Water: Ro or not to RO, that is my question

jaibyrd7

jaibyrd7

Well-Known Member
Hey all. I have recently switched to a new set up and have a question.

Some background: I have switched to FF/Happy Frog soil and the General Organics lineup. This is indoors in a 5-6 sq.ft tent, w/ a 400w mh/hps cooltube set up. I just finished my second run and i'm having the same trouble each time. Everything is finishing, but just barely. Im feeding along their schedule, but they're starving. I'm seeing N/P/K def's across all strains. Fading, very light green leaves, twisting/contorted leaf tips, leaf spots w/ necrosis, purple stems, everything yellowing out, all equaling low yields. But they finished.

My first thought was pH. Tapwater: 6.7-6.9 Always. So that's good. 6.8 going in, 6.5-6.6 coming out, works for me. Started filtering my water thru a faucet mount PUR carbon filter just to cut out the chlorine/chloramines, wondering if maybe that was killing my microlife, starving my plants. Didn't make a difference, maybe the filter doesn't work, who knows. Back to the pH. Watering is fine, now about the nutes. I would mix the nutes per schedule, cal-mag only when I feed. (Water, feed, water, feed... every other day.) I would then pH the nutes to 6.8 and feed. Plenty of food, same results. Then I read no one pH's organic/soil set ups, the soil buffers and handles it. And more importantly, it says right on the GroBox not to pH the nutes. So I stop adusting it (pH is 5.6-5.8) and guess what, naughta damn thing, lol, nothing. Didn't make a damn bit of difference. I'm sticking with not pHing tho, that's way easier if it doesn't matter.

W.T.H.?

Then I read that if you have a high PPM water, that adding cal/mag every feeding can cause nute lockout. That would explain my wide problem. So where in the hell is that EC/TDS meter I used to use for hydro? I get it calibrated and it says my tapwater is at 123ppm. Now when I did hydro, over 200ppm was considered hard water and they made a different micro. BUT I read that anything over 30-50ppm is undesirable growing organic. To much cal/mag they say. So I stopped using the cal/mag altogether. Problem is is that it was now 3 weeks til finish and time to start flushing. I have no idea, but I don't want it to do it again next time. Ive taken some cuts to a buddys and they do great. He follows Foxfarm's 6 part plus cal/mag at every feeding and no problem. Big, green and healthy. His tapwater is 31ppm.

So my questions are: Is 123ppm to hard for my water and could the addition of cal/mag be locking me out? Should I buy a filter and switch to RO water? Has anyone had a problem like this and find a solution? Lol, am I even in the right ball park?

Thanks, I really appreciate your time and thoughts.
 
Flagg420

Flagg420

Well-Known Member
water source?

If its city water... treated... the chlorines and chloramines are killing off micro-biota...

RO removes those nasties... but it also removes the cal/mag in the process... so u add it back in...

So your answer, is yes, RO filter, and add cal/mag

(if ur off a well, ur 123ppm is fine)
 
redzi

redzi

Well-Known Member
Google ascorbic acid to treat ascorbic acid and you come up with some info from the good people who make vit. C that chloramines can even show up in distilled water...got my doubts. I do know that since I have a ph of 8 that 400mg of the pure powdered form per gallon takes my PH to 6.6 and I can no longer smell the chlorine. If this stuff helps with knocking down the chloramine I should have to add no neuts. to my end flowering stage. I should already have plenty of N and K with a ratio of 2 FF Ocean 1.5 to 1 Roots Organics to .5 General Hydroponics Alaska Humus. If things get to hot I will just knock down those microbes with some tap water and next time just add some coco coir.

The first time I read of this ascorbic acid thing was in a paper by the feds to water treatment personnel to use 100 mg per liter if there is going to be a release of chlorine or chloramine treated water into a river or lake. If I had a reef tank I would go with the RO filter that is sold on Amazon for $64 ... by purewaterclub. it is slow at 60 GPD but perfect for ice makers that have to be replaced because of hard water.
 
Rrog

Rrog

Well-Known Member
If it's natural soil, just leave it as RO. Same as rainwater

Carbon filtration works poorly to remove Cl. Technically carbon can adsorb Cl, but it needs long exposure to the carbon. So from a practical perspective, a carbon filter will not significantly remove Cl or Chloramine. You can get a special optimized filter for this, however. No biggie.

Or just take your Cl water and add a bit of compost to lock up all the Cl
 
green_machine_two9er

green_machine_two9er

Well-Known Member
jaibyrd7 said:
Hey all. I have recently switched to a new set up and have a question.

Some background: I have switched to FF/Happy Frog soil and the General Organics lineup. This is indoors in a 5-6 sq.ft tent, w/ a 400w mh/hps cooltube set up. I just finished my second run and i'm having the same trouble each time. Everything is finishing, but just barely. Im feeding along their schedule, but they're starving. I'm seeing N/P/K def's across all strains. Fading, very light green leaves, twisting/contorted leaf tips, leaf spots w/ necrosis, purple stems, everything yellowing out, all equaling low yields. But they finished.

My first thought was pH. Tapwater: 6.7-6.9 Always. So that's good. 6.8 going in, 6.5-6.6 coming out, works for me. Started filtering my water thru a faucet mount PUR carbon filter just to cut out the chlorine/chloramines, wondering if maybe that was killing my microlife, starving my plants. Didn't make a difference, maybe the filter doesn't work, who knows. Back to the pH. Watering is fine, now about the nutes. I would mix the nutes per schedule, cal-mag only when I feed. (Water, feed, water, feed... every other day.) I would then pH the nutes to 6.8 and feed. Plenty of food, same results. Then I read no one pH's organic/soil set ups, the soil buffers and handles it. And more importantly, it says right on the GroBox not to pH the nutes. So I stop adusting it (pH is 5.6-5.8) and guess what, naughta damn thing, lol, nothing. Didn't make a damn bit of difference. I'm sticking with not pHing tho, that's way easier if it doesn't matter.

W.T.H.?

Then I read that if you have a high PPM water, that adding cal/mag every feeding can cause nute lockout. That would explain my wide problem. So where in the hell is that EC/TDS meter I used to use for hydro? I get it calibrated and it says my tapwater is at 123ppm. Now when I did hydro, over 200ppm was considered hard water and they made a different micro. BUT I read that anything over 30-50ppm is undesirable growing organic. To much cal/mag they say. So I stopped using the cal/mag altogether. Problem is is that it was now 3 weeks til finish and time to start flushing. I have no idea, but I don't want it to do it again next time. Ive taken some cuts to a buddys and they do great. He follows Foxfarm's 6 part plus cal/mag at every feeding and no problem. Big, green and healthy. His tapwater is 31ppm.

So my questions are: Is 123ppm to hard for my water and could the addition of cal/mag be locking me out? Should I buy a filter and switch to RO water? Has anyone had a problem like this and find a solution? Lol, am I even in the right ball park?

Thanks, I really appreciate your time and thoughts.
Click to expand...

Now for your problems. sounds like lockout to me. Heres what i would do if you want to continue with the GO. drop your feeding to 1/2 of manufacture recommedations. maybe even a 1/4. also i wouldnt feed until flowering if your in good soil. try mixing ocean forrest with the happy frog for a more nutrient stable veging soil. than feed lightly as the ladies need it. Or just go soiless. Coir or something wroks better ime than soil with nutrient lines.

Making soil from scartch is easy. especially in a small tent type grow. 3rd time is not always the charm. so if this isnt working for you already maybe think about making the switch away from the hydro store growing mentalitly. ammended recycled soil is the way to go! zero headache. zero store bought products, zero flushing. water only. cant beat it!

BTW my water comes out 200-250 from the well. no filter needed, no phing. i dont lose one leaf until 8 or 9 weeks. and thats just a yellow one or two at the bottum as my N starts to run out.
 
hotrodharley

hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
Rrog said:
If it's natural soil, just leave it as RO. Same as rainwater

Carbon filtration works poorly to remove Cl. Technically carbon can adsorb Cl, but it needs long exposure to the carbon. So from a practical perspective, a carbon filter will not significantly remove Cl or Chloramine. You can get a special optimized filter for this, however. No biggie.

Or just take your Cl water and add a bit of compost to lock up all the Cl
Click to expand...
Carbon is what removes chlorine.Learn what you are talking about. Activated carbon filters, plural, are in place in RO systems with one function and one function only - removing chlorine.
 
Rrog

Rrog

Well-Known Member
Check the 'tude dood. Google it. A quick casual contact with carbon isn't enough to consider it filtered, hence the more specialized filters

Still better to add some compost to bind up the Cl
 
hotrodharley

hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
Rrog said:
Check the 'tude dood. Google it. A quick casual contact with carbon isn't enough to consider it filtered, hence the more specialized filters

Still better to add some compost to bind up the Cl
Click to expand...
Who said a "quick casual contact"?Are you a water expert?
 
hotrodharley

hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
While not claiming to be a water expert was a dialysis nurse for years. That is as close as journeymen get. I know RO and carbon filtration along with sandbedding and UV disinfection.

http://www.purewaterproducts.com/articles/carbon

"Chlorine was not considered in the discussion above because EPA does not consider it a water contaminant. Although this is patently absurd, it is also politically expedient and not likely to change soon. (Keep in mind that all EPA maximum contaminant allowables are politically negotiated figures that do not necessarily have any basis in reality. They represent a compromise between the ideal and what can practically be done by water treatment plants.) Chlorine removal is what carbon is best at, and nothing else equals carbon's ability to remove chlorine.
 
Rrog

Rrog

Well-Known Member
Total stone-out. You're right. I was recalling an RO filter's poor ability to remove Cl.

I worked as a dialysis tech for a couple years in the early 80's while going to school. Not that it's relevant
 
hotrodharley

hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
Bugeye said:
I believe you are correct on chlorine. For chloramine, I think you need a carbon filter and RO to remove the amonia elements? True?
Click to expand...
In dialysis the first step stop in the line in is dual carbon filters. Huge sonsofbitches about 8' tall and a yard across. Recharging or re-bedding is a Sunday job for the tech. The next is a UV light which is used to actually help remove chloramines and kill pathogens. By the time "city water"hits the RO system is has been through a softener as well.The chloramines are hell on membranes and our membranes cost almost $3K apiece and changing just one only could happen about twice before the second had to be replaced as well. But membrane preservation is always first and foremost due to performance obviously but also for costs. The progressively smaller micron filters on the incoming city water are used exactly for that reason - to remove membrane damaging contaminants.
 
Bugeye

Bugeye

Well-Known Member
hotrodharley said:
In dialysis the first step stop in the line in is dual carbon filters. Huge sonsofbitches about 8' tall and a yard across. Recharging or re-bedding is a Sunday job for the tech. The next is a UV light which is used to actually help remove chloramines and kill pathogens. By the time "city water"hits the RO system is has been through a softener as well.The chloramines are hell on membranes and our membranes cost almost $3K apiece and changing just one only could happen about twice before the second had to be replaced as well. But membrane preservation is always first and foremost due to performance obviously but also for costs. The progressively smaller micron filters on the incoming city water are used exactly for that reason - to remove membrane damaging contaminants.
Click to expand...
Your hospital didn't let their water sit overnight? :o :bigjoint:
 
Forte

Forte

Well-Known Member
jaibyrd7 said:
Hey all. I have recently switched to a new set up and have a question.

Some background: I have switched to FF/Happy Frog soil and the General Organics lineup. This is indoors in a 5-6 sq.ft tent, w/ a 400w mh/hps cooltube set up. I just finished my second run and i'm having the same trouble each time. Everything is finishing, but just barely. Im feeding along their schedule, but they're starving. I'm seeing N/P/K def's across all strains. Fading, very light green leaves, twisting/contorted leaf tips, leaf spots w/ necrosis, purple stems, everything yellowing out, all equaling low yields. But they finished.

My first thought was pH. Tapwater: 6.7-6.9 Always. So that's good. 6.8 going in, 6.5-6.6 coming out, works for me. Started filtering my water thru a faucet mount PUR carbon filter just to cut out the chlorine/chloramines, wondering if maybe that was killing my microlife, starving my plants. Didn't make a difference, maybe the filter doesn't work, who knows. Back to the pH. Watering is fine, now about the nutes. I would mix the nutes per schedule, cal-mag only when I feed. (Water, feed, water, feed... every other day.) I would then pH the nutes to 6.8 and feed. Plenty of food, same results. Then I read no one pH's organic/soil set ups, the soil buffers and handles it. And more importantly, it says right on the GroBox not to pH the nutes. So I stop adusting it (pH is 5.6-5.8) and guess what, naughta damn thing, lol, nothing. Didn't make a damn bit of difference. I'm sticking with not pHing tho, that's way easier if it doesn't matter.

W.T.H.?

Then I read that if you have a high PPM water, that adding cal/mag every feeding can cause nute lockout. That would explain my wide problem. So where in the hell is that EC/TDS meter I used to use for hydro? I get it calibrated and it says my tapwater is at 123ppm. Now when I did hydro, over 200ppm was considered hard water and they made a different micro. BUT I read that anything over 30-50ppm is undesirable growing organic. To much cal/mag they say. So I stopped using the cal/mag altogether. Problem is is that it was now 3 weeks til finish and time to start flushing. I have no idea, but I don't want it to do it again next time. Ive taken some cuts to a buddys and they do great. He follows Foxfarm's 6 part plus cal/mag at every feeding and no problem. Big, green and healthy. His tapwater is 31ppm.

So my questions are: Is 123ppm to hard for my water and could the addition of cal/mag be locking me out? Should I buy a filter and switch to RO water? Has anyone had a problem like this and find a solution? Lol, am I even in the right ball park?

Thanks, I really appreciate your time and thoughts.
Click to expand...
I use absorbic acid to get rid of chloramine. 1/4tsp treats 40-50 gallons of tap water.
 
vostok

vostok

Well-Known Member
I'd be sticking wi the local water or suffer (Mg) def, in weeks to come ..unless you want the extra hassle of calmag addition,
but yeah, do keep an eye of you ppm levels..better to find a local well?
 
Dr.4:20

Dr.4:20

Member
I started using the water from my dehumidifier a couple weeks ago, now I have what looks like mag deficiencies in both tents :cuss:. My well water is 6.5ph and around 300 ppm, I just wanted to give the well a break but not like that. You think I'd be ok don't half and half?
 
green_machine_two9er

green_machine_two9er

Well-Known Member
Dr.4:20 said:
I started using the water from my dehumidifier a couple weeks ago, now I have what looks like mag deficiencies in both tents :cuss:. My well water is 6.5ph and around 300 ppm, I just wanted to give the well a break but not like that. You think I'd be ok don't half and half?
Click to expand...
No!!! Ive heard and seen mahor problems with dehum water. Water will most likely have heavy metals in it after runbing throgh compressor. Also. Think aboit pathogens and molds that mosy likely live in snall crevices and elbows inside dehum unit. Go back to your well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top