Growdown! Mars Hydro vs Grow Lights Australia

cobshopgrow

Well-Known Member
true.

when i enter above text in google translate and translate from english to german and then back to english i get.
"DEN TRAUM VON DER ABSOLUTEN KONTROLLE WAHR WERDEN LASSEN" "GOTTMODUS AN"
and
"MAKE THE DREAM OF ABSOLUTE CONTROL COME TRUE" "GODMODE ON"
could had been so easy?
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
I see. I take it you get an exact performance value of a bin, or sub-bin, with each delivery? And that should also specify its behaviour in relation to forward voltage and temperature? In such case an honest calculation should come somewhat close, isn't it?

You been previously hinting that even sphere measurements aren't 100% exact. What exactly happens here, and how big could a distortion occur?
Hi mate, this post will be longer than usual, so please bear with me . . .

Yes, when we order Nichia diodes we get bin ranges within the upper or lower half or quartile. For example, when we were negotiating with Nichia to purchase their new Vitasolis range a couple of years ago we had them test a bunch of production samples to see the average output of what we would be getting.

The diode we wanted was NF2757GT-V3F1 Rvg0b – Vitasolis in 3000K. We were flexible with the colour bin, as colour accuracy is not as important (and can be a small advanatge in some respects, as it broads the spectrum). But we needed matching voltage bins and we wanted the highest efficiency production bins we could source.

This is not as easy as simply saying "Give us the top bin". You must compete with other companies for those bins, while some bins cannot be guaranteed for larger orders as there is simply not enough yield. This means that if you have 4 bins (hypothetical) and in every batch of LEDs the yield is spread: Bin1 = 20%, Bin2 = 40%, Bin 3 = 30%, Bin4 = 10% then you can see there is only 10% of production to go around for the top bin, while it is easier to be guaranteed lower bins – especially Bin 2 and lower, which makes up 60% of production.

If everyone wants Samsung LM301H diodes in 3000K, then everyone is competing for the top bins and there are fewer to go around.

However, we use Nichia diodes, so there is less competition. Plus, we have a long relationship with Nichia so they look after us. Plus, Nichia diodes are better than Samsung. For us, it's an easy decision to use them. Samsung are good at marketing, but those in the industry know that Nichia is the better company.

Getting back to our first Nichia Vitasolis order . . . The datasheet states that the top efficiancy bin in 3000K is P12 and that P12 is 36-42.8lm. That is the top, top bin and only a few percent of all diodes manufactured will be in this bin. We wanted a realistic figure of what to expect. So Nichia tested a batch for us and provided the results:

Nichia said:
Attached is the random sampling data for the Vitasolis LED for each lot of the LED. Generally all LED are at the rank of P11d43 as I saw from the sampling data, it is over 33 lumen all of them. I roughly calculate the brightness rage for each sub ranks as below, general guidelines:

P11d41 = 30.3-31.725lm
P11d42 = 31.725-33.15lm
P11d43 = 33.15-34.575lm
P11d44 = 34.575-36lm
The "d" designation is a quartile ranking. d41 = 1st quartile; d42 = 2nd quartile etc

We ended up with P11d43. It is important to remember that this is the MINIMUM efficiency ranking in each order. That means, NO diodes will be below P11d43 (less than 33.15lm) and that all of them will be at or above this range, including P12.

We paid a premium for these LEDs, and this was the highest efficiency bin that Nichia could promise us for the quantities that we needed in the matching voltage bins that we needed (within 0.1V). If we required larger quantities, then of course we would have to accept lower bins to make up the numbers.

Rememer also that Samsung and Nichia still have to find customers for those lower ranked bins – they can't just sell the top-ranked bins.

What do you think happens to those lower ranked bins?

In the end, our order had the designtaors: sm303, sm3050a, sm3050b, sm3050c, sm3050d, sm3050e, sm3050f/P11d43/K22/Rvg0b

sm3XXX = 3000K CCT bin
P11d43 = luminous flux bin (33.15+lm)
K22 = voltage bin (2.7-2.8V)
Rvg0b = overall CCT (3000K)

I hope that is not too much information for you! :oops:
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
You been previously hinting that even sphere measurements aren't 100% exact. What exactly happens here, and how big could a distortion occur?
Integrating sphere readings rely on the reflectance of the sphere coating and the calibration, as there is no such thing as a 100% reflective surface, so you need to know the average reflectance and you also need to calibrate your reading against a known entity.

Some of the issues happen as the sphere ages and the reflective surface deteriorates and the machine is not regularly calibrated to compensate for this. Mostly it's human error. But you can also play with calibrations to give higher readings than may be true.

We call Chinese spheres "happy spheres" because when LED Teknik tests a fixture on the goniometer he usually ends up with readings 5-10% lower than the Chinese readings.

It's a bit like building a performance engine and putting it on a dyno. You may get a high dyno reading and be happy, but when you go to the track and your 1/4 mile times show you have 10% less horsepower than the dyno reading, you won't be very happy!
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member

"MAKEING THE DREAM OF ABSOLUTE CONTROL COME REAL"

"GOD MODE ON"

Always is so funny when snake oil salesmanship is improperly translated into English. Don't usually see this from Germany though. As a German myself I'd like to apologize. I think this is just one bad apple (of which we've admittedly had a couple.)
I don't want to rip on the company too much because it is clear that ishimoto does not represent that company.

At least I HOPE he doesn't represent that company. If he does, they are in big trouble! o_O
 

ichimoto

Active Member
Ofcourse I don't represent that company...just bought a led from that company.
But I see you are going on crying.......but you fired me?
So what you want?
 

Scuzzman

Well-Known Member
bloody good thread thread regarding grow off between the Grow Lights Australia LED and the Mars LED( supplied by out side source)n really looking towards the out come of the test on the buds not that it really means much..
Very good info regarding the top Bins and so forth , explained in layman terms as they say ....:bigjoint:
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Ofcourse I don't represent that company...just bought a led from that company.
But I see you are going on crying.......but you fired me?
So what you want?
You are not a man of honour?

You accused me of working for Mars Hydro when I am a test grower and designer for Grow Lights Australia.

You agreed to leave this thread after falsely accusing me of something I did not say.

I was actually defending the German company you bought your light off, even though there are some here who think you may work for them. Because if you do work for them, then it does not leave a very good impression on Crescience.

So, I won't mention you again if you keep your word and leave. Simple. I'm a man of my word.
 
interesting read, did the lab return the results to you? Im contemplating whether to start growing again, the industry has moved so far from my day it's a little overwhelming to be honest!
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
interesting read, did the lab return the results to you? Im contemplating whether to start growing again, the industry has moved so far from my day it's a little overwhelming to be honest!
Hi mate, trying to get it organised today. Sorry, things are not simple in Australia as the type of testing we do is still not legal, so we have to go through underground channels to get our test results.

@Prawn Connery any word on when the 420 strips will be available? Those looked hella nice and I’m trying decide whether to buy boards now or wait
@Grow Lights Australia is banging his head against a wall at the moment as shipping delays mean he has been out of stock for almost two months now and the raw materials, including PCBs and heatsinks, still have not been delivered. I know we have prototypes ready to go but we can't do anything in terms of production without the PCBs. Once we have those we will be good, but I can't even give you an ETA in the mean time until this shipment arrives. So sorry.
 

Comparator

Well-Known Member

Comparator

Well-Known Member
Integrating sphere readings rely on the reflectance of the sphere coating and the calibration, as there is no such thing as a 100% reflective surface, so you need to know the average reflectance and you also need to calibrate your reading against a known entity.

Some of the issues happen as the sphere ages and the reflective surface deteriorates and the machine is not regularly calibrated to compensate for this. Mostly it's human error. But you can also play with calibrations to give higher readings than may be true.

We call Chinese spheres "happy spheres" because when LED Teknik tests a fixture on the goniometer he usually ends up with readings 5-10% lower than the Chinese readings.

It's a bit like building a performance engine and putting it on a dyno. You may get a high dyno reading and be happy, but when you go to the track and your 1/4 mile times show you have 10% less horsepower than the dyno reading, you won't be very happy!
Just wanted to say I enjoyed the read as usual. Your very thorough, no B.S., transparent & even explained things most companies go to great efforts to fib about. Great examination of the Mars. That went as expected. Great insights on the quality & extra mile GLA puts in. You guys are so close. You could figure it out tomorrow, it could take two more yrs. I'd figure it out now with all the copying going round. Let's just say we use a similar spd yet there's huge differences in yeilds, terps/cannabonoids & thc higher then they say possible with uvb. What many dint understand is violet is actually w/I the active par range. Making this short wavelengths so strong as they photosynthisize, stress, and can even damage pretty bad. From what I know about UVA/UVB+violet, I chose violet for my safety increase, longevity, performance, results, & most importantly, its slightly more forgiving, allowing the grower to correct. I'd put it against uvb / uva all day on a wager. That's how confident I am. If a company bothered to actually do some R+D they'd know this too. But as I'm sure you're aware (because GLA did NOT take this route) 98% of the lights out are just replicas of the next being piggy backed for an over night etl & absolutely NO thought needs to go into it. Allot cheaper to make. Just slap a sticker on a pre-existing lamp. Maybe add 10 diodes a bar increase the length by 3" & call it a Daddy long leg or far-red, eBar. Lol! Whatever dumb shit they do to claim different. That's why when I see a sbs of to equally efficiently lamps with the same or close spd, I always have to ask WHY? What are you hoping to achieve? And when one gets an once or two over exactly the same looking, testing pott, they actually still get excited n share their results and recomend the winner. Oh my..
. Uvb + A should be incorporated into a true full spectrum light but as with anything, it needs to be used in gentle moderation. That crap only works for te Sun.
 
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TheHouseOfGreen420

Active Member
Hi mate, trying to get it organised today. Sorry, things are not simple in Australia as the type of testing we do is still not legal, so we have to go through underground channels to get our test results.


@Grow Lights Australia is banging his head against a wall at the moment as shipping delays mean he has been out of stock for almost two months now and the raw materials, including PCBs and heatsinks, still have not been delivered. I know we have prototypes ready to go but we can't do anything in terms of production without the PCBs. Once we have those we will be good, but I can't even give you an ETA in the mean time until this shipment arrives. So sorry.
there's 420 strips on the way? I need to know more, where is the info surrounding this?

Cheers
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
there's 420 strips on the way? I need to know more, where is the info surrounding this?

Cheers
There are. GLA has something like 1000 strip PCBs in the current shipment and some prototypes ready for assembly. The shipping issue has put him behind. The strips are 48V and are designed to be driven at 30-70W each and will mount to standard 50mm (2") T-slot. The spectrum is the same as the 420 boards.
 

MidnightSun72

Well-Known Member
There are. GLA has something like 1000 strip PCBs in the current shipment and some prototypes ready for assembly. The shipping issue has put him behind. The strips are 48V and are designed to be driven at 30-70W each and will mount to standard 50mm (2") T-slot. The spectrum is the same as the 420 boards.
Man I am so excited to see these.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Just wanted to say I enjoyed the read as usual. Your very thorough, no B.S., transparent & even explained things most companies go to great efforts to fib about. Great examination of the Mars. That went as expected. Great insights on the quality & extra mile GLA puts in. You guys are so close. You could figure it out tomorrow, it could take two more yrs. I'd figure it out now with all the copying going round. Let's just say we use a similar spd yet there's huge differences in yeilds, terps/cannabonoids & thc higher then they say possible with uvb. What many dint understand is violet is actually w/I the active par range. Making this short wavelengths so strong as they photosynthisize, stress, and can even damage pretty bad. From what I know about UVA/UVB+violet, I chose violet for my safety increase, longevity, performance, results, & most importantly, its slightly more forgiving, allowing the grower to correct. I'd put it against uvb / uva all day on a wager. That's how confident I am. If a company bothered to actually do some R+D they'd know this too. But as I'm sure you're aware (because GLA did NOT take this route) 98% of the lights out are just replicas of the next being piggy backed for an over night etl & absolutely NO thought needs to go into it. Allot cheaper to make. Just slap a sticker on a pre-existing lamp. Maybe add 10 diodes a bar increase the length by 3" & call it a Daddy long leg or far-red, eBar. Lol! Whatever dumb shit they do to claim different. That's why when I see a sbs of to equally efficiently lamps with the same or close spd, I always have to ask WHY? What are you hoping to achieve? And when one gets an once or two over exactly the same looking, testing pott, they actually still get excited n share their results and recomend the winner. Oh my..
. Uvb + A should be incorporated into a true full spectrum light but as with anything, it needs to be used in gentle moderation. That crap only works for te Sun.
You are spot on. The reason we use 405nm diodes is mutli-faceted. Firstly, the Nichia 405nm diode we use is over 70% efficient – the most efficient UVA diode on the market. Secondly, 405nm is in the active PAR range – very few LED lights on the market include violet light under 440-450nm, and yet they still call themselves "full spectrum" when they are not. Thirdly, 405nm bleeds into UVA , but is at the higher (longer wave-length) end of the UV spectrum so is not as damaging to plants or humans. It also bleeds into the 420-430nm range, which is where Chlorophyll A peaks.

From the trials we have done comparing UVB to UVA to high-end UVA/Violet, we've been able to get higher THC concentrations by using a longer-wavelength UV for a longer period of time and still maintain yields. The trick to UV is that while it stresses the plant into producing more secondary metabolites (terpenes, cannabinoids) it also breaks those same compounds down by accelerating oxidation. The sun only ramps up UVB for a few hours in the middle of the day, and for the rest of the day the UV index is either rising (morning) or falling (afternoon). But you can acheive the same or better results by simply using wavelengths with less energy for longer periods. By using 405nm for 12 hours at a time you are contributing to photosynthesis as well as producing a mild stress reponse in the plant and it can all be done on one circuit using one driver for simplicity and reduced cost.

We have also found that there is a trade-off between yield and quality the more you shift away from the red spectrum towards the blue/violet/UV range. There are always trade-offs, but it is possible to reach a good compromise.

As for the grow-off, I'm not that upset by these results. We gave the Mars a couple of advantages going into the test to not only make it fair, but to see if we could "come from behind" and still beat it, which we did. It proves a couple of things: that PPFD for PPFD, a better spectrum can increase yield and quality; bar lights have no real advantage over a smaller footprint fixture (within reason) mounted higher; that a lower CCT fixture (3100K) can produce more compact plants with denser buds than a higher CCT (3700K) fixture; and that most LEDs will still grow decent plants.

The grow could have been better, too, so it would be interesting to see the results from a more experienced grower. When I have a bit more space I'd like to try this myself. I have the advantage of having access to a good PAR meter and I know I can also get more than a pound per light from most strains. But it is what it is. All I know is the grower was offered the Mars light at the end of the grow and politely declined, lol!
 

Brettman

Well-Known Member
The comparison was obviously biased towards your own lights (I know you said this). As for the stretching and uneven canopy under the Mars, do you think the grower maybe didn’t care for them as much? Even subconsciously?

They end product looks identical to me.
 
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