Why do you oppose universal, single-payer healthcare?

Rooster802

Rooster802

Active Member
Fogdog said:
No big fan of Big Pharma. For myself, I maintain physical well being, I do eat the right foods and don't take anything because I don't need to. Not responding in defense of big pharma. The way they structure their business to maximize profit and suppress smarter ways towards good health is a major reason why our health care system is fucked. For instance, I do not doubt that studies regarding the effects of high cholesterol drugs and cholesterol in general were influenced if not designed by Big Pharma to benefit their business model and not actually advance our knowledge. As you point out we've recently learned drugs like Lipitor don't really help the patient. I'm willing to bet that the makers of Lipitor have a lobbying effort to cast doubt on this finding.

Just saying that prescription medicine does have it's place in health care. Also the underlying cause of the decline in health in the US has little to do with health care.

What I found shocking was your callous opening line about people dying without medication but the remaining population will be healthy. What you suggest is horrifying. Emphasizing economics as the limiting factor is also simple and wrong. Yes, there are limits but the focus has to be on people, facts, advancing knowledge, education and the reduction in economic stress in this society. Other societies operate just fine with socialized medicine, which is pretty much proof positive that your idea about this subject are your own and not factual.
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Thank you for your intelligent response. I sincerely apologize for what you perceived to be a "callous" line. I was trying to make a point, not advocating the end of prescription medication. I am a huge believer in modern medicine when used correctly. I LOVE health care when the patient is put first, and the needs of the patient are all that matters. What we have today is bullshit, and you clearly acknowledge that. Yo, Fogdog, we are on the same team brother. I don't want anyone to die, I wasn't suggesting we should end it. I was simply stating that if we did, in the long run more people would be healthier. What I WANT to happen, is that we move to a sustainable healthy food model, that we eat the right foods so we don't get sick as often. Preventative medicine through proper diet. Its easy, and it is so much cheaper than our current system. Its a win-win for humanity. We can eliminate type 2 diabetes (really the only diabetes of concern anymore because so many have this acquired disease from consuming too much sugar), heart disease, and cut cancer by 75%. If we eliminated 90% of health care costs just by fixing our food... don't you think everyone would be a lot happier about socialized medicine if it cost 10% of what it costs today?
People misinterpret what I'm trying to say all the time. Everyone who has responded to me on this forum has misunderstood me. Obviously, that is my fault. I am a bit of a shut-in these days and I read and study a lot. Unfortunately that doesn't always lend to people who live in the real world understanding what I mean.
just want the best for everyone, and I truly believe that both the Republicans and Democrats have zero concept of what has to happen with healthcare first before we can even begin to discuss who is going to pay for it. And really, I just want you guys to know that you have the power to change your own lives without needing a Doctor to do it. I used to be on a handful of prescription meds (VA skittles), today I take cannabis oil I produce myself, as well as ginger and turmeric, and eat a mostly natural diet (although I love my PBR at the bar 3 times a week and once in a while I eat some Doritos... the beauty of consuming medicine in your diet is you can cheat if you want) and I'm so much healthier than I ever was when I followed medical advice and I no longer take any prescription pills. My BP is that of a teenager, and every other lab value is perfect... for the first time in my life. I fucked my wife three times in one day last week, and normally we have sex at least once a day. I'm 39 years old and a medically retired veteran with a broken back. Impossible? Yeah, one would think so if they talked to their doctor. And my brain is so much clearer....
My personal physician is a 300 lb woman in her 40's who just had a hip replacement. Do you think she is really qualified to tell me how to live? And the damn thing is she is a brilliant Doctor and a wonderful person... just has a faulty playbook. Thats what I'm trying to say. Guys, I've seen a lot of death. If I'm callous... well, it comes with the territory. And I'm sorry, I hate human suffering more than anything in the world, and modern American medicine prolongs human suffering for increased profits. And that is evil. IMHO
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Rooster802 said:
Thank you for your intelligent response. I sincerely apologize for what you perceived to be a "callous" line. I was trying to make a point, not advocating the end of prescription medication. I am a huge believer in modern medicine when used correctly. I LOVE health care when the patient is put first, and the needs of the patient are all that matters. What we have today is bullshit, and you clearly acknowledge that. Yo, Fogdog, we are on the same team brother. I don't want anyone to die, I wasn't suggesting we should end it. I was simply stating that if we did, in the long run more people would be healthier. What I WANT to happen, is that we move to a sustainable healthy food model, that we eat the right foods so we don't get sick as often. Preventative medicine through proper diet. Its easy, and it is so much cheaper than our current system. Its a win-win for humanity. We can eliminate type 2 diabetes (really the only diabetes of concern anymore because so many have this acquired disease from consuming too much sugar), heart disease, and cut cancer by 75%. If we eliminated 90% of health care costs just by fixing our food... don't you think everyone would be a lot happier about socialized medicine if it cost 10% of what it costs today?
People misinterpret what I'm trying to say all the time. Everyone who has responded to me on this forum has misunderstood me. Obviously, that is my fault. I am a bit of a shut-in these days and I read and study a lot. Unfortunately that doesn't always lend to people who live in the real world understanding what I mean.
just want the best for everyone, and I truly believe that both the Republicans and Democrats have zero concept of what has to happen with healthcare first before we can even begin to discuss who is going to pay for it. And really, I just want you guys to know that you have the power to change your own lives without needing a Doctor to do it. I used to be on a handful of prescription meds (VA skittles), today I take cannabis oil I produce myself, as well as ginger and turmeric, and eat a mostly natural diet (although I love my PBR at the bar 3 times a week and once in a while I eat some Doritos... the beauty of consuming medicine in your diet is you can cheat if you want) and I'm so much healthier than I ever was when I followed medical advice and I no longer take any prescription pills. My BP is that of a teenager, and every other lab value is perfect... for the first time in my life. I fucked my wife three times in one day last week, and normally we have sex at least once a day. I'm 39 years old and a medically retired veteran with a broken back. Impossible? Yeah, one would think so if they talked to their doctor. And my brain is so much clearer....
My personal physician is a 300 lb woman in her 40's who just had a hip replacement. Do you think she is really qualified to tell me how to live? And the damn thing is she is a brilliant Doctor and a wonderful person... just has a faulty playbook. Thats what I'm trying to say. Guys, I've seen a lot of death. If I'm callous... well, it comes with the territory. And I'm sorry, I hate human suffering more than anything in the world, and modern American medicine prolongs human suffering for increased profits. And that is evil. IMHO
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Thanks for your service. You take care of yourself and I'm glad you've found a path to healing your wound. I understand better where you are coming from.

Your doctor has to know the issues due to come from being morbidly obese. Most obese people do. And you are right about type 2 diabetes being a large and growing problem. It makes me think that we have bigger problems than treating people. Our society is making people sick. Have you read about the effect stress has on people's choices? The stress comes from economic strain in our society. Jobs going away, wages declining, sources of stress. People have to change careers mid stream and often the second or third career means a loss in income. The US isn't alone in this trend but among it's peers, it is alone in it's attitudes towards people affected. Most 1st world nations have socialized healthcare. Also better retraining programs and other social safety nets. The US punishes people for their job loss. And so, the lack of social safety nets, I'm beginning to believe, is the cause of stress and eventually health issues like T-2 diabetes, alcoholism, depression and so forth.

Another looming problem is the rising elderly population. Half of whom will be dependent on Medicaid to pay for that help. As far as I know, a change in diet can't cure old age. It can reduce the onset age related disabilities but we all get old and infirm if we live long enough. It makes no sense to beggar the children of those elders to the point where they can't save for retirement. What a debacle that would be.

Many societies that treat healthcare as a right for every member of that society simply do better than the US. Not just in lower cost and effectiveness of health delivery services but also in the happiness and well being of those living in it. The 1% have grown pretty fat over the past 40 years along with widening economic disparity. They are the ones blocking progress in health care delivery systems. Just asking you to think about where the problems really are and why.

 
Rooster802

Rooster802

Active Member
Fogdog said:
Thanks for your service. You take care of yourself and I'm glad you've found a path to healing your wound. I understand better where you are coming from.

Your doctor has to know the issues due to come from being morbidly obese. Most obese people do. And you are right about type 2 diabetes being a large and growing problem. It makes me think that we have bigger problems than treating people. Our society is making people sick. Have you read about the effect stress has on people's choices? The stress comes from economic strain in our society. Jobs going away, wages declining, sources of stress. People have to change careers mid stream and often the second or third career means a loss in income. The US isn't alone in this trend but among it's peers, it is alone in it's attitudes towards people affected. Most 1st world nations have socialized healthcare. Also better retraining programs and other social safety nets. The US punishes people for their job loss. And so, the lack of social safety nets, I'm beginning to believe, is the cause of stress and eventually health issues like T-2 diabetes, alcoholism, depression and so forth.

Another looming problem is the rising elderly population. Half of whom will be dependent on Medicaid to pay for that help. As far as I know, a change in diet can't cure old age. It can reduce the onset age related disabilities but we all get old and infirm if we live long enough. It makes no sense to beggar the children of those elders to the point where they can't save for retirement. What a debacle that would be.

Many societies that treat healthcare as a right for every member of that society simply do better than the US. Not just in lower cost and effectiveness of health delivery services but also in the happiness and well being of those living in it. The 1% have grown pretty fat over the past 40 years along with widening economic disparity. They are the ones blocking progress in health care delivery systems. Just asking you to think about where the problems really are and why.

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I agree completely. I was just trying to show that there are even bigger problems then left vs right. And when you broaden the picture people get nervous, and I think some of my posts caused some nervousness. I firmly believe that some of these answers can be found in personal knowledge, growth, and change. We all want to change the world, but few of us think to start with ourselves. I want the world to change (specifically the US government) so that the most people will have the most good done for them. But that isn't going to happen. Not today and not tomorrow, maybe someday. So after getting political and beating my head against a wall, and watching Bernie get run out of the race despite being the people's choice, I realized it isn't going to happen soon enough for my mental health.
So I opted out. And I'm happier and healthier for it. I have redundant excellent health insurance and I no longer go to the Doctor or engage in health check ups. The healthiest people don't, so why should I? Start examining the lifestyles of "happy, healthy" people and you can learn a lot to enhance your own life and lives of those in your nuclear circle despite having a psychotic orange clown with one finger on the nuke button looming over all of us.
The government isn't going to save you. Save yourself, and then you can start saving your neighbors, and they can pass it on. We can create a better world from the inside. And if that sounds idealistic and impossible, well better to have hope than despair. I played the despair game and I was sad, the hope game brings happiness. And at the end of the day there is a lot of love and joy inside my home despite a multi-cultural, multi-faith, mixed race union.
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Single-payer puts everyone into one group. People, fundamentally flawed, don't want one-size-fits-all healthcare. By all means there should be an expansion of the public option and it should even be competitive. To eliminate private insurance would not improve conditions for everyone. It wouldn't even improve costs for most. If the goal is to make healthcare universal and affordable the best way forward is not to make everyone into one insurance peer group.

This holds true for all forms of insurance. Good drivers get lower premiums on auto insurance. Servicemen have their own group for life insurance because they are more likely to die than many other groups. I don't smoke tobacco and I don't think lung cancer should be covered by my group and I don't want to pay a higher premium for a plan that covers it. Lung cancer and emphysema treatments should be paid for by a fund that comes from a tax on tobacco products and therefore free of cost to the patient. Not all healthcare fits.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
By all means there should be an expansion of the public option and it should even be competitive. To eliminate private insurance would not improve conditions for everyone. It wouldn't even improve costs for most. If the goal is to make healthcare universal and affordable the best way forward is not to make everyone into one insurance peer group.
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Why would a wealthy person who can afford healthcare opt into a public option? How would the program be funded if wealthy people didn't opt into it?

No progressive policy I'm familiar with eliminates private insurance. They eliminate duplicate insurance. Anyone who wants to spend more for something like liposuction or plastic surgery can spend all they want. Universal healthcare focuses on medical need instead of ability to pay like we do in America

Private insurance overhead is 22% on average, M4A is 2%. We can save 20% on overhead costs just by switching to a M4A system, and according to data, 50% in cost per capita resulting in much better outcomes
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
Why would a wealthy person who can afford healthcare opt into a public option? How would the program be funded if wealthy people didn't opt into it?
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Are you serious? You honestly don't know shit about insurance. You shouldn't even talk about it. How much money a person makes doesn't even come into the equation. What is covered in the premium and the amount of copays (IE the fucking product you are buying) costs the same no matter how much money you have. Instead of hating rich people for having access, let's focus on bringing down costs.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
I think it would be best if we had a single buyer program. The government is efficient at collecting and purchasing, so allow them (either at state or federal level) to buy insurance for every citizen, that way they can have economies of scale.

The insurance companies can try to underbid one another to keep prices down and try to cherry pick the people they want to cover if they see a way to decrease costs. Private industry has always been more efficient at keeping costs low than the government.

Hospitals will be on the front line of giving the best care to their patients, but also having to innovate and keep costs lower due to having to deal with insurance companies still.

And the patients vote for their government representatives so at every level there would be checks and balances. Everyone gets covered and private industry stays out of government control.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
Are you serious? You honestly don't know shit about insurance. You shouldn't even talk about it. How much money a person makes doesn't even come into the equation. What is covered in the premium and the amount of copays (IE the fucking product you are buying) costs the same no matter how much money you have. Instead of hating rich people for having access, let's focus on bringing down costs.
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If I can afford private insurance, why would I buy into a public option?

Seems like a pretty basic question to your so called solution to the healthcare question
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
You can't fund healthcare without the contributions from wealthy donors, and wealthy people are not going to opt into a system of healthcare when they already have it themselves. That was the entire point of the individual mandate in the Affordable Care Act, you got fined if you didn't contribute if you were financially able to
 
dandyrandy

dandyrandy

Well-Known Member
After a friend went in the hospital for a problem associated with his heart maybe cost is an issue. 27k for 2.5 days with only monitoring being done. Released with no issues. As far as insurance and hospital costs go any time you have to pay shareholders you are throwing away money. Non profit would certainly cut some fat from shareholders. A "managed" non profit system will always cost less. I have a friend who is a Dr. moved from Canada to set up practice here about 20 years ago. He has quite a successful practice with several nurse practitioners working under him. He plays golf a lot. In fact his daughter got a scholarship for golf. But anyway I asked him why he moved here. He said money. Canada doesn't pay as well. It's complicated.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
Because it covers everything and is competitive.
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M4A covers everything, including dental, vision, mental health, and provides coverage for abortion, and it costs significantly less than what we're paying for now while 30-40 million Americans have no access to healthcare at all
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
That was the entire point of the individual mandate in the Affordable Care Act, you got fined if you didn't contribute if you were financially able to
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No. The entire point was to provide coverage. Whether it was accomplished or not, or whether it had unintended consequences doesn't change the point. The point wasn't, "make the wealthy pay", the point was to make all of the groups bigger, provide coverage to all and the unintended consequence was lower premiums, among other things.

Single payer makes EVERYONE pay for EVERYTHING, by putting everyone in the same group. Fuck that.
 
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