How many innocent lives are your guns worth?

[Figong]

There are a lot of very nice, perfectly working automatics out there.

I was looking into buying an M60 for my dad who was a chopper gunner in 'Nam.

M60's in good working order are not cheap. That is what's keeping these guns out of school shooters hands, not government interference.

Oh, am not going to argue.. was just saying that more than a few of them would be completely useless for shooting, and as such.. those may be ones that collectors get just to say that they own one, like the thompson submachine .22

 

[kelly4]

Stalemate my ass, quick math says if we were to give just -2%- of our current US military veterans (those who pass psych eval, re-qual in weapons/etc) jobs in our schools.. this would not happen. 2% would guarantee 4 soldiers fully armed... perfect for active shooter situation in any aspect, as well as 2x2 leapfrog, room clearing.. check/clear.. the list of benefits with a group of 4 are nearly endless, as most are cross-trained. There's a viable, sane approach to an active shooter. Give the US notice that if you try, you will be engaged by 4 military veterans who will be heavily armored, and armed both. Bet your ass that there won't be another Sandy Hook if it gets implemented.

Sounds like the good foundation for a police state.

 

[Figong]

I should get my Class 3, just so I can import a bazooka - will be a conversation piece, laying on the coffee table.

 

[Figong]

Sounds like the good foundation for a police state.

Potentially yes, that'd be a major downside.. but would definitely prevent a tragedy like that in the future.. I feel so, anyway.

 

[deprave]

that is the problem with the gun folks - the point to solutions that are even more impossible than the ones others propose. how would you get every child with loving parents and a good upbringing? (and do you actually suppose that is all it would take to end the gun crazy violence? really?).


I didn't come here to offer a solution - i cam here to offer reality - that your insistance on unfettered ownership of any and all firearms costs society. You are either willing to meet that cost head on as NLX did or you are lying to yourself.


Once you are actually willing to admit the cost then things can actually be done to mitigate that cost, until then there is the same stalemate until enough children have died that your right to keep and bear will be seriously in danger - and you know this to be true.

that is the problem with the gun folks - the point to solutions that are even more impossible than the ones others propose. how would you get every child with loving parents and a good upbringing? (and do you actually suppose that is all it would take to end the gun crazy violence? really?).
So removing hunks of metal created hundreds of years ago in your mind is more possible and more reasonable then raising children appropriately? Its more likely to keep people from commiting acts of violence and eliminating victims? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds now that your reading it again? Do you realize that the children are the victims that we need to protect so that there will be less violence?

I didn't come here to offer a solution - i cam here to offer reality - that your insistance on unfettered ownership of any and all firearms costs society. You are either willing to meet that cost head on as NLX did or you are lying to yourself.

My logical conistenetency and rational mindset when I see the reality of the situation in that hunks of metal from the 1800's which can be forged by a mans bare hands cannot be removed from society? That rock fire are naturual elements of the earth which cannot be disposed of? that violent force cannot be opposed by another violent force to break a cycle? That violence is a cycle which we in turn pass to our children?


Once you are actually willing to admit the cost then things can actually be done to mitigate that cost, until then there is the same stalemate until enough children have died that your right to keep and bear will be seriously in danger - and you know this to be true.

If every gun is destroyed children will continue to be murdered as long as there is violence and hardship in this world, thats the fact of the matter, inanimate objects don't create the cycle of violence, we do. We have to help ourselves, the government sure doesn't have helping us in its interest.


Again Waiting for your suggestion of "Reasonable Gun Control Measures".....

 

[Figong]

If every gun is destroyed children will continue to be murdered as long as their is violence and hardship in this world, thats the fact of the matter, inanimate objects don't create the cycle of violence, we do.

Which is also why an international registry for those who buy matches to stop pyros from getting out of control would be useless too.

 

[Figong]

By George, I think I've got it. Reasonable gun control measures = using both hands.

 

[kelly4]

that is the problem with the gun folks - the point to solutions that are even more impossible than the ones others propose. how would you get every child with loving parents and a good upbringing? (and do you actually suppose that is all it would take to end the gun crazy violence? really?).
So removing hunks of metal created hundreds of years ago in your mind is more possible and more reasonable then raising children appropriately? Its more likely to keep people from commiting acts of violence and eliminating victims? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds now that your reading it again? Do you realize that the children are the victims that we need to protect so that there will be less violence?

I didn't come here to offer a solution - i cam here to offer reality - that your insistance on unfettered ownership of any and all firearms costs society. You are either willing to meet that cost head on as NLX did or you are lying to yourself.

My logical conistenetency and rational mindset when I see the reality of the situation in that hunks of metal from the 1800's which can be forged by a mans bare hands cannot be removed from society? That rock fire are naturual elements of the earth which cannot be disposed of? that violent force cannot be opposed by another violent force to break a cycle? That violence is a cycle which we in turn pass to our children?


Once you are actually willing to admit the cost then things can actually be done to mitigate that cost, until then there is the same stalemate until enough children have died that your right to keep and bear will be seriously in danger - and you know this to be true.

If every gun is destroyed children will continue to be murdered as long as there is violence and hardship in this world, thats the fact of the matter, inanimate objects don't create the cycle of violence, we do. We have to help ourselves, the government sure doesn't have helping us in its interest.


Again Waiting for your suggestion of "Reasonable Gun Control Measures".....

Which is also why an international registry for those who buy matches to stop pyros from getting out of control would be useless too.

Did you two happen to see the things that some of us wanted to have banned yesterday? It was all in the name of 'common sense' and was being talked about for the 'sake of the children'.

Lifegoesonbrah had the most compelling and moving chart. It demands action!


Matches! We forgot to ban the matches, Brah!

 

[canndo]

Great so we have some suggestions..GREAT!.. but wait .....SURPRISE! THEY ARE COMPLETELY IRRATIONAL!

*first we could apply pressure upon manufacturers to come up with a cure.

To make a gun fully automatic is simple mechanics, This is 100 year old technology here. Its basic metal work.

*Gun regulation does not necessarily include the absolute denial of all people all guns, it denies some people some guns

As I wrote, You cannot even be specific and provide the details on how this supposedly awesome gun control plan is going to work or even what it entails without being completely irrational/unreasonable/illogical/fallacious/vague etc..

Second, if it is so easy, why are we not seeing more of it in mass shootings?

its easy, google it. It can be done with a paperclip actually on some guns, you don't really need to do metal work. You expose your self again as someone completely naive about guns, automatic fire is only good for cover fire your less likely to hit your target.

And it always comes down to "you don't know anything a bout guns and therefore anything you say is meaningless"... firstly I happen to know some things about guns and secondly that sort of attitude would preclude most of us from discussing most things. I don't recall how much you have had to say about global warming or alternative fuels but I know quite a bit about those things, does that preclude you from an opinion? Actually I am curious about that - does it?


Now I don't know much about making beer but I do know that most won't do it. I know a lot about distilation and I know very few people will do that - even when it is pretty damn easy.

My point is that a little preventative ingeinuity would stop a hell of a lot of less determined people make conversions. I also know that a fully automatic weapon in a close with a group of unarmed people will cause a great deal of damage even if you are less than adept at handling the weapon. Or are you saying that the government's severe restrictions on fully automatic weapons was simply one more waste of governmental time and resources and that we should be free to aquire such weapons as well?

 

[Figong]

Did you two happen to see the thing that some of us wanted to have banned yesterday? It was all in the name of 'common sense' and was being talked about for the 'sake of the children'.



Matches! We forgot to ban the matches, Brah!

Nope, missed that - glad I could contribute to the awesome ideas of other things to ban though.

haha, just googled it.. found an awesome shirt that summarizes it!

 

[PurpleBuz]

But the question finally draws down to a very simple one: how many innocent deaths is each one of your guns worth?

I know I am making some critical presumptions, that the removal of law abiding citizen's guns does not directly correlate with a reduction in gun violence and that there is the counterbalancing factor of self protection and perhaps an offset for potential governmental tyranny.

But that aside, presuming that a number could be established,

BUT your question is invalid.
1. You are making false assumptions based on an isolated set of stats.
2. You assume that if you disarm law abiding citizens, that children won't be killed?
3. You are focusing on the tools used in the crimes, not the causes.

Why don't you ask something real, significant and quantifiable?
For example:
How many people are shot because MJ is illegal?
How do we disarm dangerous criminals or crazies?

 

[Figong]

-snip-
How do we disarm dangerous criminals or crazies?

If they're high on meth, just go digging with a shovel in their yard.. they'll come out, wondering what you're doing and offer to help you dig.

If they're high on meth and trying to kill you.. fastest way to disarm would be a double tap through the sinus cavity after you take a pelvic shot to slow advancement.. and if placed right.. bleed-out in < 4 minutes (re: pelvic shot alone)

 

[Rob Roy]

And it always comes down to "you don't know anything a bout guns and therefore anything you say is meaningless"... firstly I happen to know some things about guns and secondly that sort of attitude would preclude most of us from discussing most things. I don't recall how much you have had to say about global warming or alternative fuels but I know quite a bit about those things, does that preclude you from an opinion? Actually I am curious about that - does it?


Now I don't know much about making beer but I do know that most won't do it. I know a lot about distilation and I know very few people will do that - even when it is pretty damn easy.

My point is that a little preventative ingeinuity would stop a hell of a lot of less determined people make conversions. I also know that a fully automatic weapon in a close with a group of unarmed people will cause a great deal of damage even if you are less than adept at handling the weapon. Or are you saying that the government's severe restrictions on fully automatic weapons was simply one more waste of governmental time and resources and that we should be free to aquire such weapons as well?

In your last line you say "government resources" .... Uh-oh oxymoron alarm is going off. Please explain how you want to get rid of guns, yet fail to address the gun that is used to acquire said (ahem) "resources"

 

[PurpleBuz]

If you knew for certain that surrendering your weapon would save children's lives, how many would it take for you to exchange your glock for a k-cup coffee maker?

But except for a few minor vices I am about as good a citizen as anybody would want, and surrendering my weapon is not gonna save any innocents since I don't go around killing innocents. The point is ... your "if" is invalid.

 

[Doer]

that is the problem with the gun folks - the point to solutions that are even more impossible than the ones others propose. how would you get every child with loving parents and a good upbringing? (and do you actually suppose that is all it would take to end the gun crazy violence? really?).


I didn't come here to offer a solution - i cam here to offer reality - that your insistance on unfettered ownership of any and all firearms costs society. You are either willing to meet that cost head on as NLX did or you are lying to yourself.


Once you are actually willing to admit the cost then things can actually be done to mitigate that cost, until then there is the same stalemate until enough children have died that your right to keep and bear will be seriously in danger - and you know this to be true.

No we don't. It's sophistry from top to bottom. Don't you know better?

There is no problem. Why? Because we have this Constitution to prevent you. BIG LIES. There is no problem. #!.

Thug tactics in the Psycho War. "Gun owners are immoral and don't care about kids." Such monsters, defacto murderers, actually. This is sickening to me. Good luck attempting to suspend the 2nd.

You have no Reality if you can't understand the Constitution is not a dead document as you have stated.

No one is saying unfettered ownership of anything. Are you beginning to understand what sophistry is? You make up something, smear with it and then piss on those you smeared.

Again you are making up a problem of Cost. Don't you sicken yourself? Children die mostly on the road. And it doesn't take an assault rifle with 11 rounds to assault a school. So, you are simply a mouth organ of Agenda with no original thought.

A Papist, fed pap.

And address this. Guns do not cost, they save.

 

[canndo]

that is the problem with the gun folks - the point to solutions that are even more impossible than the ones others propose. how would you get every child with loving parents and a good upbringing? (and do you actually suppose that is all it would take to end the gun crazy violence? really?).
So removing hunks of metal created hundreds of years ago in your mind is more possible and more reasonable then raising children appropriately? Its more likely to keep people from commiting acts of violence and eliminating victims? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds now that your reading it again? Do you realize that the children are the victims that we need to protect so that there will be less violence?

I didn't come here to offer a solution - i cam here to offer reality - that your insistance on unfettered ownership of any and all firearms costs society. You are either willing to meet that cost head on as NLX did or you are lying to yourself.

My logical conistenetency and rational mindset when I see the reality of the situation in that hunks of metal from the 1800's which can be forged by a mans bare hands cannot be removed from society? That rock fire are naturual elements of the earth which cannot be disposed of? that violent force cannot be opposed by another violent force to break a cycle? That violence is a cycle which we in turn pass to our children?


Once you are actually willing to admit the cost then things can actually be done to mitigate that cost, until then there is the same stalemate until enough children have died that your right to keep and bear will be seriously in danger - and you know this to be true.

If every gun is destroyed children will continue to be murdered as long as there is violence and hardship in this world, thats the fact of the matter, inanimate objects don't create the cycle of violence, we do. We have to help ourselves, the government sure doesn't have helping us in its interest.


Again Waiting for your suggestion of "Reasonable Gun Control Measures".....

1. We can apply legal sanctions, we can collect and ban machines far easier than we can mandate the behavior of families. You are going back to the organics of firearms and that seems to be necessary to your argument when the truth is quite different. Certainly a man can create a firearm from earth wind and fire - itis highly unlikely that this man will take on such an endeavor with the express purpose of shooting up a school or church. You and I both know that.

I have reloaded my share of ammunition, I have molded my share of projectiles, I have shaved and shaped my share of stocks, resized brass, measured powder and the rest. I served as an apprentice with a master gunsmith, my grandfather since I was a small boy. My first firearm was given to me at the age of 11. My grandfather lived productively to the age of 99 (and he was genuinely pissed that he didn't make 100). Herters catalog and the gun bible were my required reading. We would rove military firing ranges for spent 50 caliber barrels in order to make wildely inaccurate rifles.
but that gives me no authority when it comes to modern firearms as my training ended some 40 years ago.

Now do I have a solution that does not violate my understanding of not only the 2nd amendment but the spirit of the constitution? it does not.

But what I am saying is that it is incumbent upon gun owners, most especially the intransigent ones who maintain that there is nothing they are willing to do, to come out and admit that their intransigence, their unwilling to admit that that intransegence is a part of the problem and costs lives. Come out and say that your right to keep and bear is born on the backs of innocents.

Oh and to this long used ploy "well children will be killed anyway" holds no truck as they will not be killed in such profusion as that is what the weapon of choice of the madman is - a tool for killing large numbers of people in short periods of time. Anything that will delay that ability might do some good.

 

[canndo]

No we don't it's sophistry from top to bottom. Don't you know better?

There is no problem. Why? Because we have this Constituion to prevent you. BIG LIES. There is no problem. #!.

Thug tactics. Gun owner are immoral and don't care about kids. This is sickening to me.

You have no reality if you can't understand the Constitution is not a dead document as you have stated.

No one is saying unfettered ownership of anything. Are you begining to understand what sophistry is? You make up something, smear with it and then piss on those you smeared.

Again you are making up a problem of Cost. Don't you sicken yourself? Childern die on the road and it doesn't take an assault rifle with 11 rounds to assault a school. So, you are simply a mouth organ of Agenda with no original thought.

A Papist, fed pap.

And address this. Guns do not cost, they save.

so you believe in a living, breathing constitution do you? I didn't think you to be a liberal.

 

[Figong]

My point is that a little preventative ingeinuity would stop a hell of a lot of less determined people make conversions. I also know that a fully automatic weapon in a close with a group of unarmed people will cause a great deal of damage even if you are less than adept at handling the weapon. Or are you saying that the government's severe restrictions on fully automatic weapons was simply one more waste of governmental time and resources and that we should be free to aquire such weapons as well?

If the mod kits aren't done in the US, they'll be made in China, and sold even cheaper.. so there will be more in circulation. The heavy restrictions on fully automatic weapons only stops legitimate collectors who may not have the $ from getting one. You can walk into Detroit or Flint and pick up an UZI for 100.00 USD, no serial on it. If the severe restrictions are not a waste of time, could you explain how a 100 dollar no serial # UZI can be obtained so easily? This is the primary point for the pro-2A.. it is the human, not the weapon that is the issue... and criminals will not follow the laws, hence they're criminals - shocker, I know.

 

[Rob Roy]

In your last line you say "government resources" .... Uh-oh oxymoron alarm is going off. Please explain how you want to get rid of guns, yet fail to address the gun that is used to acquire said (ahem) "resources"

....ahem.... hey...over here.

 

[canndo]

BUT your question is invalid.
1. You are making false assumptions based on an isolated set of stats.
2. You assume that if you disarm law abiding citizens, that children won't be killed?
3. You are focusing on the tools used in the crimes, not the causes.

Why don't you ask something real, significant and quantifiable?
For example:
How many people are shot because MJ is illegal?
How do we disarm dangerous criminals or crazies?

No I am not - you are making the same error most make. We cannot stop all children from being killed. We can stop the number that are killed at one time and we can do that by slowing down one's rate of fire or making that rate of fire intermittent.