what's the best lemon strain from seed?

King Arthur said:

You obviously don't count your time as a cost, I put in 7-14 weeks per plant, I give people things that they can't find in a dispensary. Anything under 5 bucks a gram is not worth it to me. I would rather keep it and smoke it with friends. There is a lot of in between things that people forget about like bleaching the entire room. Trimming the entire crop myself etc.

And inflation has been artificially stable, unemployment we don't even count those that no longer have benefits. A prime example is popcorn at a movie theatre, 5 years ago it was 3.50 for a small, now it is 5.50 for a small. Milk has been increasing in price, gas decreased only due to what is happening in the world. If we throw aside the inflation number there are many costs that have gone up including electricity while wages are stagnant.

I am not opposed to giving someone a really nice deal and doing 125-150 an oz but I mean really it could cost you 20 bucks for nutrients and soil but if you actually put time in the garden it should be more valued.

When people are paying 400+ for an oz of top shelf at the collective it feels like robbery to be getting less than half for a fresh, top quality, all organic pesticides, with lots of love and definitely not kiefing it before handing it off. 400 bucks an oz is a total rip off but people pay it in the store.

IF someone did all the brunt work for me I'd give it away free.

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Me and my uncle have this debate every time we compare bud sacks. He thinks he is the shit with his $ 400 + collective weed. Then I pull out white v.$ one clarity diamonds out my pocket And roll a fatty. I laugh to and tell him keep buying that tumble weed. Like you said king it looks like they put it in a tumbler.

v.s one said:

Me and my uncle have this debate every time we compare bud sacks. He thinks he is the shit with his $ 400 + collective weed. Then I pull out white v.$ one clarity diamonds out my pocket And roll a fatty. I laugh to and tell him keep buying that tumble weed. Like you said king it looks like they put it in a tumbler.

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Its crazy but unless one grows or knows a grower it is hard to tell the difference. You can also just put a scope up to it and see how many heads are missing.

Personally I'm impressed with anyone who can remember to wear his depends..
Oh look a hole in my sock

Never had a bad pheno of the SLH fems

Herb & Suds said:

Personally I'm impressed with anyone who can remember to wear his depends..
Oh look a hole in my sock

Never had a bad pheno of the SLH fems

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The perfect drinking buddy if you are ugly.... depends. Can just keep drinking n drinking n drinking lolol

King Arthur said:

You obviously don't count your time as a cost, I put in 7-14 weeks per plant, I give people things that they can't find in a dispensary. Anything under 5 bucks a gram is not worth it to me. I would rather keep it and smoke it with friends. There is a lot of in between things that people forget about like bleaching the entire room. Trimming the entire crop myself etc.

And inflation has been artificially stable, unemployment we don't even count those that no longer have benefits. A prime example is popcorn at a movie theatre, 5 years ago it was 3.50 for a small, now it is 5.50 for a small. Milk has been increasing in price, gas decreased only due to what is happening in the world. If we throw aside the inflation number there are many costs that have gone up including electricity while wages are stagnant.

I am not opposed to giving someone a really nice deal and doing 125-150 an oz but I mean really it could cost you 20 bucks for nutrients and soil but if you actually put time in the garden it should be more valued.

When people are paying 400+ for an oz of top shelf at the collective it feels like robbery to be getting less than half for a fresh, top quality, all organic pesticides, with lots of love and definitely not kiefing it before handing it off. 400 bucks an oz is a total rip off but people pay it in the store.

IF someone did all the brunt work for me I'd give it away free.

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Technically we should count our labor Into our cost. I just think since I consume it and it's a love for labor, it's more difficult to put a price on.

and no, use information. The prices haven't risen at the rate you are suggesting. Check outhttp://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Consumer_Price_Index
prices have held very steady and inflation has been very minimal.

TonightYou said:

Technically we should count our labor Into our cost. I just think since I consume it and it's a love for labor, it's more difficult to put a price on.

and no, use information. The prices haven't risen at the rate you are suggesting. Check outhttp://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Consumer_Price_Index
prices have held very steady and inflation has been very minimal.

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I love to do what we do but it is also back breaking labor, I get sore after doing 14 hours of trimming though and if I dry trim sometimes I can't breathe for a few days. Asthma issues.

It isn't just one item or commodity going up in price in a huge way, it is everything that adds up. Cable bill, phone bill, property tax, rental tax all kinds of shit they increase every year. Even if it is only fifteen cents extra for a snickers if I buy 100 of them it makes an impact.

I appreciate the statistics though and clearly inflation has been steady but I think there is much more to it than both of us have gotten into. I do see a decrease in my spending power though over the years.

King Arthur said:

I love to do what we do but it is also back breaking labor, I get sore after doing 14 hours of trimming though and if I dry trim sometimes I can't breathe for a few days. Asthma issues.

It isn't just one item or commodity going up in price in a huge way, it is everything that adds up. Cable bill, phone bill, property tax, rental tax all kinds of shit they increase every year. Even if it is only fifteen cents extra for a snickers if I buy 100 of them it makes an impact.

I appreciate the statistics though and clearly inflation has been steady but I think there is much more to it than both of us have gotten into. I do see a decrease in my spending power though over the years.

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I have relative's that gets $20 a gram whether it's a single gram or an ounce. I can remember $15-20 O's

TonightYou said:

Actually inflation has been very low for the past 5 years or so. Prices have gone down due to increased supply as legal states (medical or recreational) have been diverting more to illegal markets.

Of course we should be paid for our work, we all know an ounce doesn't cost $200 to create. Every setup is different but minus my time as an expense, every plant cost me less than $20 from start to finish from clone.

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Wow. $20. I'd love to see the breakdown of that number. How much for electricity, water, nutrients, growing media, labor, lights, fans, growing equipment, testing instruments, harvesting and curing supplies, and other miscellaneous items? If you're growing inside how much for the property costs (rent or payment and maintenance)? Do you have legal costs (lawyer to incorporate and advise)? Do you keep books and have a bookkeeper or accountant help with taxes? Do you pay taxes to the state?

If you do all the above and still produce at $20 per unit I have an immediate job for you. Please come out to California and help us achieve those stunning results. I would gladly pay you six-figures per year just to educate us on your methods. You don't even have to lift a finger - just tell us your secrets and I'll put $100k in your hand. It will pay off for us in a matter of months.

I love the interwebz.... no one knows I'm really a dog.

I grow in my living space, I'm medically legal. No additional cost there. Just for myself and a few patients.

I use Jacks nutrients which are cheap as shit, still using the same tub for almost two years. It's literally less than $0.50 to fertilize, and add in soil expenses and I'm probably around an extra $0.50 or so in total.

I run a 600 watt, 2 tube t5, and 440 cfm fan. I pay $0.15 with fees in kwh. 600 is $32/month. Fan and t5 is $17 a month. So about $50 a month. A plant takes about 4 months total from start to finish, I flower out 8 plants at a time. So it's actually closer to $25 per plant. I'm using my most recent electrical rates including fees and taxes.

Now capital expenses have been paid off, and I'm just a small time Gardener. To be honest I'd hope even larger scale production has lower costs even with the addition of other costs (rent, permits, insurance).

So $26 a plant, which can yield me anywhere from 1.5 to 2.5 ounces, strain dependent and size of veg. Actually the cost could be even lower if I recycled soil. Genetics have a cost but I run many of the same plants and one gal flowered out once pays for a pack so there is that.

That's the math, like I said if I were doing even more optimization I'd replace my fan with a more efficient one, and recycle soil, and id stop using jacks and just buy raw salts. Summer cost me a tad more in electric in AC but that's just as much for my comfort as it is my plants.

Honestly it isn't hard to grow cheap. Stop buying stupid bottled nutes, and know your equipment. Run my lights at night for cooler temperature control. It isn't hard, so feel free to send me a $100 grand if you are so inclined.

Knott Collective said:

Wow. $20. I'd love to see the breakdown of that number. How much for electricity, water, nutrients, growing media, labor, lights, fans, growing equipment, testing instruments, harvesting and curing supplies, and other miscellaneous items? If you're growing inside how much for the property costs (rent or payment and maintenance)? Do you have legal costs (lawyer to incorporate and advise)? Do you keep books and have a bookkeeper or accountant help with taxes? Do you pay taxes to the state?

If you do all the above and still produce at $20 per unit I have an immediate job for you. Please come out to California and help us achieve those stunning results. I would gladly pay you six-figures per year just to educate us on your methods. You don't even have to lift a finger - just tell us your secrets and I'll put $100k in your hand. It will pay off for us in a matter of months.

I love the interwebz.... no one knows I'm really a dog.
View attachment 3356914

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Also just to be more specific, I believe every grower should know the cost per plant, or per lb/ounce/time frame. Doesn't really matter the measurement you chose, but you should have an idea of your cost structure for whatever output you are measuring (I personally find gpw to be silly but others like it). I chose price per plant because I run several strains and I can make adjustments on what the final return is knowing the price per plant and the end yield of each plant. If one were running clones of one type or several, it could be broken down differently.

We all grow differently and have different rules to follow but really review your process like an auditor would. Are you buying unnecessary things that you "think" you need? Most of the time, those things are not needs, they are simply wastes (Silly brand name nutes, cloning gels, and most additives with no scientific basis in research). Where can you save money? Change to off peak hours for savings on electric? Run hydro, and it's a trade off for increased plant growth for higher electircal costs.

Do you prefer high yielding plants that are lower grade to more botique plants with lower yields? Sure I could produce way more product running commercial strains but at a cost of quality.

Are you constantly buying beans and search for holy grails? That can increase expenditures. Have you ran bad genotypes and ran into problems? I have with MLI, and had to throw out over an ounce of end product due to mold. Or ran plants that just didn't work in your setup? I have with the Malawi, took up two valuable slots for almost 4 months.

It benefits all of us growers to be more business minded. Any grower should have an idea of cost structure particularly if they sell in anyway. So minus labor, which I could put a price on if I wanted to, depending on a plant yielding 1.5-2.5 ounces I'm spending just around $26. Cannabis is easy and cheap to grow. Anyone stating otherwise is full of shit and hasn't done the math. Ounces out here go for $150-250 depending on your connect. So that $26 plant (minus labor of course) is making at a minimum $175-225, that's a great fucking return if you ask me.

By the way, I'd gladly go over your expenses, this is what I went to school for, budgeting, auditing and public sector finance. There is always a way to save money in this field and lower costs when able with out affecting quality.

TonightYou said:

I grow in my living space, I'm medically legal. No additional cost there. Just for myself and a few patients.

I use Jacks nutrients which are cheap as shit, still using the same tub for almost two years. It's literally less than $0.50 to fertilize, and add in soil expenses and I'm probably around an extra $0.50 or so in total.

I run a 600 watt, 2 tube t5, and 440 cfm fan. I pay $0.15 with fees in kwh. 600 is $32/month. Fan and t5 is $17 a month. So about $50 a month. A plant takes about 4 months total from start to finish, I flower out 8 plants at a time. So it's actually closer to $25 per plant. I'm using my most recent electrical rates including fees and taxes.

Now capital expenses have been paid off, and I'm just a small time Gardener. To be honest I'd hope even larger scale production has lower costs even with the addition of other costs (rent, permits, insurance).

So $26 a plant, which can yield me anywhere from 1.5 to 2.5 ounces, strain dependent and size of veg. Actually the cost could be even lower if I recycled soil. Genetics have a cost but I run many of the same plants and one gal flowered out once pays for a pack so there is that.

That's the math, like I said if I were doing even more optimization I'd replace my fan with a more efficient one, and recycle soil, and id stop using jacks and just buy raw salts. Summer cost me a tad more in electric in AC but that's just as much for my comfort as it is my plants.

Honestly it isn't hard to grow cheap. Stop buying stupid bottled nutes, and know your equipment. Run my lights at night for cooler temperature control. It isn't hard, so feel free to send me a $100 grand if you are so inclined.

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Thanks for the detailed replies. I appreciate the time you took to create them.

I believe we are looking at significant differences in scale. We are not small hobby growers, We are a legal California non-profit mutual benefit corporation and must do things a small hobby grower might ignore. Think employee salaries, lawyers, accountants, real estate agents, state taxes, local taxes, permit fees, book keepers, trimmers, bud tenders, electricians, security guards, security systems, information systems, IT professionals, marketing and advertising expenses, printing and packaging expenses, distribution costs, etc.

These things all take $$$ and are necessary to be legal.

We also use Jack's but simply can't grow enough to fill the demand in our living spaces. We don't subscribe to all the interwebz "magic" either. We've been doing this a long time and have optimized most materials and processes to lower costs to a minimum wherever possible.

I'm not comfortable revealing too many details about our operations but the electrical load is near 1000amps in our main facility. Our processing and warehousing facility gets by on 200 amps. Our electricity bills will make your eyes water.

Capital expenses for 15,000 square feet are, shall we say, a bit more than a house payment. And we must insure those facilities too. Larger scale doesn't always mean lower costs, especially for things like buildings, insurance, electricity, water, etc.

I support all who grow cannabis and respect their efforts. Each has a path to success. Ours is a bit more difficult and costly because we are doing it by the legal book, with the best equipment we can obtain and by employing creative, talented and hard working people. When legalization occurs in California we hope to be well-positioned for long term success.

Guess I better keep that $100k, huh? Looks like I might need it, lol.

Knott Collective said:

Thanks for the detailed replies. I appreciate the time you took to create them.

I believe we are looking at significant differences in scale. We are not small hobby growers, We are a legal California non-profit mutual benefit corporation and must do things a small hobby grower might ignore. Think employee salaries, lawyers, accountants, real estate agents, state taxes, local taxes, permit fees, book keepers, trimmers, bud tenders, electricians, security guards, security systems, information systems, IT professionals, marketing and advertising expenses, printing and packaging expenses, distribution costs, etc.

These things all take $$$ and are necessary to be legal.

We also use Jack's but simply can't grow enough to fill the demand in our living spaces. We don't subscribe to all the interwebz "magic" either. We've been doing this a long time and have optimized most materials and processes to lower costs to a minimum wherever possible.

I'm not comfortable revealing too many details about our operations but the electrical load is near 1000amps in our main facility. Our processing and warehousing facility gets by on 200 amps. Our electricity bills will make your eyes water.

Capital expenses for 15,000 square feet are, shall we say, a bit more than a house payment. And we must insure those facilities too. Larger scale doesn't always mean lower costs, especially for things like buildings, insurance, electricity, water, etc.

I support all who grow cannabis and respect their efforts. Each has a path to success. Ours is a bit more difficult and costly because we are doing it by the legal book, with the best equipment we can obtain and by employing creative, talented and hard working people. When legalization occurs in California we hope to be well-positioned for long term success.

Guess I better keep that $100k, huh? Looks like I might need it, lol.

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I feel ya, it's not exactly apples to apples but the same accounting principles apply. You are definitely correct, you have a higher cost structure and probably much more structured debt. I know California has higher energy costs from a quick glance of electircal rates, but there are ways to offset those too if you haven't.

Each one of those items you probably have a base line. Each one of those line item expenses should probably have a year of actual data and two additional columns for a +/-10%. Some costs are static and there isn't a possibility for reduction. In some of those other areas, you maybe able to hit an overall reduction (say you want to decrease overall expenses by 5%, you can move margins where you see changes) by either introducing technology , reducing payroll, increasing yield (change strains, volume of higher selling strains, you get the picture).

Every business should know their margins. And I get as an NPO, you have much more over head than I do, but that doesn't mean you can't find savings or cost covering measures if you know the in and out of your expenses and revenues. It's simply an issue of scale and complexity.

Knott Collective said:

.... lawyers, accountants, real estate agents, state taxes, local taxes, permit fees.......... Ours is a bit more difficult and costly because we are doing it by the legal book............

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Indeed.

unwine99 said:

I have a SLH going in flower tonite. Leaves and stem have been reaking of citrus for the last week or so. I'm pretty stoked about it.

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GHS.......Super Lemon Haze -- week 7, smelling very funky..............................