Why don't Seedbanks state the if the seeds are F1, F2, F3, F4 ect?

BDOGKush

Well-Known Member
Ah, I see what partly causes this discussion. There's F1 for a trait, and people use it for a generation of a population. Technically, for Mendel, it's the first though...

Requiring "Pure lines" before calling it F1 is taking it a little extreme as it implies it's throughbred for literally all traits rather than those that the breeder wants to breed into a cross. So a cross can be F1 for certain traits, but at the same time not be a true F1 hybrid for all it's traits. Hence, we sometimes use "true F1" to stress what we are talking about.
I was just giving Gabe what he asked for, a link stating unless the parental plants are homozygous (pure lines) they're not F1 hybrids.

I agree that is taking it to the extreme when it comes to cannabis. A 'pure line' to you would be when the seeds always produce that specific trait you are breeding for.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
I was just giving Gabe what he asked for, a link stating unless the parental plants are homozygous (pure lines) they're not F1 hybrids.
I know, was just borrowing your post to make a point in general, reply to it wasn't meant specifically for you :)
 

burnseedless

Active Member
I may edit the title of this thread.!. Things kinda got off topic somewhat but it's ok. I like it, these threads help others . Share your knowledge people, some of us can decipher between the lines.
Sativied this article is true lol

"In an article titled “The Curse of Knowledge”, it’s noted that as a person learns more about a subject, it becomes increasingly more difficult to discuss that subject with someone who doesn’t posses that knowledge. It simply becomes harder and harder to empathise with them.

This means that the more educated and passionate you are about a subject, the harder you will find it to discuss or teach it to others. This effect is one of the cited possibilities for why teaching is so difficult a career, since it means that eventually teachers will become more and more disillusioned with the endless wave of perceived stupidity they’re forced to endure."

I'm guessing that's partly why you won't find many breeders eager to discuss these topics. :D

Exactly. I still call my crosses F1s for practical purposes, but in a "few" years when I'm done creating two IBLs and created an F1 out of those, I will surely specifically mention it's a true F1 as then those who care instantly understand what that means.

Breeders and seed makers found out you can sell something that is uniform enough to consider stable enough for growing, without actually breeding traits true (homozygous). Backcrossing for example. Continue crossing back to a plant and you usually will end up with something that looks mostly like that plant you cross back to. Doesn't mean it a truebred of course, not necessarily even for traits because dominant heterozygous genotype and dominant homozygous genotype are the same phenotype so either will do for growing.

That's the difference right there, bean sellers aim for a certain limited amount of pheno variety (uniform and stable enough for growing) and not to create a stable strain others can use for creating and selling true F1s. Considering the amount of commercial breeder wannabees who start seed banks smelling money I can't really blame them for not releasing the Ps of their F1s.... I will, if I ever get that far :)
 

dluck

Well-Known Member
I could be wrong but I consider a "pure line" what others call a "landrace" strain. Being on here let's me know that I don't know as much as I thought I did about growing and breeding ! I like "chucking pollen" then cracking beans to see what cool "phenos" come about.
 

burnseedless

Active Member
I could be wrong but I consider a "pure line" what others call a "landrace" strain. Being on here let's me know that I don't know as much as I thought I did about growing and breeding ! I like "chucking pollen" then cracking beans to see what cool "phenos" come about.
That"s is another term that i feel is vague (Strains) but idk if your wrong i'm just gonna say that through "landraces" you still would look for "pureline" that's what iv'e come to understand but if im wrong will someone correct me please.
 

burnseedless

Active Member
Pure lines are obtained from a single ancestor and are maintained by self-pollination and selection. Individuals in pure lines repeat over several generations the same genetically fixed traits. Pure lines are important as they are the main structural elements of plant varieties. Hybridization of two pure lines often results in heterosis in the first hybrid generation. This would be what I call a F1 but i may be wrong.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
That"s is another term that i feel is vague (Strains)
Wikipedia actually puts it nicely: "The term has no official ranking status in botany" Even outside the cannabis industry the term strain is used loosely...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strain_(biology)

idk if your wrong i'm just gonna say that through "landraces" you still would look for "pureline" that's what iv'e come to understand but if im wrong will someone correct me please.
Since you asked so nicely: Not "look for", but create a pure line (from a landrace population) through selection and inbreeding.

Pure lines are important as they are the main structural elements of plant varieties. Hybridization of two pure lines often results in heterosis in the first hybrid generation. This would be what I call a F1 but i may be wrong
That is correct. A pure line is a homozygous line that produces the same traits consistently and is created by inbreeding homozygous plants. Selecting parents that are homozygous (for each and all relevant traits) instead of heterozygous is the hard part.
 
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