are overwatered since i wouldn't know any better if they were, but i usually let them get pretty dry before watering.

yesterday i flushed everything out with ro water then tipped them over to drain as much as i could. i gave them a light feed (2.5ml micro, 5ml bloom per gallon) and am now waiting to see results

Welcome to RIU bucketgirl.......
"the claw" its an over nute.
your ph is a bit high as well, i'd drop it down to around 6 so it has room to drift on you. 6.5 is the high mark for hydro, you dont want to be any higher than that to be safe.
ive heard hydro between 5.5 & 6.5, im around 6 in coco, i adjust when it hits 6.5, and all is well. i like to sit right at 6 for my ph, im passive hydro as well - 1 gal pots, hand watering.
5.5 to 5.8 doesnt give you mush leeway for drift and might be difficult to keep it there as your nutes are being eaten up, and the salts are building up.
soil 5.8 to 6.8...ive run up to 7 for soil with only light nitrate lockouts fixed with a flush.

i would flush real good, then start my nutes up at 1/4 strength.....monitor, then up your nutes gradually. you are going to want to flush once a week to remove the salt buildup from the nutes before they become toxic to your babies.

disclaimer: i use coco, this is my first run with coco. it is a bit different from perlite and vermiculite so use my post as reference....its all trial and error, whatever works for you and your system. but there are a few general rules to follow overall, just keep your ph under control, watch your plants and see what they are saying to you. going to take some close calls until you learn all the ins and outs of what issues look like. any sign of issues get back here and do your research, and ask many people. you will find contradicting info, but with some conversations you can generally get to the bottom of whats going on. RIU rocks, the people here are freaking awsome!

again welcome and good luck, hope this helps you out a bit.

5.5 to 5.8 doesnt give you mush leeway for drift and might be difficult to keep it there as your nutes are being eaten up, and the salts are building up. ure salts build up when theyre drinking more water than feeding , making the nutrient solution more concentrated resulting in a rise in ph ppm and ec

Nute lockout and nitrogen defency looks the same,they are hard to tell apart.Id flush for a while if you know you have caused lockout.Its only happened to me once and I like to never got the plants to pull out of it.

If you are using R.O. water you should add some Cal-Mag or Magical. Tap water provided calcium for the plants. I am not saying for sure that is your issue, but it will come back to bite you if you do not add some calcium.

bucketgirl2 said:

I am using GH nutes, micro and bloom...lucas formula

I use a cheap drop ph tester

I have no tds meter but exclusively use RO water

75% perlite, 25% vermiculite

I water every 2 days, alternating between feeding and water to try to avoid buildup. it is possible they are overwatered since i wouldn't know any better if they were, but i usually let them get pretty dry before watering.

yesterday i flushed everything out with ro water then tipped them over to drain as much as i could. i gave them a light feed (2.5ml micro, 5ml bloom per gallon) and am now waiting to see results

Click to expand...

You need to use the three part GH nutes during the veg phase.
Get some grow,
3 grow 2 micro and 1 bloom during veg
1 grow 2 micro and 3 bloom during flower.
Lucas drops the grow during flower and that will work,
but you need the grow during veg.

Cut your nute load in half
and feed every time.

Try to let them dry out before you water them.

When you can afford it,
get a Good pH meter
like a pinpoint.

pinkjackyle said:

5.5 to 5.8 doesnt give you mush leeway for drift and might be difficult to keep it there as your nutes are being eaten up, and the salts are building up. ure salts build up when theyre drinking more water than feeding , making the nutrient solution more concentrated resulting in a rise in ph ppm and ec

Click to expand...

oops.... sorry for the ass backwards....wasnt thinking.....still arent. lol

UPDATE
12/13



7th day into flowering..switched my 400w from MH to HPS...


plants did MUCH better with constant, half-strength feeds as opposed to alternating between watering and heavy feeds. flushing weekly has also seemed to yield positive results.

unfortunately since flowering, all the girls have a sort of "droopy" look to them. in addition, there appears to be a new type of yellowing once again on the new growth.


the only thing i have not yet followed up on despite suggestions here is the cal-mag. i will get it as soon as i can, but i'm wondering if you guys can check these pics out to definitely confirm it's a calcium def



-thanks

It doesn't look like you have any deficiency
How accurate is your pH meter ?
Are you keeping the pH between 5.5 and 5.8 ?

Earl said:

It doesn't look like you have any deficiency
How accurate is your pH meter ?
Are you keeping the pH between 5.5 and 5.8 ?

Click to expand...

still using crappy dropper, ill take a pic next watering of what i think is 5.5-5.8 (yellowish orangeish).

wouldn't doubt that it is ph like you say though

You really need a digital pH meter to get your pH in parameter.

I would suggest a Pinpoint from ebay for about $100

Then you need to get some 4 & 7 calibration fluid
and plan on changing the probe every other grow or once a year.

Earl said:

You really need a digital pH meter to get your pH in parameter.

I would suggest a Pinpoint from ebay for about $100

Then you need to get some 4 & 7 calibration fluid
and plan on changing the probe every other grow or once a year.

Click to expand...

It looks like a slight cal mag deficiency on the verge of progression but I might be wrong. So you havn't used cal mag at all? Doesn't the GH micro have cal mag in it? a tds meter would come in handy right now. you could flush and check the ppms to see if its locked out.

Definitely get a digital ph meter. You can even get them cheaper then 100 on ebay but im assuming the pinpoint is really good. You can also get a really cheap tds meter(ppm pen) for abot 20 bucks. I have even seen them as a bonus item with brita filters at walmart lol. reading your ppm levels for hydro nutes is essential.

The more expensive Pinpoint is very accurate
the probe is easy to replace
and can even upgrade to LAB Grade probes .

The tds pens are pretty cheap
and semi reliable

Precision is not as important when measuring tds
as it is with when measuring pH

Cheaper tds meters will not last as long as a better one
like Pinpoint or Milwaukee
both come with a replaceable tds probe.

Also, it is nice to leave the tds probe in the rez full time
and you can't do that with a pen meter.

But a $15 pen meter is better than nothing,
and will get through one grow.

If you plan on growing more than one season
then invest in better meters.

If you are only going to do a single grow
then you can get by with a $40 pH pen meter
and $15 tds pen meter.
.

Getting worse


Going to get that cal-mag in a bit. just flushed last night but it doesn't seem to have helped.

leaves at the bottom are getting this incinerated look to them, big blotchy brown spots. they shrivel up and die quickly.


last picture is most recent, you can clearly see a leaf going through this process.

the droopiness makes no sense to me either...it's def not moisture stress

I think what is happening,
you are root bound.

The top of the roots get too dry
and the bottom of the root
doesn't get dry enough

You might get away with it
if you add more drainage holes
so the bottom will get dry
at the same rate as the top.

Then you may need to water more often,
more like an "ebb n flow" schedule
a couple of times a day.

It is OK to let them wilt for a few hours
to really dry out the grow media.
be brave.
measure the time it takes
to get them really dry, and thirsty, wilted,
then schedule your water/nute application accordingly.