Water: The Most Essential Compound

doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
Potato42 said:
Great info in here! In wanting to find out more about my tapwater, I found I could contact my local supplier for an CCR, or Consumer Confidence Report which outlines just about anything I could want to know about my tapwater. This is good news because I don't have to guess about what is in it, nor do I have to pay for testing equipment or someone to run tests on it. The only downside is the report is only released once a year, and the test data will be from the previous cycle. I am only looking for general information anyway so that shouldn't be too big a deal.

You can start your search as I did here http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw000/ccr/whereyoulive.html?OpenView

I couldn't find mine in the list so after a quick google search and phone call I had a .pdf file in my email! Give it a try and see what's in your water.:bigjoint:
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Thanks for the link.:bigjoint:

edwardtheclean said:
whats the best option for a hydro grower? distilled water is a dollar a gallon, id like to get the osmosis system but its 250, im sure ill spend that in water here soon. buying gallon after gallon after gallon....
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You should be able to use the machines at the grocery store. It's r/o filtered, it's much cheaper than distilled and nearly as pure.

kappainf said:
Doc always puts up some nice threads, cheers.
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Thank you. bongsmilie

Teereg said:
Oh....so bunch of knowledge here about proper growing. Thanks. I've learned a lot. It is nice to know man that there are certain ways how you gonna successfully grow marijuana. Yeah!
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Thank you.:bigjoint:

tat2ue said:
Doc,,,My water basically comes from the end of the line from the Mississippi river. Its ppm out of the tap is 190 to 210 and the ph varies from 6.8 up to as high as 8.0+ at times.My water really sucks so whats my best alternative?? Keep in mind the total gallons for all my nute tanks are around 180 gallons total. And i refill and top them off straight from the hose and add an off the shelf chemical that remove chlorine and chloramine from ponds and fish tanks. I have been treating my water this way for about a year and have not had any water related problems yet. Thanks for any help Hydro Master
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I'm told that anything above 250 ppm may not be optimal for growing. Yours is under that and the pH can be adjusted easily. If you aren't having problems I say don't change a thing. Happy growing. :weed:

travon said:
this is what I've been looking for,great sticky
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I'm glad you enjoyed it. I've been away on business for a week or so so I apologize for not getting back to everyone sooner. It's good to be back. :eyesmoke:
 
Straight up G

Straight up G

New Member
Hey doc it me again, the leaves on my buds are red-edged can I ask you I am thinking of flushing for 3 weeks! before I chop, I have already flushed for a week to try and fix the problem but is not working so with 2 weeks left of the flush and the lowest PPM water I can get is 105 PPM how do I get zerowater without r/o?, more importantly is this what you would do?

Thankyou SUG
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
Straight up G said:
Hey doc it me again, the leaves on my buds are red-edged can I ask you I am thinking of flushing for 3 weeks! before I chop, I have already flushed for a week to try and fix the problem but is not working so with 2 weeks left of the flush and the lowest PPM water I can get is 105 PPM how do I get zerowater without r/o?, more importantly is this what you would do?

Thankyou SUG
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It may just be the strain. Flushing is a personal preference. I typically give a week to 10 days of flush but I haven't noticed much difference with or without flushing. 105 ppm is very low and should be fine for flushing. bongsmilie
 
T

travon

Member
doc111 said:
Now that we've discussed the different types of water purification growers use I want to talk about some of the myths and facts about water.

A lot of people let their water sit out for a period of time, usually 24 hrs to a few days. Some people run an airstone in their water as they are letting it sit. This does a couple of things. Chlorine evaporates out of water pretty quickly since chlorine is a gas at room temp. An airstone can help this chlorine evaporate a little quicker and oxygenates the water at the same time. Letting water sit out doesn't do much to eliminate Chloramine. Chloramine is a newer chemical used to treat municipal water supplies. It's basically a combination of Chlorine and Ammonia. It doesn't evaporate so filtering with a brita or some other type of carbon filter is necessary to remove it. Reverse osmosis also removes chloramine.

Hard water is another problem many of us face. As discussed previously, hard water is basically dissolved Calcium and Magnesium ions. But these are elements needed by our plants you say. This is true but the problem is we don't really know how much of these elements are in our water. Too much of either can cause problems as well. You won't see it after one watering but over time these elements can build up in your soil or other medium and cause lockouts and all sorts of problems. You cannot reduce the hardness of water with a brita or similar carbon water filter. ///

DOC SO THE CARBON FILTER THAT I BOUGHT WILL GET THE CHLORMINE OUT THE TAP WATER , CORRECT?WILL I BE ABLE TO TELL USING A TDS METER.I HAVE ADMIT YOUR ON POINT WITH SOFT TO HARD WATER GRAPH MY TAP WATER READS AT 170PPMS DOC,YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING THANKS FOR THE GREAT INFO
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doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
travon said:
doc111 said:
Now that we've discussed the different types of water purification growers use I want to talk about some of the myths and facts about water.

A lot of people let their water sit out for a period of time, usually 24 hrs to a few days. Some people run an airstone in their water as they are letting it sit. This does a couple of things. Chlorine evaporates out of water pretty quickly since chlorine is a gas at room temp. An airstone can help this chlorine evaporate a little quicker and oxygenates the water at the same time. Letting water sit out doesn't do much to eliminate Chloramine. Chloramine is a newer chemical used to treat municipal water supplies. It's basically a combination of Chlorine and Ammonia. It doesn't evaporate so filtering with a brita or some other type of carbon filter is necessary to remove it. Reverse osmosis also removes chloramine.

Hard water is another problem many of us face. As discussed previously, hard water is basically dissolved Calcium and Magnesium ions. But these are elements needed by our plants you say. This is true but the problem is we don't really know how much of these elements are in our water. Too much of either can cause problems as well. You won't see it after one watering but over time these elements can build up in your soil or other medium and cause lockouts and all sorts of problems. You cannot reduce the hardness of water with a brita or similar carbon water filter. ///

DOC SO THE CARBON FILTER THAT I BOUGHT WILL GET THE CHLORMINE OUT THE TAP WATER , CORRECT?WILL I BE ABLE TO TELL USING A TDS METER.I HAVE ADMIT YOUR ON POINT WITH SOFT TO HARD WATER GRAPH MY TAP WATER READS AT 170PPMS DOC,YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING THANKS FOR THE GREAT INFO
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That's correct, a carbon filter will remove or reduce significantly, chloramine and chlorine. bongsmilie
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T

ThyCheeseLord

Member
hey, can you help me. i have to grow my weed out in the woods and i was wondering if i could set up a drip water system from a river into the plants, would this work or would it rot the roots or something? the plants will be under a polytunnel type greenhouse i am building so they wont get any rain water.
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
ThyCheeseLord said:
hey, can you help me. i have to grow my weed out in the woods and i was wondering if i could set up a drip water system from a river into the plants, would this work or would it rot the roots or something? the plants will be under a polytunnel type greenhouse i am building so they wont get any rain water.
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I don't see why it wouldn't work. As long as the river isn't badly polluted or something I don't see why it wouldn't work. :blsmoke:
 
businessmen

businessmen

Active Member
On my water report what is the hardness ppm? Averages 378. TDS avg-713 PH 7.6 calcium only 104 and magnesium 29. Could I get lockout? Sulfate 244 sodium 44
Could this b a nutrient lockout from my hard water- please take a look at this thread.

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/299899-ayone-had-problems-indonesian-bat.html

Im at the end of my rope. But I just still having a hard time jumping on the fancy water bandwagon. Nobody worries too much about it when growing anything else in their gardens. I mean, our hard water, clay soil, and alkalinity is renowned here but.... Ive only gotta get the plant thru 3 months. Thank you, and great thread.
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
businessmen said:
On my water report what is the hardness ppm? Averages 378. TDS avg-713 PH 7.6 calcium only 104 and magnesium 29. Could I get lockout? Sulfate 244 sodium 44
Could this b a nutrient lockout from my hard water- please take a look at this thread.

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/299899-ayone-had-problems-indonesian-bat.html

Im at the end of my rope. But I just still having a hard time jumping on the fancy water bandwagon. Nobody worries too much about it when growing anything else in their gardens. I mean, our hard water, clay soil, and alkalinity is renowned here but.... Ive only gotta get the plant thru 3 months. Thank you, and great thread.
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That's pretty hard water. If you haven't been able to come up with a solution it may be time to try switching your water. You can get r/o water at most grocery stores for around $.25 per gallon. You will need some sort of cal-mag product because you will most likely get these deficiencies if using r/o or distilled water. From reading through your thread it sounds like you've been doing way too much stuff to those poor plants. There is such a thing as loving your plants to death. Don't try to compare your houseplants to cannabis. Water quality isn't usually an issue but if you are having problems you may be one of those rare cases. :weed:
 
businessmen

businessmen

Active Member
THanks I just moved and my water mighta been a little better before. I know I got real desperate with the last batch when they were dying. Im just baffled. Never had a problem I cant diagnose. Thank you for taking a look! I even did flush them occasionally with rainwater or R/O from the store. I always thought the problem with hard water is salt accumulation. So you normally just want to give an occasionall flush.
 
businessmen

businessmen

Active Member
Just called my old water district, TDS was 500 something, 512 I think. Dont know if that was last year or this years average. Last year was the end of a 4 yr drought. This year very rainy. The water report for my house now that said 713 was last year.
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
businessmen said:
THanks I just moved and my water mighta been a little better before. I know I got real desperate with the last batch when they were dying. Im just baffled. Never had a problem I cant diagnose. Thank you for taking a look! I even did flush them occasionally with rainwater or R/O from the store. I always thought the problem with hard water is salt accumulation. So you normally just want to give an occasionall flush.
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No problem. Hard water can be extremely challenging to deal with. Unfortunately it's not as simple as giving an occasional flush with r/o. :joint:

businessmen said:
Just called my old water district, TDS was 500 something, 512 I think. Dont know if that was last year or this years average. Last year was the end of a 4 yr drought. This year very rainy. The water report for my house now that said 713 was last year.
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Those numbers are well into the extremely hard range. It's no wonder you are having problems. Try doing a mix of r/o and your tapwater until you acheive around 150ppm and you shouldn't have any problems. If so you should be able to adjust accordingly knowing that your water isn't the problem. Best of luck my friend. :weed:
 
CWL

CWL

Member
Well never thought about water , but i use the condensation thats pumped from the furnance, its pumped straight into a jub in my room, it saves my from filling up jugs and walking them to the room...so would this water be ok?
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
CWL said:
Well never thought about water , but i use the condensation thats pumped from the furnance, its pumped straight into a jub in my room, it saves my from filling up jugs and walking them to the room...so would this water be ok?
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Be careful using that water. It can contain high amounts of copper, lead, bacteria and other nasty stuff. You can try running it through a brita filter. That should remove most of the nasty stuff. :weed:
 
CWL

CWL

Member
doc111 said:
Be careful using that water. It can contain high amounts of copper, lead, bacteria and other nasty stuff. You can try running it through a brita filter. That should remove most of the nasty stuff. :weed:
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Thanks all just go back to the tap water...
 
sagensour

sagensour

Active Member
Gardenmaster1 said:
I often use the water from my dehumidifier in my grow room and it's about 5ppm.
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Nice thread and thank you. Some of this fluid/water from coils or heat exchanger are made just like rain water, however I'd rather use rain water since coil/exchanger water can contain acids and such. So can rain water though. I use city water that I filter with carbon with KDF filter

The best way to test for hardness/calcium is with a Grains Per Gallon testkit. Thats the best way. PPM/TDS is very hard to break apart when looking for specific componds. Although it is possible.

Water is the universal solvent. This means, water breaks apart whatever it touches and takes apiece of what it touches with it. An attraction.

Total Dissolved Solids are the only thing that actually gets dissolved into the water, like salt and suger etc. Dissolved sollids have EC value. Use R/O or DI tank get rid Dissolved Solids.

Undisollved solids are compounds that dont break apart or dissolve in water. Most things like organics(Sand,rock,hair)They have no EC value or very very little EC value. Sediment filters work for Un-dissolved solids.

The water, as it travels from the clouds will come through the sky and the ground and then it starts its solvent process.(picking up shit)
If you live in a non-polluted area like in the woods or the bay, you will most likely have lower Total Dissolved Solids(TDS) out of a well.
If you live in an area with lots of industry with floating soluable chemicals around in the air(LA), you will most likely to have a higher TDS out of a well.

Most chemicals break down and become soluable into the water and become a Total Disolved Solids. Sometimes the water has a higher TDS(pollution) when it hits the ground from the sky and then it gets cleaned by compounds in the ground and it comes out cleaner(lower TDS) than it when it entered.


Really, water is just highly solvent H20 and should have a virgin TDS of 0TDS/PPM.

As H20 travels through the sky or the earth it will loss or gain dissolved or undissolved solids. Since H20 is a solvent it mave have picked up diffrent material or componds depending on where its at. You may like these compounds and you may not.

In N.Y. the TDS maybe @ 100PPM and in SF the TDS maybe 100PPM, but that doesnt mean that they have the same amount of certain dissolved solids. Make sense?

No water with the same TDS is the same. Never! I would recommend a Reverse Osmosis for areas with a high TDS and a Carbon KDF Filter with areas that have low TDS

Low being 50ppm or less and high being above 50.

Hope that helps Yo! SS :?
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
Hard Water

Hard water is usually defined as water which contains a high concentration of calcium and magnesium ions. Measurements of hardness are given in terms of the calcium carbonate equivalent, which is an expression of the concentration of hardness ions in water in terms of their equivalent value of calcium carbonate. Water is considered to be hard if it has a hardness of 100 mg/L or more as calcium carbonate.



Hard water causes bathtub rings.​


Softening is the removal of hardness from water. This is not a required part of the water treatment process since hard water does not have any health consequences. However, hard water is problematic for a variety of reasons. Hard water makes soap precipitate out of water and form a scum, such as the ring which forms around bathtubs. In addition to being unsightly, the reaction of hard water with soap results in excessive use of soaps and detergents. Hard water may also cause taste problems in drinking water and may shorten the life of fabrics washed in hard water. Finally, hard water harms many industrial processes, so industries often require much softer water than is usually required by the general public.




Calcium carbonate scale on a piece of pipe.​


Excessively hard water will nearly always have to be softened in order to protect the water treatment plant equipment and piping systems. At a hardness of greater than 300 mg/L as calcium carbonate, scale will form on pipes as calcium carbonate precipitates out of the water. The scaling can damage equipment and should be avoided.



Sources of Hardness

Hardness generally enters groundwater as the water percolates through minerals containing calcium or magnesium. The most common sources of hardness are limestone (which introduces calcium into the water) and dolomite (which introduces magnesium.) Since hardness enters water in this manner, groundwater generally has a greater hardness than surface water. There are also regional variations in hardness, shown by the map below.




Since they are the two most widespread and troublesome ions in hard water, it is often said that hardness is caused by calcium (Ca2+) and magnesium (Mg2+) ions dissolved in water. However, hardness can be caused by several other dissolved metals as well, including strontium (Sr2+), iron (Fe2+), and manganese (Mn2+). You will notice that all of the hardness-causing ions are divalent cations, meaning that they have a charge of positive two. Metals such as sodium (Na+) and potassium (K+) with a charge of positive one do not cause hardness.



Types of Hardness

As mentioned above, hardness in water is caused by a variety of divalent cations, primarily calcium and magnesium. These cations have a tendency to combine with anions (negatively charged ions) in the water to form stable compounds known as salts. The type of anion found in these salts distinguishes between the two types of hardness - carbonate and noncarbonate hardness.

Carbonate hardness compounds
Noncarbonate hardness compounds
Calcium carbonate (CaCO3)Magnesium carbonate (MgCO3)Calcium bicarbonate (Ca(HCO3)2)Magnesium bicarbonate (Mg(HCO3)2)Calcium hydroxide (Ca(OH)2)Magnesium hydroxide (Mg(OH)2)
Calcium sulfate (CaSO4)Magnesium sulfate (MgSO4)Calcium chloride (CaCl2)Magnesium chloride (MgCl2

As you can see in the table above, carbonate hardness is caused by metals combined with a form of alkalinity. Alkalinity is the capacity of water to neutralize acids and is caused by compounds such as carbonate, bicarbonate, hydroxide, and sometimes borate, silicate, and phosphate. In contrast, noncarbonate hardness forms when metals combine with anything other than alkalinity.

Carbonate hardness is sometimes called temporary hardness because it can be removed by boiling water. Noncarbonate hardness cannot be broken down by boiling the water, so it is also known as permanent hardness. In general, it is important to distinguish between the two types of hardness because the removal method differs for the two.

When measuring hardness, we typically consider total hardness which is the sum of all hardness compounds in water, expressed as a calcium carbonate equivalent. Total hardness includes both temporary and permanent hardness caused by calcium and magnesium compounds.



Hardness Problems

In addition to having different removal methods, carbonate and noncarbonate hardness can cause different problems. Carbonate hardness is the most common and is responsible for the deposition of calcium carbonate scale in pipes and equipment. The equation below shows how this deposition is formed in the presence of heat:


Calcium bicarbonate → Calcium carbonate + Water + Carbon dioxide
Ca(HCO3)2 → CaCO3 + H2O + CO2​


In addition to the scale (calcium carbonate) produced, carbon dioxide resulting from this reaction can combine with water to give carbonic acid which causes corrosion of iron or steel equipment.

In contrast, noncarbonate hardness is the culprit in forming soap scum. Noncarbonate hardness reacts with the carbonate alkalinity found in soap and detergents in this reaction:


Calcium sulfate + Sodium carbonate → Calcium carbonate + Sodium sulfate
CaSO4 + NaCO3 → CaCO3 + Na2SO4​
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
sagensour said:
Nice thread and thank you. Some of this fluid/water from coils or heat exchanger are made just like rain water, however I'd rather use rain water since coil/exchanger water can contain acids and such. So can rain water though. I use city water that I filter with carbon with KDF filter

The best way to test for hardness/calcium is with a Grains Per Gallon testkit. Thats the best way. PPM/TDS is very hard to break apart when looking for specific componds. Although it is possible.

Water is the universal solvent. This means, water breaks apart whatever it touches and takes apiece of what it touches with it. An attraction.

Total Dissolved Solids are the only thing that actually gets dissolved into the water, like salt and suger etc. Dissolved sollids have EC value. Use R/O or DI tank get rid Dissolved Solids.

Undisollved solids are compounds that dont break apart or dissolve in water. Most things like organics(Sand,rock,hair)They have no EC value or very very little EC value. Sediment filters work for Un-dissolved solids.

The water, as it travels from the clouds will come through the sky and the ground and then it starts its solvent process.(picking up shit)
If you live in a non-polluted area like in the woods or the bay, you will most likely have lower Total Dissolved Solids(TDS) out of a well.
If you live in an area with lots of industry with floating soluable chemicals around in the air(LA), you will most likely to have a higher TDS out of a well.

Most chemicals break down and become soluable into the water and become a Total Disolved Solids. Sometimes the water has a higher TDS(pollution) when it hits the ground from the sky and then it gets cleaned by compounds in the ground and it comes out cleaner(lower TDS) than it when it entered.


Really, water is just highly solvent H20 and should have a virgin TDS of 0TDS/PPM.

As H20 travels through the sky or the earth it will loss or gain dissolved or undissolved solids. Since H20 is a solvent it mave have picked up diffrent material or componds depending on where its at. You may like these compounds and you may not.

In N.Y. the TDS maybe @ 100PPM and in SF the TDS maybe 100PPM, but that doesnt mean that they have the same amount of certain dissolved solids. Make sense?

No water with the same TDS is the same. Never! I would recommend a Reverse Osmosis for areas with a high TDS and a Carbon KDF Filter with areas that have low TDS

Low being 50ppm or less and high being above 50.

Hope that helps Yo! SS :?
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Thanks for the post.............I think.:? You are correct about water being the universal solvent. That doesn't mean that everything dissolves in water. Hard water is caused by water picking up minerals as it travels through the ground and bedrock. TDS gives you the Total Dissolved Solids so you have no idea how much calcium and magnesium is in the water. It may be all calcium and no magnesium. Hardness has very little to do with industry. In industrialized areas you are more likely to have acid rain, heavy metals and sulfur compounds in your water. I have to say I disagree with your assertion that 50 ppm and over is very hard water. Usually water isn't classed as hard until it reaches around 200 ppm. In fact I have a book by Ed Rosenthal called the Marijuana Garden Saver. It recommends you adjust your water up to 150ppm with cal/mag if you are using distilled-r/o or soft tapwater (you would want to adjust the ppm down if using hardwater). I wrestled with cal-mag deficincies until I started doing this. Ever since I've had no problems with these deficiencies so I would say it's pretty sound info in my experience. :weed:
 
sagensour

sagensour

Active Member
doc111 said:
Thanks for the post.............I think.:? You are correct about water being the universal solvent. That doesn't mean that everything dissolves in water. Hard water is caused by water picking up minerals as it travels through the ground and bedrock. TDS gives you the Total Dissolved Solids so you have no idea how much calcium and magnesium is in the water. It may be all calcium and no magnesium. Hardness has very little to do with industry. In industrialized areas you are more likely to have acid rain, heavy metals and sulfur compounds in your water. I have to say I disagree with your assertion that 50 ppm and over is very hard water. Usually water isn't classed as hard until it reaches around 200 ppm. In fact I have a book by Ed Rosenthal called the Marijuana Garden Saver. It recommends you adjust your water up to 150ppm with cal/mag if you are using distilled-r/o or soft tapwater (you would want to adjust the ppm down if using hardwater). I wrestled with cal-mag deficincies until I started doing this. Ever since I've had no problems with these deficiencies so I would say it's pretty sound info in my experience. :weed:
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I never said Industry effects hardness. Your correct, not all solids become dissolved by the ultimate solvent(water). I also didnt say exactly that 50ppm and over was VERY hard or VERY high in TDS, its just high to me when Im feeding my plants some unknown dissolved solid. I'd rather not. If your feeding with R/O water then I can understand your point with haveing to add Calmag supplement since calcium and magnesium are some of the most abundent solids sources in water. When you use R/O dont you remove those solids?....Yes, then ofcourse you will have to add back in the Cal Mag.

What if water was @ 200ppm with a GPG of 1. Is it still hard water??????Lemme know.:weed:
 
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