Killing Root Rot

fatman7574

New Member
One drop is nominall considered equal to 0.06 ml, so it would 1.6 drops per gallon to add 0.10 ml (1 ppm). 8 drops per gallon would equal 5 ppm. If you catually had a root rot problem that would be a fine dosage initially as most of it would be used up oxidixing al the existing dead roots so you residual chlorine would likely be less than 1 ppm. For prevetative traetment I would not recomend more that a 2 ppm initial dosage followed by 1 ppmdoses every 24 to 36 hours. Chlorine dissipates quite quickly in an open system, esopecially a well circulated or aerated system.
 

panta

Well-Known Member
what do u think about using beneficial bacteria to fight off root rot,i had a fungus atack my roots about 3 weeks ago,i had slimy roots then after adding some BB to the solution i have no more problems
 

fatman7574

New Member
I have no idea what the product is. Typically a beneficial bacteria such as you speak of just out grows the other bacteria and by competing with it for food etc. it keeps the level of the other bacteria at a much lower number so it can do less harm.

Really prevention is the way to go. As there are so many poor systems in common use at the moment the cheapest, yet still safe and effective treatment and preventative is chlorine treatment and residual chlorine as a preventative.
 

Sexxxy Beast

Active Member
I have no idea what the product is. Typically a beneficial bacteria such as you speak of just out grows the other bacteria and by competing with it for food etc. it keeps the level of the other bacteria at a much lower number so it can do less harm.

Really prevention is the way to go. As there are so many poor systems in common use at the moment the cheapest, yet still safe and effective treatment and preventative is chlorine treatment and residual chlorine as a preventative.
Thats defiantly not what we with root rot wanna hear. I bought some 35% peroxide a couple days ago and treated my plants with about 7ml's per gallon. Unfortunately I have yet to see any change in the roots, I hope that I dont have to start over. I am still unable to find out what dosage I need to kill root rot with H2O2. Does anyone know what I need to do?
 

fatman7574

New Member
Hydrogen peroxide is a strong oxidant but it has no residual effect. The hydrogen peroxide quichly just decomes dissolved O2 fater it has oxidized waht it can. Chlorine has a residual effect as it continues to worhk until it is all used up or dissipates into the air. Chorine can be easily measured and adk justed so can be readily used as a preventative. H2O2 leaves so residual behind so it only has any effect for a few minutes after its addition.
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
After doing a bit more research on Pythium, I have found that it is an opportunistic pathogen. This means it is always there but only becomes an issue when conditions are right and a plant is unhealthy.

The best prevention is to keep reservoirs around 68 degrees, keep it well aerated and keep debris out. Also, even a small amount of the fungi in plant stems can make a plant difficult to clone so it is a good idea to keep a mother in some good soil in case your hydro system shows signs. My plants show only some slight browning of the roots and this is enough to make cloning a challenge. I did get lucky and get a few to take, thus saving my prized strain.
 

fatman7574

New Member
After doing a bit more research on Pythium, I have found that it is an opportunistic pathogen. This means it is always there but only becomes an issue when conditions are right and a plant is unhealthy.

The best prevention is to keep reservoirs around 68 degrees, keep it well aerated and keep debris out. Also, even a small amount of the fungi in plant stems can make a plant difficult to clone so it is a good idea to keep a mother in some good soil in case your hydro system shows signs. My plants show only some slight browning of the roots and this is enough to make cloning a challenge. I did get lucky and get a few to take, thus saving my prized strain.
NOT

As I said before and will say again chlorine at low levels will not harm your plants or effect the taste of your buds. Chlorine addition to nutrient reservoirs is a good treatment and preventative measure for many bacteria, protozoa and fungi problems including Pythium.

Pythium is is not always there if you kill it and keep a residual level of chlorine present to maintain a zero level of pythium. It is nearly impossible with the many bad growng sytems in use to always keep Pythium at non injurous levels with the measures you suggest. With most systems being poorly designed (small tube aeros, NTF in small gutters and fense posts) so that roots are nearly always laying in very low DO water or even totally anoxic water and with DWC and Bubblepoincs systems full of dead and dieing roots and low DO levels reagrdless of all efforts to raise DO and reservoirs not being changed regularly (at least once a week) simply aerating the water and keeping the temp low will not keep phytium in check. Period.

Does anyone really think nearly every commercial green house grower uses chlorine constantly just to support the chlorine industries. No they use it to eradicate Pythium and to keep it from being able to return to cause harm.

Pythium and Recycled Irrigation Water

- By Ping Kong, Patricia A. Richardson and Chuan Hong

Chuan Hong is an assistant professor of Plant Pathology, Ping Kong is research scientist and Patricia A. Richardson is research specialist at Virginia Tech’s Hampton Roads Center, Virginia Beach, Va.

Research Results
Genetic codes of biological agents are stored in chemicals called deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) or ribonucleic acid (RNA). For Pythium pathogens, these genetic codes are stored in double stranded DNA. In this project, we developed a DNA fingerprinting technique for rapid and accurate species identification. The underlying mechanism of this technique is to separate the two complementary DNA strands, then let individual strands form secondary structures (conformations). Under prescribed fingerprinting conditions, formation of secondary structures depends on the DNA sequence thus can be a reliable character for species identification. The fingerprinting technique is called single-stranded conformational polymorphism (SSCP) analysis. With a single DNA fingerprint, we were able to differentiate 36 Pythium species assessed so far.
With this DNA fingerprinting technique, we have identified more than 20 species of Pythium from irrigation water. The most abundant species include P. dissotocum, P. torulosum, P. sulcatum and P. porphyrae. All identified species are plant pathogenic but vary in degree of aggressiveness. These results indicate the diversity of Pythium species present in irrigation water and the need for water decontamination in greenhouse and nursery production, especially those recycling irrigation water.

A total of 15 isolates were tested with zoospores for chlorine sensitivity and were assigned a number/letter combination. These isolates included six from nonchlorinated irrigation water, five from chlorinated water and four from diseased plants. Chlorine assay of each isolate was repeated twice. Efficacy of chlorine treatment was measured by the average number of colonies per petri dish with the most colonies per dish for control (0 ppm). Numbers of colonies varied among the repeated tests of the same isolates. They also differed with isolates from the same sources (nonchlorinated water, chlorinated water or plants). Differences among the isolates within the three sources remain unclear. Figures 1 and 2, below, illustrate the data; detail assay data of the 13 other isolates were omitted for simplicity.

No colonies were recovered at 2 ppm or above for the majority of isolates. Four isolates produced a few colonies at 2 ppm or above in one or two of the three repeated tests. Isolate 17C2 produced two colonies at 2 ppm in one test. Isolate 23J3 produced 0.3 colonies at the same concentration in two tests. Isolates 4E1 and 5J5 produced a few colonies at 8 ppm in one test, but none at 2 ppm or above in the other two tests (see Figure 1, page 33). Isolates producing colonies at 2 ppm or above produced colonies only at 1 ppm or lower in additional tests. These results suggest that the previously recommended 2 ppm free chlorine at discharge points (risers or sprinklers) for control of Phytophthora species also will effectively control Pythium zoospores in irrigation water. It must be noted that substantial numbers of colonies were recovered at 1 ppm for a majority of the isolates, and there essentially were no differences in colony recovery between 0.25 and 1.0 ppm of chlorine for most isolates. This chlorine response is considerably different from that of Phytophthora species reported previously. The mechanism behind this is unknown. But these results suggest that any failure to maintain recommended 2 ppm chlorine may expose entire crops in the production facility to Pythium diseases.

Pythium diseases are a major limiting factor affecting floral crop production. This problem will continue to aggravate with growing global water scarcity and pollution. Identification along with pathogenenicity tests of Pythium species present in irrigation water suggested that decontamination of recycled water before use is required to produce quality plants. Growers should use this recommendation as a guide when building a new production facility (e.g., greenhouse) or modifying an existing facility to minimize Pythium disease risk.

If anything chlorine should be used at heavier doses than I recommended. However as few people have a colorimeter or even a dye test to test for residual levels of chlorine I usually just reccommend adding chlorine at lower levels near 1 ppm and suggest higher levels be added only when lower levels appear inadequate.

For anyone that buys a colorimeter to test for residual chlorine or even a dye test I recomend the 2 ppm level initially and lowered to 1 ppm after the first Pythium killing dose of 2 ppm residual held at that level for at least 30 minutes. Depending on the amount of Pythium present and the amount of dead roots it can take several small doses after the initial large dose so as to maintain the residual level at 2 ppm for at least 30 minutes.
 

Sexxxy Beast

Active Member
NOT

As I said before and will say again chlorine at low levels will not harm your plants or effect the taste of your buds. Chlorine addition to nutrient reservoirs is a good treatment and preventative measure for many bacteria, protozoa and fungi problems including Pythium.

Pythium is is not always there if you kill it and keep a residual level of chlorine present to maintain a zero level of pythium. It is nearly impossible with the many bad growng sytems in use to always keep Pythium at non injurous levels with the measures you suggest. With most systems being poorly designed (small tube aeros, NTF in small gutters and fense posts) so that roots are nearly always laying in very low DO water or even totally anoxic water and with DWC and Bubblepoincs systems full of dead and dieing roots and low DO levels reagrdless of all efforts to raise DO and reservoirs not being changed regularly (at least once a week) simply aerating the water and keeping the temp low will not keep phytium in check. Period.

Does anyone really think nearly every commercial green house grower uses chlorine constantly just to support the chlorine industries. No they use it to eradicate Pythium and to keep it from being able to return to cause harm.

Pythium and Recycled Irrigation Water

- By Ping Kong, Patricia A. Richardson and Chuan Hong

Chuan Hong is an assistant professor of Plant Pathology, Ping Kong is research scientist and Patricia A. Richardson is research specialist at Virginia Tech’s Hampton Roads Center, Virginia Beach, Va.

Research Results
Genetic codes of biological agents are stored in chemicals called deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) or ribonucleic acid (RNA). For Pythium pathogens, these genetic codes are stored in double stranded DNA. In this project, we developed a DNA fingerprinting technique for rapid and accurate species identification. The underlying mechanism of this technique is to separate the two complementary DNA strands, then let individual strands form secondary structures (conformations). Under prescribed fingerprinting conditions, formation of secondary structures depends on the DNA sequence thus can be a reliable character for species identification. The fingerprinting technique is called single-stranded conformational polymorphism (SSCP) analysis. With a single DNA fingerprint, we were able to differentiate 36 Pythium species assessed so far.
With this DNA fingerprinting technique, we have identified more than 20 species of Pythium from irrigation water. The most abundant species include P. dissotocum, P. torulosum, P. sulcatum and P. porphyrae. All identified species are plant pathogenic but vary in degree of aggressiveness. These results indicate the diversity of Pythium species present in irrigation water and the need for water decontamination in greenhouse and nursery production, especially those recycling irrigation water.

A total of 15 isolates were tested with zoospores for chlorine sensitivity and were assigned a number/letter combination. These isolates included six from nonchlorinated irrigation water, five from chlorinated water and four from diseased plants. Chlorine assay of each isolate was repeated twice. Efficacy of chlorine treatment was measured by the average number of colonies per petri dish with the most colonies per dish for control (0 ppm). Numbers of colonies varied among the repeated tests of the same isolates. They also differed with isolates from the same sources (nonchlorinated water, chlorinated water or plants). Differences among the isolates within the three sources remain unclear. Figures 1 and 2, below, illustrate the data; detail assay data of the 13 other isolates were omitted for simplicity.

No colonies were recovered at 2 ppm or above for the majority of isolates. Four isolates produced a few colonies at 2 ppm or above in one or two of the three repeated tests. Isolate 17C2 produced two colonies at 2 ppm in one test. Isolate 23J3 produced 0.3 colonies at the same concentration in two tests. Isolates 4E1 and 5J5 produced a few colonies at 8 ppm in one test, but none at 2 ppm or above in the other two tests (see Figure 1, page 33). Isolates producing colonies at 2 ppm or above produced colonies only at 1 ppm or lower in additional tests. These results suggest that the previously recommended 2 ppm free chlorine at discharge points (risers or sprinklers) for control of Phytophthora species also will effectively control Pythium zoospores in irrigation water. It must be noted that substantial numbers of colonies were recovered at 1 ppm for a majority of the isolates, and there essentially were no differences in colony recovery between 0.25 and 1.0 ppm of chlorine for most isolates. This chlorine response is considerably different from that of Phytophthora species reported previously. The mechanism behind this is unknown. But these results suggest that any failure to maintain recommended 2 ppm chlorine may expose entire crops in the production facility to Pythium diseases.

Pythium diseases are a major limiting factor affecting floral crop production. This problem will continue to aggravate with growing global water scarcity and pollution. Identification along with pathogenenicity tests of Pythium species present in irrigation water suggested that decontamination of recycled water before use is required to produce quality plants. Growers should use this recommendation as a guide when building a new production facility (e.g., greenhouse) or modifying an existing facility to minimize Pythium disease risk.

If anything chlorine should be used at heavier doses than I recommended. However as few people have a colorimeter or even a dye test to test for residual levels of chlorine I usually just reccommend adding chlorine at lower levels near 1 ppm and suggest higher levels be added only when lower levels appear inadequate.

For anyone that buys a colorimeter to test for residual chlorine or even a dye test I recomend the 2 ppm level initially and lowered to 1 ppm after the first Pythium killing dose of 2 ppm residual held at that level for at least 30 minutes. Depending on the amount of Pythium present and the amount of dead roots it can take several small doses after the initial large dose so as to maintain the residual level at 2 ppm for at least 30 minutes.
Just to reiterate, you said to use 8 drops of Clorox bleach per gallon of water? Just 8 drops? Is this to prevent root rot, or to kill root rot? So fuck the H2o2, and stick with Clorox?
 

fatman7574

New Member
The dosage of 8 drops per gallon is ytypically enoughto both treat Phyth cause (root rot) and as a preventative used to keep levels ofthe different types of Pythium at zero. If your water comes from a water treatment center or from a deep well the level of Pyth would have started at zero so your just using the chlorine to keep those levels at zero and also to oxidize the dead root matter so it will sluff of from the good part of the root mass there by preventing root rot caused by putrefication of dead roots. If your water is coming form an untreated water source such as a pond, lake, ditch beside your house or a very shallow well in an agricultural area then the levels of Pyth and types of Pyth that could be present could require a dosage of 16 drops of chlorine per gallon as an initial dose. After that initial killing dose the dosage would be 8 drops of chlorine per gallon as a preventative. I do not assume there are any people using untreated water from a pond or ditch so I did not address that earlier. Some open bodies of water can have Pyth strains that require 2 ppm concentrations for twenty to thirty minutes before they are eliminated. I doubt anyone uses anything but tap water or water from a deep well but it is possible someone does.

I do not use H2O2 for root rot as it has no residual effect. It does not have a residual effect and its results can not be readily measures as can the results from chlorine usage. It is also much easier to over dose H2O2 and therefore kill living roots and oxidize nutrient compounds. H2O2 is a very strong oxidizer.
 

Sexxxy Beast

Active Member
The dosage of 8 drops per gallon is ytypically enoughto both treat Phyth cause (root rot) and as a preventative used to keep levels ofthe different types of Pythium at zero. If your water comes from a water treatment center or from a deep well the level of Pyth would have started at zero so your just using the chlorine to keep those levels at zero and also to oxidize the dead root matter so it will sluff of from the good part of the root mass there by preventing root rot caused by putrefication of dead roots. If your water is coming form an untreated water source such as a pond, lake, ditch beside your house or a very shallow well in an agricultural area then the levels of Pyth and types of Pyth that could be present could require a dosage of 16 drops of chlorine per gallon as an initial dose. After that initial killing dose the dosage would be 8 drops of chlorine per gallon as a preventative. I do not assume there are any people using untreated water from a pond or ditch so I did not address that earlier. Some open bodies of water can have Pyth strains that require 2 ppm concentrations for twenty to thirty minutes before they are eliminated. I doubt anyone uses anything but tap water or water from a deep well but it is possible someone does.

I do not use H2O2 for root rot as it has no residual effect. It does not have a residual effect and its results can not be readily measures as can the results from chlorine usage. It is also much easier to over dose H2O2 and therefore kill living roots and oxidize nutrient compounds. H2O2 is a very strong oxidizer.
I did what you recommended, still havent seen any sign of roots turning white or growing. I did alot of research into the "Peroxide Vs Bleach" thing and everyone says only to use bleach to clean your system, nobody said to use it as an additive. Do you have any documentation?
 

Dr. VonDank

Active Member
Very interesting topic. I have used H202 for the treatment of Root Rot--30ppms/300ppms/600ppms. It seems we are all on agreement that preventative measures are key---But once the nasty brown fungi hit--what really works... I have used the low h202 30ppms treatment with enzymes. And the 300/600ppms rate alone. H202 breaks down rather fast but since root rots are anaerobic the extra DO does continue to help by creating an unfriendly high Do level for about 48 hours--I am very interested about the chlorine and killing of root rot since h202 is just a treatment. I think its important to find the source of the problem and correct that first. If your running strick organics then you should try to stay away from h202 and clorine. There are good beneficial bac/fungi products out there that can keep the root rot in check. Enzymes work great to keep your mediums clean and beneficials keep root rot in check. Fatman----Since root rots are systemic and can be passed on to cuttings and clones are you saying that with the correct treatment of clorine you can treat a mother plant and cuttings taking from her after the treatment will be free of root rot
 

fatman7574

New Member
I am saying that in reality everyone should shock treat their water with at least a 2 ppm dosage of chlorine before its usage rather than trusting that your water was fully disinfected by the water treatment plant. Water treatment plants disinfect with chlorine at levels need to kill the majority of a ceratin type of intestinal bacteria found in animal and human feces (E Coli), not all other bacteria's or fungi etc. Researchers have found that to kill all Pyth it requires a "residual" doasage of at least 2 ppp be maintained for at least 20 or 30 minutes. Water treatment plants are only reqi uired to treat witha chlorine residual dosage of 0.4 ppm for 20 minutes. They typically only ink ject 2 ppm and almost 75 % of that is used up oxidizing organics in the water. This happens immeditattely upon inject. ie your water arrives with some live Pyth in it usually. Low levels of chloro ine will keep it in small numbers unlees your roots start dying due to low DO and then the low levels ofchlorine are not adequate to keep the low levels of Pyth in check beacuse the low levels are readily used up in oxidizing the dead roots. Therefore you should kill all pyth by adding 2 ppm of chloirine or more say 3 ppm 24 hours before using the water. 30 minutes after adding the chlorine use a small pump in the water or an airstone so the remaining Chlorine will dissipate M Now add 0.5 to 1 ppm of chlorine every two days at least. If yo at any time notice dieing brown roots kick in a single doase at 2 pp. and then go back to the 0.5 to 1 ppm doses. Ant newater you add shouldbe treated with chlorine befiore use. Pyth is not harmful to people so waste water treatment palnts do not disinefct at levels needed to kill Pyth. Pyth is about everywhere there is organic matter, it can also be airborne.
 

fatman7574

New Member
Yes. Most people do not know whether the water at their taps comes fron a surface body of water or a deep well. In nearlly all cases water from a deep well contains Pyth that can be killed with chlorine levels at 1 ppm. However most surface waters and shallow wells contain Pyth requiring doses of 2 ppm to kill the existing Pyth. In either case water treatment facilities do not normally use doses large enough to kill all the Pyth already present in the water being treated.

There are many strange resulting data from Pyth reserch that initially are confusing but they sort out in the end. Things such as in inert media hydroponics where the water is not treated to kill Pyth drain to waste systems have higher levels of Pyth present than in a recirculationg system with a nutrient reservoir. In recirculationg systems the nutrient reservoir water has greater populations of bacteria, fungi and protozoa that compete with the Pythium for food etc therefore keeping their population lower.

The beneficial bacteria etc really do nothing in regard to the root rot except compete with the pythium therefore keeping the Pyth population lower. Pythium will still over run those beneficials if root death is heavy though. The beneficials just l keep the Pyth from starting a problem but not taking adavanarthge of a naturally occuring problem as caused by root death from low DO.
 

Sexxxy Beast

Active Member
Ok guys,

This is what Ive been doing to try to kill my mild case of root rot. I originally bought 35% peroxide and removed my plants from the res and dipped them into a gallon container with an 10ml dose of peroxide. I obcourse exchanged the water with new water and added a few mls of peroxide to that along with an extra air stone, a total of 3 then. I came back a couple days later and the water was dirty and the roots were still not growing or changing color. So I decided that airstones are crap because they normally dont distribute the bubbles evenly. I went and built this DIY super bubbler DWC. 4 air curtains and a large 60gal air pump power this 18 gal res. I filled it with well water (200ppm) and 10 drops per gallon of clorox and I hacked off half of my root ball, stripped the small dead finger roots and left the larger main columns, and put them in.

Then I did some trimming VERY IMPORTANT, when you dont have a good root system you gotta cut the larger fan leaves so the plant doesn't have to try to support all that growth. I previously trimmed my large GDP that got a bad case of root rot, I had to cut the roots back up to the stem of my 15in tall plant! It is surviving and in fact doing the best in spite of it not having a root cluster. It had all the large fan leaves trimmed off when I noticed them yellowing and dying. Now its doing "OK".

The problem now is that the plant still isnt growing roots. What gives? Should I change the res and back off the clorox?

Here are some pics of my plant roots and my setup...





 

fatman7574

New Member
If you have a shallow well you likely will need up to 16 to 20 drops per gallon just to kill the pyth in the water. Then you have to oxidize the dead roots and still have enough remaining ck hlot rine left in thw water to be equivalent to 16 drops per gallon. Without a test kit it would be hard to actually judge the amount required. It will sem like a pain in the ass solution but the best results without a test kit would come from drawing into a seperate container the amount of water your reservoir holds and add 16 drops per gallon to the water. Drain your existing reservoir and add water and 16 drops of chlorine per gallon of water. After this water has run through your system for 30 minutes or so. Drain it and replace with the wother clorinated water. Let it run a half an hour or more before adding your nutrients. Every day for two days after that replace half the water with new water that has has 16 drops per gallon of chlorine added. After that add 8 drops per gallon every other day.
 

Sexxxy Beast

Active Member
I think I got it licked, The roots havent browned anymore and new root hairs are forming on the mains. Just started from the netpot down, Ill take pics soon. The bleach kept the water clean, no algae, no more dead roots, it was almost as clean as when I started it. I still dumped the water today and im running without bleach for the next 24 to see if root growth picks up. The res I treated with H2O2 had algae growth and the roots look a bit worst so that one is also running a cap full of bleach now.

Sweetness
 

Dr. VonDank

Active Member
That is great to hear!!!-----Another grower friend that has battled Root Rot said that botanicare aqua-shield and an enzyme of choice will work wonders for the preventative and treatment of root rot...
 

Bob14

Member
Alright i just battled root rot but... or so i think. Had a hydro set up in 5 gal pails and and when the roots came out of the net pot they would die... i was thinking this may be exposed light. I was running a top feed drip but they may have been under watered. how often do you run the dripper for hydros, my humidity is quite low. not killer low... just low. thnaks stay high:leaf:
 
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