THC, CBD, Terpene test results – UVA vs UVB vs none

ChiefRunningPhist

Well-Known Member
not sure about this next thing imma say but I read this somewhere the uvr8 when activated helps reduce stretch im not sure about this one but would be cool to know if it does or not.
Ill have to look it up again as well lol, but I seem to remeber that FR and Blue were offsetting R, or idk lol, @PhatNuggz mentioned "stable" and that resonated, I thought that there were 2 groups of light working together to offset another but I can't remember exactly. We're adding 6500k to our HPS the first few weeks of bloom to try to mitigate stretch. I'm pretty certain higher energy does reduce stretch (our higher CCT's are always more compact), but ill have to post some research or links.
 
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hybridway2

Amare Shill
Well I disagree about the feasibility aspect (LED lights are often times over $1K!), as well as wanting to call UVA an equivalent (when so much more UVA is needed). There is scientific papers done by research experts describing UVR8 and HY5 transcription which is centered ~295nm.

I do agree that 380nm to 440nm is typically missing, as well as 470nm - 490nm. Chlorophyll B is pretty narrow around 450nm, so typical LED is good for chlorophyll b, but there's lots of photoreceptors with wider absorption bands, which means if all the WV's were present, like under the sun, these other absorptive bands would be absorbing more energy to trigger morphological responses. The sun emits more 480nm than 450nm but our LED have almost no 480nm. I'm sure you've noticed a difference in your pants under fluoro compared to LED? Fluoro have peaks in 480nm-ish and 405nm-ish (WV lacking from LED), and I think are big reasons why.

EDIT:
If you've downloaded the SPD simulator I posted, there's a sheet at the bottom called "HY5" (I think), but its a page calculating which WV (between 280nm and 3 something I can't remember) triggers HY5 expression more so. I think it was the 280nm but not by a whole lot. 295nm want calculated but looks like it's be ~double the effectiveness but 295nm are expensive though :/
I'll have to find your SPD simulator download. Would love to use one.
I know more about growing under leds with 470nm then i do w/o, but i get your drift, have used both in SBS's & see the differences. Bag appeal & terps stand out the most in my mind. Oh, and better for full cycle growing IMO.
Yeah, my first leds were CXB Cobs w/ a surrounding 5 w mono array including 65k, 730nm, 470nm, & 630nm, the UVB T-8 In the middle, now with 660 too making it The Canna-Spec instead of the Equetorial spec.
Regarding the Cob fixtures, bar spectrums are a lil different.
I just feel we will get the 20% thc increase w/o the uvb.
 
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hybridway2

Amare Shill
Back in 2014, when I had a popular thread on IC (the early days of spectrum blending,I was using HOT5 mixing aquarium bulbs prior to hooking up with Nick from the BML, I don't recall the dudes name but he posted that 630 provides 95% of what 660 does, but the 630 is stable (I presume compared to the 660s available at that time).

I didn't buy into Victors use of the UV bulb incorporated into his Solar Eclipse because it was not on a timer. I never got around to incorporating a reptile fixture into my BML SPYDR 600, but have excellent grows without it. That said, if there was significant proof that it is well worth the added expense I would (are you listening Humple?)
Seriously? I love it & it is on its own channel so yeah, mine has always been on a timer.
Do you have the SE-450?
X3 switches bro (monos, cobs, UVB) & x2 outlets. One for led power in & the other for UVB power cord in.
Still my favorite light i own.
 

hybridway2

Amare Shill
Uh, I don't. Sharing my view does not equal "taking offense". You just insinuate that I do.

I have. I didn't say it wasn't friendly. I think you're reaching now. I didn't think I was unclear.

Why are you asking me? These would be questions for you to answer, not me. "Good enough to shut me up?"...What? Haha

Me too! Who said they shouldn't? I didn't. But now it's like you're suggesting that "I (or someone) disagrees with this statement". Like a straw man of some sort. Nobody made that argument. It's almost like you're responding to some comment other than the one I posted.

Also, what are the false claims being made here by GLA, Prawn..? Absolutely, point those out. Or maybe you're generalizing. I don't know who these (fictional) people are though, who think or have voiced that venders should not be accountable for their claims. Haha. Wasn't me.

I thought my wording/comment was clear, and just my view. It's almost like you're responding based on how it made you feel, and not the actual content.
I'm not saying you can't participate in discourse. And it's good to be "skeptical" and all that, I'm the same. If you want to know what I actually was saying, just re-read my actual comment.

(Btw, some of these "?'s"/questions are rhetorical. I don't expect a back and forth and I'm done now. I'm not trying to "attack" you. I respect your input.)

Back to the data and topic :)
Peace.
Well said & respectful. Agreed.
I like you Humble but he's got a point.
 

hybridway2

Amare Shill
Ill have to look it up again as well lol, but I seem to remeber that FR and Blue were offsetting R, or idk lol, someone mentioned "stable" and that resonated, I thought that there were 2 groups of light working together to offset another but I can't remember exactly. We're adding 6500k to our HPS the first few weeks of bloom to try to mitigate stretch. I'm pretty certain higher energy does reduce stretch (our higher CCT's are always more compact), but ill have to post some research or links.
Pr/prf
Explains it in the Hydro farm videos i posted on my Bar-8 thread about IR.
 

2com

Well-Known Member
I hope its ok to ask here.
But when it comes to spectrum (full, balanced, not "lacking" in things) what lighting product, regardless of technology (led, hid, plasma, whatever)..
1) Are you guys using?
2) Do you guys recommend?

If you were to go out right now, and 'money ain't a thang' (within reason please, $10K for a 4x4 or something isn't within reason, haha.)
White only LED doesn't have me satisfied (anymore).

I think know what @Prawn Connery is using ;) I know what @hybridway2 is using ;) What are the rest of you guys running in your gardens, @ChiefRunningPhist, @Humple, @Kassiopeija?

I'll trade some some 288 V2s for some High Lights to try'em out - just kidding. Haha. I love HLG, no disrespect - I'm sure they know that, it's all I've used LED wise so far, and all I've "built"/assembled for other people. Hahaha.
Maybe I just need to supplement. I've thought about their far red, uva, and the qb35(?) in various colors... I've even gone to considering adding cmh to current LEDs/QBs.
 

ChiefRunningPhist

Well-Known Member
I hope its ok to ask here.
But when it comes to spectrum (full, balanced, not "lacking" in things) what lighting product, regardless of technology (led, hid, plasma, whatever)..
1) Are you guys using?
2) Do you guys recommend?

If you were to go out right now, and 'money ain't a thang' (within reason please, $10K for a 4x4 or something isn't within reason, haha.)
White only LED doesn't have me satisfied (anymore).

I think know what @Prawn Connery is using ;) I know what @hybridway2 is using ;) What are the rest of you guys running in your gardens, @ChiefRunningPhist, @Humple, @Kassiopeija?

I'll trade some some 288 V2s for some High Lights to try'em out - just kidding. Haha. I love HLG, no disrespect - I'm sure they know that, it's all I've used LED wise so far, and all I've "built"/assembled for other people. Hahaha.
Maybe I just need to supplement. I've thought about their far red, uva, and the qb35(?) in various colors... I've even gone to considering adding cmh to current LEDs/QBs.
We use HPS for bigger grows bloom (really want to try CMH, just haven't yet), and LED (blend of 2700K 3500K 6500K UV, a few mono reds on some tent boards) for tent blooms atm, I supplement UV by way of reptile bulbs in the tents and don't supplement UV for the HPS. Until my project is finished this is what we'll be using. I veg everything under LED 6500K for bigger grows, and (~3000K + 6500k) for tents. Not running any EOD FR atm or any FR supplemental. I want to try all sorts of things and dont think these are the primo SPDs to mimic, just what works until I can play with spectrum more easily.

I think the highligt boards do a good job of valueing a wide SPD. I think the added NUV is awesome, I think the wider R into FR is also beneficial. I think the photon efficacy is very good especially when you take into account the extra short WV included in the SPD. I think the chip count is good as it improves lifespan, efficiency, and spread (size). Ill continue to reccomend.

I think 480nm is important based on my reading but don't really know as I'm not a botanist. Theres only a few chips that value 480nm that I know of atm, most all others have a dip in this region. 480nm is hard to produce for mono or for PC and either one has crap efficiency. The LM302n, or the 5K opti, or the Marubeni 5k, all have poor efficiency. The best cyan mono I can find is like 42% efficiency, the 505nm is really bad (25%) :shock: Lol

I think UVB is important but I also think UVA is important, but again I'm not a botanist. Just based on experience and the literature.

I think IR is something of a wild card and really the only WV that LED can't mimic atm. With IR your LST increases without your ambient. This is significant imo and has implications to VPD (which I have some opinions on as well lol, essentially I think localized leaf VPD is different than above canopy VPD) and maybe other plant processes as well???
 
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hybridway2

Amare Shill
We use HPS for bigger grows bloom (really want to try CMH, just haven't yet), and LED (blend of 2700K 3500K 6500K UV, a few mono reds on some tent boards) for tent blooms atm, I supplement UV by way of reptile bulbs in the tents and don't supplement UV for the HPS. Until my project is finished this is what we'll be using. I veg everything under LED 6500K for bigger grows, and (~3000K + 6500k) for tents. Not running any EOD FR atm or any FR supplemental. I want to try all sorts of things and dont think these are the primo SPDs to mimic, just what works until I can play with spectrum more easily.


I think the highligt boards do a good job of valueing a wide SPD. I think the added NUV is awesome, I think the wider R into FR is also beneficial. I think the photon efficacy is very good especially when you take into account the extra short WV included in the SPD. I think the chip count is good as it improves lifespan, efficiency, and spread (size). Ill continue to reccomend.

I think 480nm is important based on my reading but don't really know as I'm not a botanist. Theres only a few chips that value 480nm that I know of atm, most all others have a dip in this region. 480nm is hard to produce for mono or for PC and either one has crap efficiency. The LM302n, or the 5K opti, or the Marubeni 5k, all have poor efficiency. The best cyan mono I can find is like 25% efficiency I think :shock: Lol

I think UVB is important but I also think UVA is important, but again I'm not a botanist. Just based on experience and the literature.

I think IR is something of a wild card and really the only WV that LED can't mimic atm. With IR your LST increases without your ambient. This is significant imo and has implications to VPD (which I have some opinions on as well lol, essentially I think localized leaf VPD is different than above canopy VPD) and maybe other plant processes as well???
The videos i mentioned earlier helped me understand how the actual color or 730 nm diode used that makes the spectrum, excites the leaf cells causing a friction of these cells, hence heating up the leaf. Similar to how a microwave works.
Prior to that i was not exactly sure how that all worked.. i was saying stuff like "i think the FR is important to the spectrum to create synergistic responses in conjunction with other nm's but do not see how it adds to leaf temp increases beyond ambient"
Now i understand how & why a little FR/IR can go a Long way as for triggering leaf temp increases as well a the Synergistic plant responses.
Not trying to clutter with videos here but peep it if you haven't. Very Simple Approach to explaining the FR functions.

Here are a few examples of IR added LEDs, an absorption chart & x2 Spectrums.
Wish i could share the new spectrums with you guys. Shit pisses me off. Anyways.
Chart A (outdated will find the newer one in my gallery:20200221_093148.jpg
Medical (older one too) Curve20200221_093058.jpgTruth Led20190804_153854.jpgAmares original Equatorial in the very beginning. 20200221_122330.jpg
 
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ChiefRunningPhist

Well-Known Member
The videos i mentioned earlier helped me understand how the actual color or 730 nm diode used that makes the spectrum, excites the leaf cells causing a friction of these cells, hence heating up the leaf. Similar to how a microwave works.
Prior to that i was not exactly sure how that all worked.. i was saying stuff like "i think the FR is important to the spectrum to create synergistic responses in conjunction with other nm's but do not see how it adds to leaf temp increases beyond ambient"
Now i understand how & why a little FR/IR can go a Long way as for triggering leaf temp increases as well a the Synergistic plant responses.
Not trying to clutter with videos here but peep it if you haven't. Very Simple Approach to explaining the FR functions.
Thanks man. IR is different than FR. I understand the Pr/Pfr relationship when it comes to photoperiodsm. Ill have to take a peek to see what you're describing. IR isn't absorbed for photosythesis it only adds energy to the leaf which heats up and then re-emits it back. At least I've not seen anything saying it's used photosynthetically. Increased temp is due to molecules having increased energy and moving more, the increased collisions result in friction which produces IR as a byproduct. When the kinetic energy is transformed and released as IR the molecules total energy diminishes and it then slows down. This is just physics and happens with all energy absorbed by any material, not limited to plant leaves. I'm guessing its what the vid you're referencing is getting at, but I'll take a peek. PM me the link if you don't mind.
 

Grow Lights Australia

Well-Known Member
Australian, have you seen other whites that include 380-450nm? Last yr. I remember seeing at least x3 or x4. Some of which had quite a bit more below 450 then the Optisolis's & one had a chunk from 380-410 more then the others. Wish i remembered the names. Optisolis's were of the highest electrical efficiency amongst them though.

So your boards are a Broad Red 35kish 90cri Nichias with interweaving strips of 5k Optisolis's? Makes a Highlight Board?
Sorry if i missed that. Sure its old info.

I dig these. Didn't i see something about it not being an extra fee to send to the US of A? Maybe i could get some for a 4x4 before this next run in about 10-14 days?
Sound possible if i order now?
@Grow Lights Australia, am i blocked or something? Can't @ you? Hu!!!!.
Holla!
Yes there are some other purple pump midpower diodes out there (and COBS too) which go into the <450 range. I know the main ones PC looked at early on were Yuji Led (VTC), Nichia (Optisolis 5000+K), Seoul Semiconductor (Sunlike) and I think there were some other Chinese manufacturers also making knockoffs or their own versions but they weren't very efficient or maybe just an unknown quantity.

Yuji Led has even got a new LED coming out that is from 340-900nm! Check this out and scroll to the end of the page. It is model number "YJ-VTC-2835-Q-370405" and it is 5300K - https://www.yujiintl.com/index.php?c=show&id=135

We really liked the Yuji Leds because they have a 405nm pump and they are good quality. But they are also expensive – very expensive compared to Nichia and SSC. They also only make 2835 and 5730 LEDs. The 2835 is 90mA max and the 5730 is 150mA max.

Nichia 5000K and 6500K come in 3030 but are only 100mA max and are also a 420nm pump.

SSC originally had a 405nm pump, 3030 and 150mA so it was in the Goldilocks zone – just right. Using SSC diodes meant we could swap them on the board with Nichia Optisolis 2700K to make the High Red boards with no other changes as they are both 150mA LEDs and have the same footprint.

405nm was our preferred pump so that was perfect. But then SSC went and changed the design of the Sunlike and replaced the 405nm pump with a 415nm epi. We were all pissed off because they didn't tell us! Also Koreans are fucking hard to deal with. We have had a lot of problems with dealing with SSC that we don't have with Nichia. Nichia are awesome to deal with. Japanese don't fuck you around like Koreans do. I am generalising but I have heard stories from PC about his time in Korea and he said they are exactly the same to deal with in Korea as we have been dealing with SSC. I won't say any more about Koreans in case his wife reads this ;) She knows I love her too :)

So that's how we ended up with SSC instead of Nichia or Yuji LED.

Our boards are 2700K Nichia V3F1 (300x) 2700K Optisolis (90x) and 6500K Sunlike (60x). The High Red boards simply swap the Sunlike for Optisolis (150x). I need to correct @Prawn Connery in one of his other posts as the two boards have similar efficiency, so that tells us the Optisolis and Sunlike are both similar efficiency. The Optisolis are a fraction more efficient than the Sunlike. We did not test the individual diodes, they were calculated using SPD and QER. That's where the umol/j figures came from. The Sunlike should be in the 2.2 umol/j range and the Optisolis in the 2.2-2.3 umol/j range.

Even though SSC changed from a 405nm pump to a 415nm – which they did to copy Nichia (420nm pump – Koreans are always copying LOL!) – the Sunlike got a boost in efficiency. We also get the top flux bins from them and pay a premium for it.

If you want boards hit me up. We are running low on stock because of the Chinese New Year holiday and coronavirus. We have run out of single heatsinks and have only a few UV boards left. We have LEDs and connectors for a new run of High Light boards but are waiting on PCBs from China. The boards are assembled here in Australia.

Overseas buyers pay no tax (less 10% of posted prices). We also give a 10% discount to RIU and some other forum members as we try to look after the same communities who look after us. There are also bulk discounts if you buy 4 or more boards. We have DHL now, so bulk shipping can be cheaper but for smaller items Australia Post is still cheapest.
 

Grow Lights Australia

Well-Known Member
That's pretty good, perhaps look into the 3030 Marubeni 5000K if you're not already familiar.
LED Teknik reckons Marubeni also have the "best" spectrum (his words) but he says they are also very expensive and have large MOQs. We have not looked into them.

This is the spectrum. It is very nice and also has a 420-425nm pump.

MarubeniSunlight-Graph1.jpg


Here is a comparison of the Marubeni 6500K (top) and the Sunlike 6500K we use. We already have plenty of red and green from the Nichias, so we wanted the blue and near-UV from the Sunlike to blend with them. As you can see, apart from the 425nm pump vs 415nm, they are not are not too far apart. The SPD chart from Seoul Semi shows the Sunlike peaks at 414nm.

Screen Shot 2020-02-22 at 16.54.57.png

Screen Shot 2019-04-30 at 16.16.35.png
 

Grow Lights Australia

Well-Known Member
OK, so many posts to address. I will try to answer what I can as best as I can.

threads like this make me miss Randomblame. He would be all up in this bitch for sure lol.....i truly hope hes doing well, off seeing the world. Hes one of the good ones.


Good thread everyone, lots of great info, most i cant even understand....i just wanna grow bro
Yes I miss his posts too. There was always a lot of information in them and no ego. That is rare.
 

hybridway2

Amare Shill
Yes there are some other purple pump midpower diodes out there (and COBS too) which go into the <450 range. I know the main ones PC looked at early on were Yuji Led (VTC), Nichia (Optisolis 5000+K), Seoul Semiconductor (Sunlike) and I think there were some other Chinese manufacturers also making knockoffs or their own versions but they weren't very efficient or maybe just an unknown quantity.

Yuji Led has even got a new LED coming out that is from 340-900nm! Check this out and scroll to the end of the page. It is model number "YJ-VTC-2835-Q-370405" and it is 5300K - https://www.yujiintl.com/index.php?c=show&id=135

We really liked the Yuji Leds because they have a 405nm pump and they are good quality. But they are also expensive – very expensive compared to Nichia and SSC. They also only make 2835 and 5730 LEDs. The 2835 is 90mA max and the 5730 is 150mA max.

Nichia 5000K and 6500K come in 3030 but are only 100mA max and are also a 420nm pump.

SSC originally had a 405nm pump, 3030 and 150mA so it was in the Goldilocks zone – just right. Using SSC diodes meant we could swap them on the board with Nichia Optisolis 2700K to make the High Red boards with no other changes as they are both 150mA LEDs and have the same footprint.

405nm was our preferred pump so that was perfect. But then SSC went and changed the design of the Sunlike and replaced the 405nm pump with a 415nm epi. We were all pissed off because they didn't tell us! Also Koreans are fucking hard to deal with. We have had a lot of problems with dealing with SSC that we don't have with Nichia. Nichia are awesome to deal with. Japanese don't fuck you around like Koreans do. I am generalising but I have heard stories from PC about his time in Korea and he said they are exactly the same to deal with in Korea as we have been dealing with SSC. I won't say any more about Koreans in case his wife reads this ;) She knows I love her too :)

So that's how we ended up with SSC instead of Nichia or Yuji LED.

Our boards are 2700K Nichia V3F1 (300x) 2700K Optisolis (90x) and 6500K Sunlike (60x). The High Red boards simply swap the Sunlike for Optisolis (150x). I need to correct @Prawn Connery in one of his other posts as the two boards have similar efficiency, so that tells us the Optisolis and Sunlike are both similar efficiency. The Optisolis are a fraction more efficient than the Sunlike. We did not test the individual diodes, they were calculated using SPD and QER. That's where the umol/j figures came from. The Sunlike should be in the 2.2 umol/j range and the Optisolis in the 2.2-2.3 umol/j range.

Even though SSC changed from a 405nm pump to a 415nm – which they did to copy Nichia (420nm pump – Koreans are always copying LOL!) – the Sunlike got a boost in efficiency. We also get the top flux bins from them and pay a premium for it.

If you want boards hit me up. We are running low on stock because of the Chinese New Year holiday and coronavirus. We have run out of single heatsinks and have only a few UV boards left. We have LEDs and connectors for a new run of High Light boards but are waiting on PCBs from China. The boards are assembled here in Australia.

Overseas buyers pay no tax (less 10% of posted prices). We also give a 10% discount to RIU and some other forum members as we try to look after the same communities who look after us. There are also bulk discounts if you buy 4 or more boards. We have DHL now, so bulk shipping can be cheaper but for smaller items Australia Post is still cheapest.
Thank you for the detailed response. Covered all my questions.
Ill hyu!
 

Grow Lights Australia

Well-Known Member
You hit on something important for the question of "balance": GLA feels that balance is achieved by matching - as closely as possible - full-spectrum sunlight, while you feel that it contains too much UVB. On the one hand, using the sun as the baseline for the concept of a balanced spectrum makes perfect sense, however, there are arguments to be made that we can improve on that spectrum - at least for growing weed. So the question becomes "Do we balance our lights' spectrum to match sunlight or do we balance it to maximize garden performance indoors?" Or by doing the first do we accomplish the second? Some would say yes, some would say no.
So we all know that sunlight is not static. If you are not a botanist, like me, then you tend to rely on correlation. For example, if we see cannabis growing and evolving in high-UV areas – which it does and did – and we know that UV breaks down cannabinoids and we have also read scientific theories that cannabinoids evolved as a way to protect the plants from UV and plant pests, then it might seem obvious that more UV is beneficial.

But the question is, UV spans quite a wide range from around 280nm for UVB to 400nm. So should we give our plants the same ratio as the sun (small amounts of UVB grading to larger amounts of UVA), or is it enough to give them part of that spectrum to get the desired results? And what about the end-grower? Does he or she need to manage that UV by using stronger wavelengths (UVB) with timers to again mimic the sun (UVB is a bell curve that is highest at midday in summer) or is it sufficient to apply a small amount of weaker UV (UVA. near-UV) over a 12-hour period to prevent the risk of UV damage to their plants and make life easier for the grower to manage?

Now let's look at the red spectrum. Should we be providing more red to mimic the sun during autumn when cannabis flowers? Do we recognise that the sun is typically "redder" at the equator where cannabis evolved because the atmosphere is thicker around the equator? Do sativas respond better to red light for this reason compared to indicas which evolved in mountainous regions where the atmosphere is thinner, so there is more blue as well as UV in the spectrum?

Are we going around in circles with the "red for flowering, blue for quality" argument again? :wall: < Joke

As far as I am aware, NASA tried to answer this question with their spectrum tests in the 80s that are still ongoing. The objective was to create the highest yield with the least amount of energy. That meant lots of red light (least amount of energy to produce). But plants did not grow very well under just red light, so blue was added. This was better but as the pants grew, wouldn't it be better to have a bit of light reflecting into the lower canopy? Like green?

This is pretty much what happened, and so the results of at least one NASA test (and I believe there were more, but the link below provides a good start) found a ratio of B=15% G=25% R=60% and a small amount of FR provided the best dry yields.

This is the NASA test and a great comparison of different lighting results on lettuce for anyone interested: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20170010694.pdf

The only issue is this is lettuce, not flowering cannabis – as you have already pointed out Humple. But maybe we could all to point to the leaf areas of those tests and say "Hey, bigger leaf surface area = more photosynthesis = more yield" and that was what the results proved. So shouldn't a plant that produces flowers also be able to use a larger leaf surface area to provide energy for flowering? If that is the case then the photomorphogenic response to red (bigger, thinner leaves, longer stems and petioles that allow light to filter through the whole canopy) would be desired.

Who knows, maybe that is why mother nature also provides more red during flower. Or is it the other way around? That plants simply evolved that way because that's how mother nature works? See, we can still learn a lot from mother nature. That doesn't mean exactly mimicking the sun IMO but using lessons learned from how plants respond to different forms of sunlight at different times of day and year and in different parts of the world to make growing as efficient as possible. I think that's what NASA is also trying to do.
 

Grow Lights Australia

Well-Known Member
Well I disagree about the feasibility aspect (LED lights are often times over $1K!), as well as wanting to call UVA an equivalent (when so much more UVA is needed). There is scientific papers done by research experts describing UVR8 and HY5 transcription which is centered ~295nm.

I do agree that 380nm to 440nm is typically missing, as well as 470nm - 490nm. Chlorophyll B is pretty narrow around 450nm, so typical LED is good for chlorophyll b, but there's lots of photoreceptors with wider absorption bands, which means if all the WV's were present, like under the sun, these other absorptive bands would be absorbing more energy to trigger morphological responses. The sun emits more 480nm than 450nm but our LED have almost no 480nm. I'm sure you've noticed a difference in your pants under fluoro compared to LED? Fluoro have peaks in 480nm-ish and 405nm-ish (WV lacking from LED), and I think are big reasons why.

EDIT:
If you've downloaded the SPD simulator I posted, there's a sheet at the bottom called "HY5" (I think), but its a page calculating which WV (between 280nm and 3 something I can't remember) triggers HY5 expression more so. I think it was the 280nm that was the winner over the 3 something, but not by a whole lot. 295nm wasn't calculated but looks like it'd be ~double the effectiveness, though 295nm are expensive! :/
Sometimes it comes down to practicalities. We have not built a heavy UVB lamp, but I'm sure there would be added expense not just with the UV LEDs and their short lifespan, but possibly getting it through health authorities. Perhaps ~295nm is the most efficient or can trigger certain photomorphogenic response, but if we can do the same or at least similar with other wavelengths, that would be more practical and cost-efficient.

Sometimes you just have to draw a line in the sand and say "This is the best compromise for the price and for most growers who do not wish to have multiple timers and light sources and spend an extraordinary amount of time managing every facet of their grow". You guys are right there already playing with this stuff but in my dealings with average growers the majority just want good yields, good quality and to set and forget their lights so they can get on with other things. Sorry, this wasn't really addressing your post I just made a comment. Apologies.
 

Grow Lights Australia

Well-Known Member
Well I think a plant builds up secondairy metabolites which then can absorb said radiation before it damages cellwalls or DNA of the inner plant structure. Perhaps cannabinoids are a part of this shield - at least its proven that they'll get broken down by UV radiation, and that a plant subsequently refills it, making Trichs longer.

Outside the UV delivered to a plant is not qually distributed at all. It varies greatly day by day. And there's surely more UV when the sun is at the zenith than low above the horizon. So a few strong hours indoors seems, well, at least natural, and would give a plant some more time to initiate repair or refilling processes.

I've already seen plants that were accidently wasted due to a bad controller - UV clf shined whole night - sunburnt as you've never seen, a complete tent nearly lost, bleached and dried out leaves that crumbled to dust upon touch... I've seen this outdoor, too, esp. when vegging indoors under non-UV emitting light - all leaves get bleached white, fall off, but new leaves grow back right into the same sun, and stay healthy.

I have alot of trouble with some of these scientific studies because you'll find both methodic errors - and esp. also interpretational errors from readers etc... so I personally wouldnt go so far as to make absolute sentences judging from a single study. For example, there's been this study comparison flower-weight Mh vs HPS --> outcome HPS wins hands down! because this is established because what most users look at is the result. Ofc its not without error, but in a forum where so many people from all over the world come together and share experiences, I guess there'll be some red line established in this "ground knowledge".

But coming back to the study & your post - did these studies really give both chamber species the exact same amount of potential for photosynthesis, so that this variable can be zeroed out and reasons found elsewhere. But what - a HPS puts out more photons, esp. in the 600w regime its 90k HPS lumen vs 60k CMH or 50k MH. So maybe they measured PAR out but then theres your mentioned quantum photon efficiency, has this been accounted for? And difference leaf surface and what not... then an MH has alot of different spikes... just to make an example

I would find it better for studies if LED monos are used... however, there are so many things to be considered it's basically mindblowing to try include them all... from UVB to green plants have so many different peaks in the uptake of light in certain regions, I wonder how they all interplay with each other, or what they tell a plant about its surroundings individually...

I also have a hard time understanding why a red 660nm receptor should tell a plant that it's "day" when inf act the blue light is hitting a plant even later, twice each day. Then there's this difference in canopy penetration and photon efficiency. The ones that's best absorbed is also absorbed quite swiftly, but it heat that part of the plant up but leaving nothing to the rest.... which, depending big plant/ tiny plant may just be both good depending on the situation...

Furthermore, some folks out there simply try to mimic the sun while others try to manipulate a plant with delivering special light frequencies. I also wonder if this manipulation is different from plant to plant, that is, it seems that having the ability to turn special frequencies on/out is mandatory.

And you don't really need to ask for cannabis-specific studies because many plant function the same. Yes, they mostly LOOK different :D
I do not see you post much but you always have very good insights!

I completely agree with your premise that perhaps it is best to provide stronger UVB for a shorter amount of time, building it up and tapering it off, to give the plant time to prepare and recover. That is arguably what mother nature would tell us. Fully adjustable lights with different channels and possible full automation (removing user error) may well be the grow lights of the future and I can see this happening in large commercial grows where electricity is one of the largest overheads so efficiencies are the best way to reduce costs. We are already seeing this to some degree.

I do not know as much about the HPS vs MH debate as @Prawn Connery and others but I agree that MH spikes but so does HPS. The quantum efficiency of HPS is higher than MH too as it produces more red or really yellow and orange and MH must convert more energy into green and blue and also UV. So using my quote about Einstein a HPS lamp would produce more photons than a MH lamp for the same energy.

Isn't this reason also to use more red? Because it is more efficient? Haven't indoor cannabis plants been selectively bred for almost 40 years to produce their highest yields and THC levels under HPS? I did read a study that suggested certain cannabis strains do not react the same way to Red and Far red ratios to other plants. Here it is. https://www.karger.com/Article/Fulltext/489030

No differences in flowering time between treatments were observed during the experiments. This suggests that the fast-growing “G-170” genotype is insensitive to changes in the R:FR ratio, a response commonly seen in long-day plants.
Unfortunately this same study contradicts itself.
Another possible cause of drop in cannabinoid concentration under the HPS lamp was the low R:FR ratio.
Perhaps those quotes are mutually exclusive. But I also find it interesting that Cannabis is a short-day species and the first quote seems to suggest that selective indoor breeding under HPS has changed the morphogeneric response in some cannabis varieties. it is a shame there is not more research into cannabis but at least that is changing.

I will say something on red light signalling daylight to the plant. Some plants live below the forrest canopy. Actually most plants live below the forrest canopy in the tropics where cannabis evolved. Red and Far Red light filter through the canopy more than Blue light, so it makes sense to use Red as the signal as there may be an absence of Blue at ground level.
 

Grow Lights Australia

Well-Known Member
Haha this is where I disagreed with Random. There's far more efficient 630nm chips than PC. We disagreed on a few things, but I miss the guy. Hope he's doing ok. He got a lot of us started and hyped about LED, myself included.
The Osram Oslon are one of the most efficient 620/630nm diodes and they have typical efficiency of 57%. We have calculated other 620 and 630nm diodes around the 55-56% mark. That is almost the same efficiency that we are getting with our Nichia V3F1 CRI90 2700K. If we used CRI90 3500K we would get less 620, but the diode efficiency increases. I think it goes 55% for 2700K, 56% for 3000K and 57% for 3500K all in CRI90. So for the High Light board we decided to use the most efficient CRI90 LEDs we could find, which were the Nichias, and use them instead of a blend of CRI70 or CRI80 and monos.

Here is the Osram I am talking about. You should calculate about 57% typical efficiency for these: https://www.osram.com/ecat/OSLON® SSL 120 GA CSSPM1.23/com/en/class_pim_web_catalog_103489/global/prd_pim_device_2402546/

We do know that everything comes down to available flux bins and that was another reason to go with Nichia. They give us very good (top-tier) flux bins and Osram tends to blend their top bins in each lot and offer them as a range, so the average is a bit lower. That was the thinking at the time of design. Things change and maybe we will do something different later on.
 

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
think know what @Prawn Connery is using ;) I know what @hybridway2 is using ;) What are the rest of you guys running in your gardens, @ChiefRunningPhist, @Humple, @Kassiopeija?
hey Im just a homegrower vegging on 0,64qm and flowering in 1.44m^2. I did ran a 600w MH + HPS for several winters. Then changing some stuff, currently its
4*75w 3590 Cree 3500k plus 20*730nm 12*400nm, at center HID either 250w HPS or 600w MH.
Vegging tent is currently MH HPS combo with extra sidelighting e27 variable colors...

my future is to build a LED for this, in a smaller tent the heat from the HIDs hit more... thats why I became interested in chips, wavelength and photo receptors. still trying to absorb all the information...
 
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