Frank Nitty
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Frosteeeeeee!!!
Schwaggy P's Random Stuff
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Schwaggy P
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Finding a solid plant that is finished at 8 weeks has become more difficult. Usually, you'd have to limit your hunt to indicas, but having this great sativa dominant plant is awesome. It's one of the reasons I really dig this plant. If I could just tighten up the stem strength by the end of this skunk project, she'd be a dream.
Schwaggy P
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That picture is the day after my 3rd STS spraying. I don't know if it's because of the STS itself or the less frequent sprayings, but the process seems much easier on the plants (and me 
).
Dieseltech
Well-Known Member
What sativa finish in 8 weeks? strain and company?
Sorry stoned lazy and curious
Sorry stoned lazy and curious
Schwaggy P
Well-Known Member
Green Crack, HSO
Dieseltech
Well-Known Member
Ok gotcha TY I saw the pics you posted berry nice
I am fairly new here and need to roll one up and go threw this thread and catch up
CoB_nUt
Well-Known Member
@HydroRed when using The CS,spritz the nodes only.There will be some overspray to the leaves,but if you concentrate on the nodes,there will be less collateral damage to the surrounding leaves.Just-a lil spritz action to the targeted nodes a week before flip and maybe 10 days into flower or until first sac forms has served me well.
Schwaggy P
Well-Known Member
I've been collecting pollen vials from the Black Lights to dust some lowers of each Black Lights female for a nice F2 stash.
Skunky D (Chem D x Skunky Brewster) has shown some great variance in the early veg phenos. I picked a nice example of each of the 3 main variations that are expressing.
Skunky Brewster leaner
Mixed
Chem D leaner
Skunky D (Chem D x Skunky Brewster) has shown some great variance in the early veg phenos. I picked a nice example of each of the 3 main variations that are expressing.
Skunky Brewster leaner
Mixed
Chem D leaner
Schwaggy P
Well-Known Member
Fruity Pebbles OG - Day 29
Black Lights - Day 17
Black Lights - Day 17
Schwaggy P
Well-Known Member
Thank youAny new thoughts on Terp Enhancinator?
Everything looks close to perfect.
So far the Terp Enhancinator as been in the rez for 3 weeks and the Green Crack S1 are putting off more intense smell than runs without any terp additive. The difference I'm observing between the Terpinator vs. Terp E. is that where the Terpinator really augmented the fruit/guava profile first, the Terp Enhancinator has brought out the onion/B.O./astringent terps strong.
The GC terp profile is: Astringent/Sour/Garlic/Guava
The Terpinator crop did finish with the smell profile "rounding out" with the other components of the GC smell, but the Guava aspect seemed more prominent than other GC runs. The Terpinator produced a more pronounced smell to the crop, so it seemed to do what it claimed.
The Terp Enhancinator has really turned up the more offensive parts of the smell. I'd assume the final smell will also round out with the other usual terps. If the pattern of what comes on strong first remains accentuated, then it seems Terp Enhancinator may be a better choice for the more skunky funky terp boost. I put a couple Chocolate Covered Strawberries on the tray to see how fruity/sweeter terps are affected, and they don't seem to be showing as much of a kick in intensity.
The dosage as calculated seems to be just fine, the ppm boost is no problem (as seen in the testing) and the plants are not expressing any nutrient issues. The Terp E. crop still has some time to go, but I'm feeling pretty good about what I'm seeing so far.
Schwaggy P
Well-Known Member
Polyandric Backcross
An attempt to mitigate the potential loss of recessive contributions inherent in observational breeding while simultaneously assessing step-wise male contributions.
“Don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good.”
INTRODUCTIONThe backcross method of breeding is a great process for getting an elite clone-only female into seed form. It’s most widely used form can be seen in the cubing method of repeating backcross generations until the resultant progeny have a ~94% genetic contribution of the target plant. Cinderella 99 is a great example of the cubing method.
The backcross process, as has been practically employed in the example of C99, makes the assumption that the successive genetic contribution passes to subsequent generations monolithically. The assumption then concludes that the repeated selection of a male will pollinate the original target female, resulting in progeny that is converging to her phenotype.
While the assumption of monolithic heredity (the human application would be to assume you would look like your father on the left side and your mother on the right side) seems ignorant of the myriad dynamics of genetic reality, it has utility as a method of herding the genetic range/pool into a purposeful direction (the target plant).
This ostensible oversimplification is almost mandatory in observational breeding as the selection of the male is based on phenotype instead of genotype. If I can only select based on what I see, then phenotype necessarily becomes the motivation irrespective of the “unseen” alleles. In a lab setting with unlimited technological resources, marker assisted backcrossing and other highly advanced techniques allow for the attempt to include the more nuanced dynamics of heredity. This is not the normal scenario for cannabis breeders, but does not diminish the classical backcross procedure as a powerful breeding tool.
BACKGROUND
The process of backcrossing as practiced, usually calls for the selection of a singular male from the initial F1 generation (Target female x Outcross Male) that most resembles the target female. This creates a bias for phenotype. A problem can arise if the constituent traits that make up the target female are double recessive. If you select a male based solely on observable phenotype and choose a male whose corresponding trait is heterozygous, then you will have created a scenario in which the targeted double recessive trait of the mother can be “washed out” by the true breeding dominant male (one could try to recover in a further generation, but this assumes you know it’s required and can select the necessary genotype for this attempt).
Here is an example of a scenario in which the limitation to a single male selection for the next backcross pollination can impact the resultant frequency of a targeted recessive trait:
EXAMPLE:
Let’s assume we have a target female H.A.OG and a male Black Triangle. We would like to backcross with 2 traits in mind, leaf blades and stigma color. After the initial F1 cross, we see that the progeny all have the leaves of the Black Triangle, so we assume the leaf trait is double recessive in the target female (H.A.OG).
AA = Black Triangle leaves
Aa = Black Triangle leaves
aa = H.A.OG leaves
Now, let’s add a second trait that cannot be observed in the male, stigma color (pistils).
BB = Black Triangle red stigma
Bb = Black Triangle red stigma
bb = H.A.OG brown stigma
In the scenario where you have only chosen one male based on the observable phenotype, you choose a male with the genotype: AABb (Black Tri leaves, Black Tri stigma color)
Our genotypes are:
H.A.OG – aabb
Black Triangle – AABb
We see that the progeny from this cross results in 2 distinct phenotypes suffering from the same issue we had in the previous generation (remember we already made the F1 and selected a male), namely a “washing out” of the recessive H.A.OG leaves and have a trait, stigma color, which cannot be observed in the males (pic 1). By limiting our choice to one male from this population for the next backcross, we are essentially flipping a coin on the potential frequencies of desirable traits. Since our selections are practically blind (because we cannot observe the genotype) we are at the mercy of probability.
Let’s see what happens if you selected a male of the AaBb variety (red boxes) to backcross with our H.A.OG (aabb):
We end up with 25% of the population with the target female phenotype aabb (pic 2). So when you blindly choose a male from this population, you only have a 1 in 4 shot at choosing the “right” male for the next round of pollination.
Now we will see what happens if I had chosen the other phenotype from the previous generation, Aabb (green boxes) to backcross to the H.A.OG:
In this case, we see that the target female phenotype is 50% of the population (pic 3). Contrast from the other male selection (pic 2), you now have a 1 in 2 shot at choosing the “right” male for the next generation.
The point being that limiting the male selection for the next backcross to one male, can hinder the success rate and total time required to reach the goal of increasing the desired target female traits.
POLYANDRIC BACKCROSS (polyBX)
I endeavor to attempt a modification to the backcrossing method that seeks to manipulate the probabilities such that the inherent blindness to the genotype does not breed one’s self into a corner in the case of singular male selection. I have dubbed this process Polyandric Backcrossing. "Polyandric", refers to a female with multiple male mates (more specific form of polygamy).
Instead of limiting to one male selection for continued backcrosses, multiple males will be chosen to pollinate the target female on different branches and kept separate (not mixing the pollen of all males). By choosing multiple males, the probability that the selection will include the necessary genetic ingredients to eventually converge on the target phenotype is augmented. In essence, this hedges against a wrong male selection at some point in the extended backcrossing process. The Polyandric Backcross (polyBX) can be thought of as multiple classical single male backcrosses happening concurrently. Since this polyBX process is to have a practical application to the at-home breeder, I will choose 3 males for each backcross generation.
In an effort to better benchmark the contribution of each chosen male, I will flower his daughters while simultaneously pollinating the target female with his son I choose for the next BX generation (pic 4). This allows me to have flowered examples of his contributions to the target female harvested and observed at the time the seeds for the BX are complete and ready to pop for further male selection.
In a scenario where the flowered daughters have shown stark deviations from the female, this line will be discontinued, and only the converging males will continue for further male selections (pic 5). Meaning, I will select my next multiple males only from those male lines that show a converging tendency. This will ensure a benchmarking or testing of each male selection without adding any extra time to this already involved process.
The other advantage to flowering each backcrossed generations’ daughters, is that the extent to which the polyBX generations must continue can be better assessed based on the results, instead of the classical backcross assumption of raw monolith percentage contribution. Where classical BX may do a full cube, the polyBX may only require a couple generations as evidenced by the performance of the flowered daughters.
While cutting down the required BX generations seems promising, it would require saving veg copies of the males in the event you find you’ve “nailed it” at a certain early BX generation. I will instead hybridize the classical and polyBX procedures to set out to do at least a certain number of BX generations (3-6) and save only the last set of selected males. This will allow me to toss earlier males, but keep the final male that gives me the best result for the final parental ingredients (Target female and polyBX’d male) to make large populations of the “winning” combo.
The final stage of the polyBX process could include filial breeding the final polyBX generation instead of replicating the final BX generation. I believe this decision will become more persuasive to either approach as information is gathered from the process. I can see pros and cons to this approach, but will reserve the decision after having assessed the efficacy of this Polyandric Backcrossing.
Schwaggy P
Well-Known Member
CONCLUSION
Backcrossing with single male selections can involve a “shot in the dark” aspect. Polyandric Backcrossing attempts to mitigate this somewhat by keeping the gene pool more open throughout the process while still converging the totality of the expressions to the target female. This also has the added benefit of testing the steps along the way while not adding any more time to the process.
I will be putting this theory into practice with the Hells Angels OG, in an attempt to get a regular seed version that is as similar as can be created within the limitations of smaller-scale observational breeding.
I also can see some advantage to starting this process by first selfing the target female into S2-S4 iterations in an attempt to first “lock-down” heterozygous pairings within the truncated gene pool of the target female first, and then employing the polyBX. This more intricate version is the subject of another project currently taking place with the Chemdog’91(skva).
Backcrossing with single male selections can involve a “shot in the dark” aspect. Polyandric Backcrossing attempts to mitigate this somewhat by keeping the gene pool more open throughout the process while still converging the totality of the expressions to the target female. This also has the added benefit of testing the steps along the way while not adding any more time to the process.
I will be putting this theory into practice with the Hells Angels OG, in an attempt to get a regular seed version that is as similar as can be created within the limitations of smaller-scale observational breeding.
I also can see some advantage to starting this process by first selfing the target female into S2-S4 iterations in an attempt to first “lock-down” heterozygous pairings within the truncated gene pool of the target female first, and then employing the polyBX. This more intricate version is the subject of another project currently taking place with the Chemdog’91(skva).
Schwaggy P
Well-Known Member
Chem'91skva reversal day 21
Schwaggy P
Well-Known Member
H.A.OG polyBX
BX1 : Male selection & flip
I started the initial F1 using a Black Triangle male. I thought the heavy OG influence in the Black Triangle would be a great starting point. Were I selecting a single male, I may have chosen something more structurally different than the H.A.OG to make the selection easier to spot a H.A.OG pheno. BX1 : Male selection & flip
I selected these three males from the (H.A.OG x Black Triangle)F1 as the best representatives of the main phenotypes expressing from the population. The second male looks most like the H.A.OG.
I have some freshly flipped H.A.OG in flower and will be flowering these males in clear storage totes. I can collect a heavy vial of pollen from each to dust the H.A.OG for the first round of backcrossing. Since they'll need to be much smaller to have room to stretch in the tote, they were heavily pruned and further dissected for info.
Leaves
Stems/Nodes
BigJonster
Well-Known Member
Took the morning to read every page. Really interesting and generous. Thank you swaggy
outliergenetix
Well-Known Member
hey brotha here are the jabba F2 males im selecting and taking pollen from. gonna take pollen from each and i have clones of each for now till i decide to narrow it down in another run or two. you can see 3 distinct phenos. i didnt do much stem rubbing yet sorry. how do these expressions look compared to the F1 expressions you saw? any tips on how these expressions look in regards to your jabba finished product pheno post? ik you posted like 9 phenos all together.. the one by itself was a female i just randomly picked one no special reason i chose this other than it was in the front lol. i also will provide one of the same female next to one of usefuls mint choc trips. with those so far i can say one has superior vigor and stem thickness i hope she has a nice terp profile if so that is the clear winner for yeild for sure. i didnt show her she was in the back. also disregard the shape as it isnt really any intentional training as you prolly rememebr me saying before. the females wer toped once early then the one main cola was used as a clone as the lowers were not filled out enough when i took em. this created a single cola with a bushy lower but it still gives a good idea of how it handles or what kinda apical dom it has. i actually like it this way to as i make a bowl of lowers in the middle of grps of fours with the "fence post colas" at the corners this i think will still allow me to get nice bud developement on those branching lowers. i bet these would train nicely if you wanted to but ti's not what im doing atm. imma post some other pics of the mint choc trips on uisefuls thread in a minute also.
i thought i had my door shut at first sorry about the blurple on two of em. the 3 are you jabba males the two are the min choc and a jabba both female and the 1 is a close up of the jabba female, she was in the middle size wise compared to the rest
i thought i had my door shut at first sorry about the blurple on two of em. the 3 are you jabba males the two are the min choc and a jabba both female and the 1 is a close up of the jabba female, she was in the middle size wise compared to the rest
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Schwaggy P
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Thank you for taking the time to read through.
Schwaggy P
Well-Known Member
The F1 threw a pretty wide range of phenos. The one tip I can offer is that some of the shorter phenos that you’d assume would finish rather quickly, can take longer than the lankier phenos to finish. So I would be more vigilant about the trichomes around week 7-8 before assuming it is time to back off the feed for a fade. They may “look” done, but the trichomes may tell a different story.
The F1’s also displayed a nice variance in traits other than structure with nice melon/hash/earth/potato skins smell/taste profiles. I made the F2 with multiple females and one male. The male was very Bubba dominant, but being paired with the multi-females means you should get a more Bubba centric, but still pretty open spread in the expressions.
The Chocolate Mint OG is a stinky plant in veg and really stinky plant in flower. She’s in my top 3 plants for smell intensity.
Dieseltech
Well-Known Member
Berry nice Schwaggy