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What type of Government did the founding fathers envision?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by medicineman, Sep 1, 2008.

  1.  
    medicineman

    medicineman New Member

    What type of government did the founding fathers really envision? Was it the oligarcic plutochracy of todays government? One with gigantic Jingoistic tendecies. I think not. The advent of the corporation had not been drempt of in those days. Had it been, I'm sure they (The founding fathers) would have built in some protection against them for the populace. They had little Idea that rich capitalists would one day control the government, stealing everything they could from the people. Not only did they not see this coming, when successive government leaders noticed this phenomenom, it was already too late as they had been bought and paid for, therefore they had to cover it up as much as possible as they would have been held culpable. Now we are left with the most corrupt government on the face of the planet. One whos entire reason to exist is to protect the corporations from the people. They even go so far as to use the children of poverty as gunfodder in their wars of aggression to protect the interest of corporations accross the globe. I'm pretty sure the founding fathers did not have this in mind. I believe they had more of a socialistic republic in mind. one governed for the people, of the people, by the people.
    NewGrowth likes this.
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    NewGrowth

    NewGrowth Well-Known Member

    Government was supposed to remain small. The founding fathers wanted a democracy that feared the people not a people that feared their government. The constitution was written to protect us from out own government and uphold our civil liberties. The problem is not in the design but in the apathy of the people most people have no idea what is even written on the constitution. I personally have a copy. I don't think they wanted a socialist republic either but a free state where local government was more powerful than federal government. Freedom and Liberty were key, a nation of laws not rulers.
    FLoJo likes this.
  3.  
    medicineman

    medicineman New Member

    So tell me, How did the corporations gain control? BTW is not a socialistic republic one governed by the people?
  4.  
    MrFishy

    MrFishy Well-Known Member

    I hope it was supposed to be "live and let live" and "help your neighbor" if they need it . . . and leave them alone if they don't.
  5.  
    NewGrowth

    NewGrowth Well-Known Member

    No a socialist republic reserves power for the state to provide for the people. The founding fathers did not envision a classless society but a fair and just government that was based in written Law. Corporations gained control because of the americans public's own apathy, we work less make more money and sit on our asses. Previous generations had a purpose they worked hard formed labor unions against unfair workplace practices, participated in government, and had a strong sense of ownership and pride in their country.
    This is the most beautifully written line in the declaration in my opinion: "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." Government should fear the people not the other way around. The founding fathers believed deeply in individual freedom and felt it every mans responsibility/right to participate in government.
  6.  
    medicineman

    medicineman New Member

    That would be nice, but people are not ready for that yet. It's more like screw your neighbor before they screw you.
  7.  
    NewGrowth

    NewGrowth Well-Known Member

    I don't think we have the MOST corrupt government either. I love my country and its history and i believe the time is coming soon for another American revolution we have had several already: Civil War, Abolition, Great Depression, Civil Rights, Womens Rights, hell the 60's. Apathy is the enemy of freedom, greed is just a byproduct.
  8.  
    medicineman

    medicineman New Member

    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

    The problem is, with the advent of the industrial age, the populace grew complacent in their comfort. They didn't notice a certain portion of the populace growing in wealth at exponential leaps and bounds, (the corporations) while garnering the governmental influence for their benefit. Now that we've arrived at the jingoistic plutocratic oligarcic government we have, how do we change it?
  9.  
    NewGrowth

    NewGrowth Well-Known Member

    Like I said the founding fathers did not envision a classless society. The system is not perfect and never will be. Our current problems are a result of American greed as a whole not the greed of a few. We all consume the byproducts of our current oligarcic government with ravenous gluttony. We are on the advent of a new american revolution, the energy crisis will either drive the american public out of their apathy or we will stand by and eventually accept despotism. I don't believe that will happen though I believe that the american public is a "sleeping giant" make them uncomfortable enough and they will accept nothing less than freedom, liberty, and happiness.
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    hom36rown

    hom36rown Well-Known Member

    Except for their slaves of course
  11.  
    NewGrowth

    NewGrowth Well-Known Member

    Actually no they held slaves but they could not touch abolition as not to upset the southern states that depended on them for their economic stability. It was widely discussed amongst the founding fathers really meant freedom and equality for all men. They knew slavery was morally wrong but they were tackling larger problems at the time, like a war with the most powerful country in the world. Any discussion of abolition would have split a still unformed nation in two, unity was too vital. I know its not the same but imagine if you were told that you had to get rid of your car because it was morally wrong to continue to pollute with it. It would cause a total collapse of the economy and I'm sure most americans would not approve. Slaves were accepted by the founding fathers as a necessary evil at the time of the revolution.
  12.  
    ccodiane

    ccodiane New Member


    Good post NG. You're right on.

    Lincoln was a great man. He addressed and righted the foundings original hypocrisy, that all men are created equal. America seems to produce exceptional individuals like this in unequaled proportions. God bless us.:blsmoke:
  13.  
    CannaPanda

    CannaPanda Well-Known Member

    the founding fathers were mainly freemasons themselves.. and their fathers and mothers were criminals... this is all (sadly) facts... they really had no real thought of how to run a country, nor did they want to control their people, they just knew if it wasnt in their hands to create it, someone else would find an even worse way to 'govern' the people of the country they had founded... I Am only 19 but this has intriuged me since i had been in middle school... did you know that the constitution was 'plagarized' (spelling.. and not a great choice of word) from the 'iriquois' great binding law of peace?...
  14.  
    NewGrowth

    NewGrowth Well-Known Member

    Not sure where you are getting your information but you need to stop watching "National Treasure" and read up on the free masons.:roll:
  15.  
    misshestermoffitt

    misshestermoffitt New Member

    I doubt the founding fathers had this corrupt mess in mind when they drafted the constitution.

    Corporations are now in charge because they grease the palms of the people who make the rules. It's all about cash. It's all about greed. Politicians don't think "what can I do for my countrymen" they think "how can I make my bank account bigger?"

    Since the lawmakers don't follow the rules, I decided not to either. The cops that are to enforce the laws don't follow the laws they are enforcing. I see them writing tickets for things that they do. County cop in my town always running around writing seat belt tickets, yet his kids would be jumping around in the car when they went somewhere, no seatbelts in action there. The chief of police lets his son (less than 10 years old) ride a mini bike and an ATV on the same public streets that he harasses others for riding on. The judge that used to throw the book at people for pot raised a son that sold weed in High school and college.

    Why should I follow the rules, none of these people that are supposed to lead by example follow them.
  16.  
    CannaPanda

    CannaPanda Well-Known Member

    funny, because i have never seen national treasure (but i do know its a movie) and heres some read if u want.. but im sure you dont care to...
    The Six Nations: Oldest Living Participatory Democracy on Earth scroll down and look at the picture.. and read about the image..
  17.  
    NewGrowth

    NewGrowth Well-Known Member

    I think you are discounting great men Canna. I read through this and there was nothing about plagiarism. These men were humble enough to accept their limitations and examine the opinions and ideas of others. These men were creating a radical new form of government never seen before and you are right they did not want to control "their" people as you say. We should be grateful that these men had altruistic and humble attitudes towards government or we might have had lords instead of a congress and a king rather than a president. These men had no idea how to "govern" because they believed the power of government was to be held by all men of a free nation not by a select few. And "criminals" in this day were considered such by British law (all of the founding fathers we criminals under British law) which was unjust and tyrannical, thus the impetus for the American Revolution.
  18.  
    CannaPanda

    CannaPanda Well-Known Member

    see how i said that might not be a good coice of word (yet this is the only key word you looked for).. i do understand that they were doing a difficlut task never seen before..
    but the fact that that natives had marched almost a full month before the signing of the constitution shows how much easier it was to do when only taking three parts of a seven part system the natives had lived by..
    our 'system' (plz dont dwell on this keyword) has been compromised to a state close to kings. but the kings are behind the scenes and have a person to 'control' (or this one) and blame for mistakes.. this is not what our fathers had envisioned.
    in my opinion. they had known that corruption was imminent, (how could you have no corruption with people who are considered criminals in another country coming over) which is why in the 2nd paragraph and the second sentence of the declaration of independence is said if it were to become destructive it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it. and create anew..
    Connoisseur177 likes this.
  19.  
    VTXDave

    VTXDave Well-Known Member

    And all this time I thought that the Magna Carta had a major role in the drafting of the Constitution.
  20.  
    NewGrowth

    NewGrowth Well-Known Member

    I'm really not sure what you are getting at Canna. The responsibility for the state of the nation lies with the American public and always has. Conspiracy theories about "behind the scenes kings" are ridiculous. Who is this person to "control" and blame for mistakes?

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