23x CLU048-1212C4 vs. 6x CXB3590 CD

[tomate]

Hello,

I wonder which setup would be more efficient.

23x CLU048-1212C4
- 3000K >80Ra
- without optics (100% transmittance)
- 300 mA; 33.9V
- ~180 lm/W; Tj @40°C

or

6x CXB3590 CD
- 3500K >80Ra
- with optics (97% transmittance; KB 80°)
- 1050 mA, 33.9V
- ~180lm/W; Tj @40°C

The price for both setups should be approximately equal. Only the passive cooling for the citizen setup would be more expensive and I would need 2 drivers and not only one compared to the cree setup.

My grow space is 3.6' x 2.3' (~8 sq ft).
From the citizen setup I would expect a much better light distribution.


What do you think?

 

[optzulu]

Run the citizen on 700ma you will only lose 10lm/w but gain 2x more power, you can run 8 on a 185-700

 

[HighOnDIYLife]

I like the CLU Setup, but 3500K all the way.

 

[tomate]

I would also go for the 3500K but tme.eu does not offer them. They have only 3000K, 4000K and 5000K in their catalogue.
I need a distributor that ships either to germany or to poland.

TME is selling them for 13.65€ a piece VAT incl.

Another idea to increase the efficiency and the light distribution is using 8 CXB3590 running them @ 800mA and ~205 lm/W.


The citizen setup would be 20% cheaper and would draw 250W from the wall @300mA.
But I'm still unable to calculate the PPFD for the citizen 3000Ks whitout the LER and QER data.

I think the money u save on the citizen setup, you have to spend it on heatsinks.
It is a really hard choice to make. I still like the idea with the "huge" amount of the small citizens which would result in a more evenly spread light and no need for reflectors or optics.

 

[coolj]

Use 325 for the LER, dont quote me, but it seem like that number matches the light extraction efficiency calculations i got from citizen for the clu58.

 

[coolj]

Also, it seems like citizen wants to be driven harder than cree.

 

[JorgeGonzales]

I would also go for the 3500K but tme.eu does not offer them. They have only 3000K, 4000K and 5000K in their catalogue.
I need a distributor that ships either to germany or to poland.

TME is selling them for 13.65€ a piece VAT incl.

Another idea to increase the efficiency and the light distribution is using 8 CXB3590 running them @ 800mA and ~205 lm/W.
View attachment 3705213

The citizen setup would be 20% cheaper and would draw 250W from the wall @300mA.
But I'm still unable to calculate the PPFD for the citizen 3000Ks whitout the LER and QER data.

I think the money u save on the citizen setup, you have to spend it on heatsinks.
It is a really hard choice to make. I still like the idea with the "huge" amount of the small citizens which would result in a more evenly spread light and no need for reflectors or optics.

OK, if you use a monolithic heatsink, the cost is the same. You might come out ahead with individual ones, but they'd have to be appropriately sized and priced.

And here is 3000K 80CRI QER and LER:



Good luck. The Cree would be a much, much, much easier build.

 

[coolj]

OK, if you use a monolithic heatsink, the cost is the same. You might come out ahead with individual ones, but they'd have to be appropriately sized and priced.

And here is 3000K 80CRI QER and LER:

View attachment 3705460

Good luck. The Cree would be a much, much, much easier build.

Dam, I was pretty close cool

 

[BOBBY_G]

Hello,

I wonder which setup would be more efficient.

23x CLU048-1212C4
- 3000K >80Ra
- without optics (100% transmittance)
- 300 mA; 33.9V
- ~180 lm/W; Tj @40°C

or

6x CXB3590 CD
- 3500K >80Ra
- with optics (97% transmittance; KB 80°)
- 1050 mA, 33.9V
- ~180lm/W; Tj @40°C

The price for both setups should be approximately equal. Only the passive cooling for the citizen setup would be more expensive and I would need 2 drivers and not only one compared to the cree setup.

My grow space is 3.6' x 2.3' (~8 sq ft).
From the citizen setup I would expect a much better light distribution.


What do you think?

1. why are you comparing 3000K with 3500K?
2. driver cost per watt should be close to the same, just select different drivers
3. the citi setup is 233 cob watts, the cree is 213 cob watts. since they are the same efficiency the citi rig will will put out about the same amount of light using 10% less power
4.initial indications are that citi tool underrates lm/W at low currents (further testing is needed)
5. i disregarded cost of optics but buying holders for 23 chips vs 6 might cost you another $50 or more

 

[JorgeGonzales]

1. why are you comparing 3000K with 3500K?
2. driver cost per watt should be close to the same, just select different drivers
3. the citi setup is 233 cob watts, the cree is 213 cob watts. since they are the same efficiency the citi rig will will put out about the same amount of light using 10% less power
4.initial indications are that citi tool underrates lm/W at low currents (further testing is needed)
5. i disregarded cost of optics but buying holders for 23 chips vs 6 might cost you another $50 or more

Speaking from personal experience, the holder cost might be about even. BJBs are a buck each, vs the Ideal holder and adapter, which are...$5 from PLC? Damn. $23 vs $30 if you use reflectors.

Actually, those BJBs might be something somebody might want to order in bulk

 

[tomate]

And here is 3000K 80CRI QER and LER:

ty for the numbers

Good luck. The Cree would be a much, much, much easier build.

That's a good point and @Growmau5 said exactly the same before he deleted his post.

@BOBBY_G
1. Because 3500K are the best you can get and 3000K citizen are the only one that are close to them and I would be able to buy from tme.eu.
2. yepp

3. & 4. ok, so assume you are right with the underrated lm/w and if I adjust the citizen amperage to 270 mA to match the cree wattage @800mA and we lets say get about 190 lm/w from the citi setup, that would result in almost the same PAR watts.
5. like @JorgeGonzales said the costs would be probably the same (citi holders vs. cree holders & optics)

But all in all, I think building this large citizen array isn't really worth the effort because getting all parts together and building that thing would be much much more time-consuming and more difficult than placing a single order at kingbrite or cutter and putting significantly less parts together for the cree build.

Damn, if those citizen cobs were just a little bit cheaper at here I would really like to build that thing, but right now the cree setup makes more sense to me as it will be less pain in the ass building it.


ty all

 

[BOBBY_G]

i think that where the 1212s shine is if you wanted to glue up a bunch to a big ass heat sink and solder them.

arguably the best price/performance by a long shot for people with time on their hands

 

[JorgeGonzales]

Actually, soldering wouldn't be too bad, at least it would be fast for me, and you'd only be dissipating like 4.5W each, so yeah, no problem with thermal adhesive. That'd be fun, and definitely take less time than a frame/individual heatsink solution. And no holes to drill.

I vote for that. It would be a thing of beauty.

 

[BOBBY_G]

awesome project for the newbs

"I only burned out 2 of the 12 chips in this project but learned to solder and still beat out the 3590s on straight lpw!"

 

[HighOnDIYLife]

and I would be able to buy from tme.eu.

Can you go into details please, i just looked it up and tme.eu seems to have them listed but not in stock so far? Did you contact the support?

 

[Atulip]

Bunch of smaller low watt chips? Don't bother drilling and tapping, arctic silver 5 and kapton tape works just fine. Thermal management should be much easier with heat spread to more locations as well, go for cheap extruded aluminum bars. And soldering is simple, tin your wire, apply flux, apply heat. Quicker than screwing together holders.

@JorgeGonzales wow that QER is high. @tomate original 180lm/w for both, citizen 3000k 80cri is 2.67umol/j and Cree 3500k 80cri is 2.58umol/j. You need 3.4% more lumens with Cree for the same photon count.

 

[Greengenes707]

To play the devil's advocate...the known LER's for cree's came straight from Cree's mouth.
Before they gave those accepted numbers(and still after for that matter)...everyone who digitized and calculated the cree LER based on the data sheet charts has come up with 327-328lm...sounds familiar.

Sphere needed

 

[tomate]

@HighOnDIYLife
I've send them a message today.
Funny thing is, after changing the language to polish which sets the shipping destination at the same time, the price drops. At the moment I would pay 11.80€ a piece with taxes and shippig costs.
So that is ~270€ for the 23 pieces I would need.

@Atulip
Soldering is not a problem. I have a lot of experience in soldering and two good soldering irons/stations laying around.
But I really do not like the idea with the kapton tape. I think using holders that apply some pressure to the cobs would improve the heat flow, apart from the fact that it would look better and the whole design would be more stable.


Does anybody know where I can get some cheap holders for the clu048-1212 ?

 

[JorgeGonzales]

@HighOnDIYLife
I've send them a message today.
Funny thing is, after changing the language to polish which sets the shipping destination at the same time, the price drops. At the moment I would pay 11.80€ a piece with taxes and shippig costs.
So that is ~270€ for the 23 pieces I would need.

@Atulip
Soldering is not a problem. I have a lot of experience in soldering and two good soldering irons/stations laying around.
But I really do not like the idea with the kapton tape. I think using holders that apply some pressure to the cobs would improve the heat flow, apart from the fact that it would look better and the whole design would be more stable.


Does anybody know where I can get some cheap holders for the clu048-1212 ?


View attachment 3707113

Well that's what makes all your work. Drilling 46 holes.

 

[JorgeGonzales]

To play the devil's advocate...the known LER's for cree's came straight from Cree's mouth.
Before they gave those accepted numbers(and still after for that matter)...everyone who digitized and calculated the cree LER based on the data sheet charts has come up with 327-328lm...sounds familiar.

Sphere needed

Some more archaeology:

SPD's are consistent for CXA/B's. LER for 3000K 80CRI is 323lm/W calculated...325lm/W confirmed by Cree.

As long as we are coming in +/- one or two percent, I'm pretty impressed it works at all.