The Science of Interconnectedness.

Doer

Well-Known Member
i guess its the same, i seem to be recalling something about the development and mutation that evolved our voice box and how being able to communicate like that further advanced out evolution differently then other species because of something about the way we socialize, which is not a genetic evolution as you said but sociological, commuity based . . i dont know now ill have to go back and look it up, some old lady on a ted talks episode . . .it was intriguing at the time but i have forgotten some of its key concepts
Oh, I understand you. Human Evolution, a special case, was almost over, 75K yeas ago. In fact, technically, our entire species seems to have been, more or less, wiped out.

So, in a very real way, we are just the last family, if the DNA trail is being interpreted correctly. And it is certainly plausible an adaptation in the voice box was key to survival. I imagine men, silent on the hunt, with sign language. But, the women are chattering away in the berry bushes to keep track of each of other and danger.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Oh, I understand you. Human Evolution, a special case, was almost over, 75K yeas ago. In fact, technically, our entire species seems to have been, more or less, wiped out.

So, in a very real way, we are just the last family, if the DNA trail is being interpreted correctly. And it is certainly plausible an adaptation in the voice box was key to survival. I imagine men, silent on the hunt, with sign language. But, the women are chattering away in the berry bushes to keep track of each of other and danger.
Men very probably used their voices as much during their two key activities: the hunt and the raid. Especially in poor light or close terrain, auditory cues and messages must have been valuable. Why not exploit a tactical resource? cn
 

Doer

Well-Known Member
Men very probably used their voices as much during their two key activities: the hunt and the raid. Especially in poor light or close terrain, auditory cues and messages must have been valuable. Why not exploit a tactical resource? cn
Oh yeah, and guys need something from the earliest for being startled..WHAT the F**K!!!
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
Oh, I understand you. Human Evolution, a special case, was almost over, 75K yeas ago. In fact, technically, our entire species seems to have been, more or less, wiped out.

So, in a very real way, we are just the last family, if the DNA trail is being interpreted correctly. And it is certainly plausible an adaptation in the voice box was key to survival. I imagine men, silent on the hunt, with sign language. But, the women are chattering away in the berry bushes to keep track of each of other and danger.
Reminds me of the world's shortest joke: Two women sat together quietly...
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Lol then why so passionately engage me if you think I am wrong? You still have never answered that question. What is your motivation for these wild goose chases besides self benefit? Do you feel like a guardian of truth and engage those that dont make sense according to you thus feeling like you are saving people from being fooled? What is your motivation?

And my arguments do apply to all the examples you have provided. I would add a few of my own spiritual aspects to Sheldrakes theory, I have always knew a form of interconnectedness existed, Sheldrake was just the first scientist that tried to explain this spiritual aspect of the world, but like I said that would be too far fetched for you and its really not worth mentioning.

This is the song that never ends....
I'm touched that you find my posts passionate, considering I am a robot. I am under no obligation to explain my motivation, but I have tried before. You decided not to bother reading it. I am simply treating you as an adult and taking your words seriously. The only time I tend to write someone off is when they are outright belligerent, hopelessly racist, ect. You have your moments, but for the most part you are just naive and stubborn, one of which is not a bad quality, and I have seen you grow already. I do not care if I change your mind about specific ideas, but already your level of conversation has improved over when you got here. You are asking questions, attempting to explain yourself, and giving more than one line 'lol' style replies. Changing your beliefs would be a poor goal for me, but you are becoming more intellectually sophisticated and better able to communicate regardless. I don't pretend every post I make is geared towards that, the forums and everyone who genuinely engages you deserves credit, but it's an atmosphere I like to foster, to encourage all around. I like to treat people with dignity, and that sometimes means calling them on bullshit, more so here than any other place. I could decide you are a three year old and dismiss you. I could decide you are demented and humor you. I could decide you are stupid and abuse you. Instead I choose to treat your words as if they are worthy of an honest response.

I could go on but I would be in danger of getting my post skipped.
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
So Heis should know better than to discuss with me? Or three year olds like to argue with other three year olds?
It's not that she's wrong, she's three... she's entitled to be wrong. It's the fucking arrogance...of this kid! No humility, no decent sense of self-doubt.
 

Chief Walkin Eagle

Well-Known Member
I'm touched that you find my posts passionate, considering I am a robot. I am under no obligation to explain my motivation, but I have tried before. You decided not to bother reading it. I am simply treating you as an adult and taking your words seriously. The only time I tend to write someone off is when they are outright belligerent, hopelessly racist, ect. You have your moments, but for the most part you are just naive and stubborn, one of which is not a bad quality, and I have seen you grow already. I do not care if I change your mind about specific ideas, but already your level of conversation has improved over when you got here. You are asking questions, attempting to explain yourself, and giving more than one line 'lol' style replies. Changing your beliefs would be a poor goal for me, but you are becoming more intellectually sophisticated and better able to communicate regardless. I don't pretend every post I make is geared towards that, the forums and everyone who genuinely engages you deserves credit, but it's an atmosphere I like to foster, to encourage all around. I like to treat people with dignity, and that sometimes means calling them on bullshit, more so here than any other place. I could decide you are a three year old and dismiss you. I could decide you are demented and humor you. I could decide you are stupid and abuse you. Instead I choose to treat your words as if they are worthy of an honest response.

I could go on but I would be in danger of getting my post skipped.
Very well said. My responses have become more structured as a result of being here. I have started to care a lot less of the opinion of skeptics and respond more calmly. I was used to conversing with like minded people before I got here and didnt realize such passionate nay-sayers existed so I was out of my element. The fact that most of the like minded people I like conversing with are aggressively opposed into silence didnt sit well with me as well, so I acted out. I thought the scientific, atheist, skeptical dictation of spiritual topics was pigheaded, especially in a forum that starts with Spirituality. Not playing the hurt card, just explaining.

You may treat my like an adult but you do not take my words seriously, imo. Do you think anything that I presented in this forum has any chance of being true? You take calling bullshit seriously, not my words. Its also hard to think that you are taking me seriously when MP thinks you are arguing with a three year old. So the only seriousness I see is you calling bullshit and your intentions for calling bullshit are to prevent others from believing the so called bullshit because the bullshit doesnt sit well with your atheist, scientific world view, a worldview that you think should be adopted by more people, which is biased, imo.
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Very well said. My responses have become more structured as a result of being here. I have started to care a lot less of the opinion of skeptics and respond more calmly. I was used to conversing with like minded people before I got here and didnt realize such passionate nay-sayers existed so I was out of my element. The fact that most of the like minded people I like conversing with are aggressively opposed into silence didnt sit well with me as well, so I acted out. I thought the scientific, atheist, skeptical dictation of spiritual topics was pigheaded, especially in a forum that starts with Spirituality. Not playing the hurt card, just explaining..
First I would like to say welcome again, as it does appear that you have tempered your discussions somewhat, making it more likely that people will engage you in intelligent conversation rather than dismiss you as I had to do. You have acted like the 3 year old many, many times here and not the least of which is your continued charges of skeptics and non-believers spending time in a spiritual forum. No matter how many times I and others pointed out that this forum is not only for spiritual conversation, but philosophical as well you merely ignored such comments and continued your attacks. You ignored the posts that explained how Cartesian doubt is the basis for much modern philosophical thought and skepticism. You also never appropriately responded directly to criticisms that I specifically brought up and dismissed them with a hand wave. That type of behavior will certainly get anyone written off as one that is incapable or unwilling to defend their position and therefore not worthy of discussion on any serious level.
I do see some growth in your responses but I can't help but believe you have not performed any self-examination of your credulousness, yet continue discussions with an air of arrogance with those that have spent more time contemplating these things than you have been alive.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Very well said. My responses have become more structured as a result of being here. I have started to care a lot less of the opinion of skeptics and respond more calmly. I was used to conversing with like minded people before I got here and didnt realize such passionate nay-sayers existed so I was out of my element. The fact that most of the like minded people I like conversing with are aggressively opposed into silence didnt sit well with me as well, so I acted out. I thought the scientific, atheist, skeptical dictation of spiritual topics was pigheaded, especially in a forum that starts with Spirituality. Not playing the hurt card, just explaining.

You may treat my like an adult but you do not take my words seriously, imo. Do you think anything that I presented in this forum has any chance of being true? You take calling bullshit seriously, not my words. Its also hard to think that you are taking me seriously when MP thinks you are arguing with a three year old. So the only seriousness I see is you calling bullshit and your intentions for calling bullshit are to prevent others from believing the so called bullshit because the bullshit doesnt sit well with your atheist, scientific world view, a worldview that you think should be adopted by more people, which is biased, imo.
Chief, I would welcome a defense of spiritual effects in daily life. However you and I have very different standards of proof. When science is the subject, I insist on the scientific method as the mediator/vehicle of such proof. When nonscientific things are discussed, I don't view scientific method as appropriate. That is why you'll never catch me trying to "disprove God" or any such intellectual hamsterwheeling.

However I'd like to say that asking if something is plausible isn't very interesting, since Russell's teapot can't be disproven, but its proof or disproof doesn't advance anyone's argument in any case.
Imo calling bullshit is a very healthy activity: it requires the claimant to firm up his argument, and it obligates the challenger to articulate what is bullshit ... the how and why of the challenge. It's a sort of sparring: no risk of harm as in actual combat, but skills are learned (and deficiencies revealed) in pursuing the dark arts of defense.
I would be fascinated and impressed by an example of undeniable spirit effect on the material substrate. However I hope you can understand that I would be very very picky about what constitutes undeniability. What keeps me gunshy is the extreme difficulty in correcting for human "psychomania", our startlingly promiscuous tendency to see spirit-action in unlikely material happenings. In my case, that is the target and challenge ... I would need to be convinced that I am not being led into one of the myriad culs-de-sac of apophenia, theism or simple revelatory declaration, "it's thus because I say so". cn
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
...a cool thing happened one night. I was driving someone to a friend's house and mulling over some idea or other. It came to mind an article I read on the subject of affecting electricity. Anyway, I got through the usual bs about sliders and all that. I got into some much better material on the subject later on...

...at any rate, on the way home I had to stop for gas. About a block away I laughed and thought 'wouldn't it be messed up if the lights above the gas station were to go out'. As I round the curb to drive in, the lights above the gas station fckd up bad and went out.

...I didn't tell this story to make any point whatsoever. Just relaying an experience.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Very well said. My responses have become more structured as a result of being here. I have started to care a lot less of the opinion of skeptics and respond more calmly. I was used to conversing with like minded people before I got here and didnt realize such passionate nay-sayers existed so I was out of my element. The fact that most of the like minded people I like conversing with are aggressively opposed into silence didnt sit well with me as well, so I acted out. I thought the scientific, atheist, skeptical dictation of spiritual topics was pigheaded, especially in a forum that starts with Spirituality. Not playing the hurt card, just explaining.
Yes Chief, you are outnumbered, that is clear. Yet you still continue to participate, and the more you do so, the more meaningful your participation becomes, to yourself as well as others. You could have bugged out after the first month or so when your one liners played themselves out, but you stuck with it. You obviously find some value in being challenged, and that is the first step towards any progress. Appreciation for challenge is in fact the only way we can agree to disagree. Challenge is something I value, so I admire you when you do not shy away from it, and it encourages me to keep reading what you say.

You may treat my like an adult but you do not take my words seriously, imo. Do you think anything that I presented in this forum has any chance of being true? You take calling bullshit seriously, not my words. Its also hard to think that you are taking me seriously when MP thinks you are arguing with a three year old.
I don't think most of your ideas have merit, and to be fair most of them aren't yours. That doesn't mean I don't take you seriously. I believe you are genuine, not lying or playing me for a fool. You mean what you say. I have complimented you a time or two, even endorsed a few of your ideas, you apparently do not pay attention. When you say something in this forum, you are saying it to me as much as anybody. When you say something to me, I respond as honestly as I can. When you respond to what I say like a child, I call you on that as well.

And BTW you can't guess my motivation based on something MP said. He was not commenting on my motivation. you are not a three year old, and his point was that it's humorous that a conversation with you is practically the same thing, the main similarity being your arrogance and lack of self assessment.

]So the only seriousness I see is you calling bullshit and your intentions for calling bullshit are to prevent others from believing the so called bullshit because the bullshit doesnt sit well with your atheist, scientific world view, a worldview that you think should be adopted by more people, which is biased, imo.
I do call bullshit a lot, and you present bullshit a lot. Your description is not inaccurate until you get to the why. You are making an assumption, although it may be a reasonable one. But ask yourself, If I was really worried about other's beliefs not sitting right with me, wouldn't I talk only on skeptic forums. I enjoy discourse, challenge, it always teaches me something. I have never complained about you expressing your beliefs or defending them, just the way in which you do it and the arguments you use. I support your right to express and defend your worldview, just as I support my right to do so as well. Expression, words, are never force. Nobody has been forced to leave or cease participation in these forums because of what they believe, they simply find more value in other places when they find challenge here.
 

Chief Walkin Eagle

Well-Known Member
First I would like to say welcome again, as it does appear that you have tempered your discussions somewhat, making it more likely that people will engage you in intelligent conversation rather than dismiss you as I had to do. You have acted like the 3 year old many, many times here and not the least of which is your continued charges of skeptics and non-believers spending time in a spiritual forum. No matter how many times I and others pointed out that this forum is not only for spiritual conversation, but philosophical as well you merely ignored such comments and continued your attacks. You ignored the posts that explained how Cartesian doubt is the basis for much modern philosophical thought and skepticism. You also never appropriately responded directly to criticisms that I specifically brought up and dismissed them with a hand wave. That type of behavior will certainly get anyone written off as one that is incapable or unwilling to defend their position and therefore not worthy of discussion on any serious level.
I do see some growth in your responses but I can't help but believe you have not performed any self-examination of your credulousness, yet continue discussions with an air of arrogance with those that have spent more time contemplating these things than you have been alive.
I understand what you have to say on the supposedly necessary criticism and skepticism of spiritual topics. I just dont see the point behind it other than to convince the other that their way of thinking is illogical according to a certain paradigm. Spirituality and science are thought to be polar opposites of each other, do you agree? One cannot test the other, and looks down upon those that try, so it says its illogical to believe in it. The other one says it doesnt need the other because it only applies to physical reality and is useless in true reality. What agreement is there to be had when both sides think the other is unreasonable and being deluded? It ends up being dictated by the aggressors by saying "science says this, so you're thinking illogically, my friends agree with me". Your "credulousness" comment is proving my point, there can be no agreement, just the self proclaimed superior worldview ridiculing the other. I really see no point to it other then to shut the supposedly illogical thinkers up.

I dont think I need the self examination. I know who I am, I've experienced a lot in my 21 years and I have learned a great deal from these experiences, the "supernatural" ones being consistent. Im sure the veteran contemplaters could learn a thing or two from certain experiences, but they havent had such experiences, so they continue to question and ridicule them. I just need to go out on the deck and look up on a clear night in order to get a refreshing dose of reality. If only people looked up! Im not just talking about you guys, everyone needs to look up. Most of the western world is just a bunch of shallow zombies that forgot what beauty is, discovery as well ;). I guess me saying this isnt changing anyones mind though, just thought I'd try to be genuine.

I am finally starting to like singing along with the song that never ends.
 

Chief Walkin Eagle

Well-Known Member
...a cool thing happened one night. I was driving someone to a friend's house and mulling over some idea or other. It came to mind an article I read on the subject of affecting electricity. Anyway, I got through the usual bs about sliders and all that. I got into some much better material on the subject later on...

...at any rate, on the way home I had to stop for gas. About a block away I laughed and thought 'wouldn't it be messed up if the lights above the gas station were to go out'. As I round the curb to drive in, the lights above the gas station fckd up bad and went out.

...I didn't tell this story to make any point whatsoever. Just relaying an experience.
Thats cool. My friend and I experience something similar. So many times we would drive past this certain street light and it would go out, never seen it go out for people far ahead or for people far behind, we always look at that light now lol. Does your experience have something to do with the electricity topic you were talking about?
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I understand what you have to say on the supposedly necessary criticism and skepticism of spiritual topics. I just dont see the point behind it other than to convince the other that their way of thinking is illogical according to a certain paradigm. Spirituality and science are thought to be polar opposites of each other, do you agree? One cannot test the other, and looks down upon those that try, so it says its illogical to believe in it.
No. That holds true of scientism, the movement that elevates science to a religion. But science shouldn't be confused with the ideology of scientism, and does not compel or condone the ideology. Science is not so hostile.
I do not consider science and spirit to be polar opposites. i believe the opposition to be manufactured. They are "nonoverlapping magisteria", to borrow the grand old phrase from Gould.
The other one says it doesnt need the other because it only applies to physical reality and is useless in true reality. What agreement is there to be had when both sides think the other is unreasonable and being deluded? It ends up being dictated by the aggressors by saying "science says this, so you're thinking illogically, my friends agree with me". Your "credulousness" comment is proving my point, there can be no agreement, just the self proclaimed superior worldview ridiculing the other. I really see no point to it other then to shut the supposedly illogical thinkers up.
I only complain when you try to misuse the name of science for unscientific doings. The world of science is eminently reasonable, if you respect its limitations. The world of scientism, like that of any ambitious, jealous religion, is not. Please resist tarring one with the other's brush.
I dont think I need the self examination. I know who I am, I've experienced a lot in my 21 years and I have learned a great deal from these experiences, the "supernatural" ones being consistent. Im sure the veteran contemplaters could learn a thing or two from certain experiences, but they havent had such experiences, so they continue to question and ridicule them. I just need to go out on the deck and look up on a clear night in order to get a refreshing dose of reality. If only people looked up! Im not just talking about you guys, everyone needs to look up. Most of the western world is just a bunch of shallow zombies that forgot what beauty is, discovery as well ;). I guess me saying this isnt changing anyones mind though, just thought I'd try to be genuine.

I am finally starting to like singing along with the song that never ends.
I look up long and often. I take tremendous pleasure in watching the deep sky. I have all sorts of astro hardware. It's quite emotional to know that the light from that smudge in the eyepiece has been under way since before there was life on land here. cn
 

Chief Walkin Eagle

Well-Known Member
Chief, I would welcome a defense of spiritual effects in daily life. However you and I have very different standards of proof. When science is the subject, I insist on the scientific method as the mediator/vehicle of such proof. When nonscientific things are discussed, I don't view scientific method as appropriate. That is why you'll never catch me trying to "disprove God" or any such intellectual hamsterwheeling.

However I'd like to say that asking if something is plausible isn't very interesting, since Russell's teapot can't be disproven, but its proof or disproof doesn't advance anyone's argument in any case.
Imo calling bullshit is a very healthy activity: it requires the claimant to firm up his argument, and it obligates the challenger to articulate what is bullshit ... the how and why of the challenge. It's a sort of sparring: no risk of harm as in actual combat, but skills are learned (and deficiencies revealed) in pursuing the dark arts of defense.
I would be fascinated and impressed by an example of undeniable spirit effect on the material substrate. However I hope you can understand that I would be very very picky about what constitutes undeniability. What keeps me gunshy is the extreme difficulty in correcting for human "psychomania", our startlingly promiscuous tendency to see spirit-action in unlikely material happenings. In my case, that is the target and challenge ... I would need to be convinced that I am not being led into one of the myriad culs-de-sac of apophenia, theism or simple revelatory declaration, "it's thus because I say so". cn
Well the best example I can give you is with the telepathy I, and many others, have experienced with my spiritual friend. The consistency of these experiences and how the same result occurs no matter what the situation or circumstance and with how many people experiencing the exact same thing with him. But I guess you cant take my word for it since it is subjective to a certain group of friends that have experienced it. I guess the argument can be made on your end that the telepathy is just a non-spiritual quality of the brain as well.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Well the best example I can give you is with the telepathy I, and many others, have experienced with my spiritual friend. The consistency of these experiences and how the same result occurs no matter what the situation or circumstance and with how many people experiencing the exact same thing with him. But I guess you cant take my word for it since it is subjective to a certain group of friends that have experienced it. I guess the argument can be made on your end that the telepathy is just a non-spiritual quality of the brain as well.
Yes; the argument could be made to the edification and delight of neither of us. I just do so wish that your consistent results were also portable ... to others, like myself. Then they could be studied, perhaps not scientifically but still with integrity and respect. cn
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
Spirituality and science are thought to be polar opposites of each other, do you agree? One cannot test the other, and looks down upon those that try, so it says its illogical to believe in it. The other one says it doesnt need the other because it only applies to physical reality and is useless in true reality.




So, there's physical reality and true reality? Physical reality (the one which we can see, hear, smell, touch and taste, the one in which we experience everything and the only one with empirical evidence) is the illusion, and your 'true reality' (that people imagine differently across time and cultures and we can't detect with our senses or any instruments), is real? I think you may be onto something here, Chief...
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
[/B]So, there's physical reality and true reality? Physical reality (the one which we can see, hear, smell, touch and taste, the one in which we experience everything and the only one with empirical evidence) is the illusion, and your 'true reality' (that people imagine differently across time and cultures and we can't detect with our senses or any instruments), is real? I think you may be onto something here, Chief...
Not my fight, but the ambulatory one was putting that up as one of the extremes.
Also, Hindus and Buddhists believe that the physical world is an illusion and obstruction from studying true reality. It is an interesting idea, one hard to expunge when it takes hold. It has memetic power. I want some cookies. cn
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
Not my fight, but the ambulatory one was putting that up as one of the extremes.
Also, Hindus and Buddhists believe that the physical world is an illusion and obstruction from studying true reality. It is an interesting idea, one hard to expunge when it takes hold. It has memetic power. I want some cookies. cn
I don't get the appeal. Great, now I want cookies. Glad they're in the physical world ;)
 

Chief Walkin Eagle

Well-Known Member
I look up long and often. I take tremendous pleasure in watching the deep sky. I have all sorts of astro hardware. It's quite emotional to know that the light from that smudge in the eyepiece has been under way since before there was life on land here. cn
And you never find anything out of the ordinary? Hmm, this puzzles me... I see something amazing almost every night. Be it a orb of light blink in and out of existence instantly, or a fixed object thought to be a star all of the sudden starts moving until it is out of site or blasts off into hyperspace. My sister sees these things, my friends see these things, I've talked to two guys on this site that see these things. I'm not even surprised anymore when I see it happen. What puzzles me is that you havent seen anything unusual during your star gazing. Is there a certain mindset you need have that doesnt involve mental trickery in order to see these things? Are the creators of these things selective to who gets to see them? Do these things only happen in certain parts of the world? If its just our imagination, why are people from different parts of the world describing the same thing? Tonight I will look up and ask for answers, maybe they'll listen lol.
 
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