view on s1 please no hate

Cold$moke

Cold$moke

Well-Known Member
Hi all okay heres the latest questions I've been asking myself.
My friend has a 20 + year old cut. The flav and smells are super unique .high is great just nice.
the prob is the plant is weak. As long as you do your part shell preform but look at it wrong and she slows.

my question and I have asked on a couple threads before I found the breeders is
Are s1 bad will making s1 increase vigor?
or should I go with the other route of find a good male with similar traits and keep breeding till I'm happy?
thanks also these beans are for me so don't worry about me giving away muddy genetics
 
ghb

ghb

Well-Known Member
the best stuff i have grown was an s1 of DOG kush, it threw out male flowers though, hardly any seeds to be found but great smoke
 
Cold$moke

Cold$moke

Well-Known Member
ghb said:
the best stuff i have grown was an s1 of DOG kush, it threw out male flowers though, hardly any seeds to be found but great smoke
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Nice thanks for responding.
Did you think it had more vigor than the original.
Also did the flav and smell stay the same
 
ghb

ghb

Well-Known Member
i never tried the original sorry, the s1 was fantastic though, very vigorous grower with a tonne of resin
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Cold$moke said:
Are s1 bad will making s1 increase vigor?
or should I go with the other route of find a good male with similar traits and keep breeding till I'm happy?
thanks also these beans are for me so don't worry about me giving away muddy genetics
Click to expand...
It's not necessarily bad or good, depends a lot on the genotypes. The main point of selfing is to increase stability (because you don't introduce genes from another plant), not to improve the strain. To increase vigor you either need to remix the genes or introduce new genes. The more genes you work with, the more chances there's a mix with a gene combi that leads to increased vigor but is still similar to the cut.

Since it's clone only you don't have a lot of options, you obviously can't introduce new genes without using a male (or reversed female) from another clone or seed. Obviously with 1 plant you have less to work with.

The best way, imo, as in what I would do in this scenario, is back crossing. Pop seeds with similar genetics, select the most vigorous males and cross those with the cut you have. From the plants you get from the resulting seeds, pick the most vigorous that are most like the cut (which yes may be a little hard to determine but detecting smell is doable) and then cross back those to that clone again. Repeat that 3-5 times and you will end up with something very similar to that cut, but likely even better (depending on what you select and cross it with of course). See my backcrossing thread in this forum for more details.

Another possible option is tissue culture to rejuvenate the clone but that's easier said than done...
 
Cold$moke

Cold$moke

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
It's not necessarily bad or good, depends a lot on the genotypes. The main point of selfing is to increase stability (because you don't introduce genes from another plant), not to improve the strain. To increase vigor you either need to remix the genes or introduce new genes. The more genes you work with, the more chances there's a mix with a gene combi that leads to increased vigor but is still similar to the cut.

Since it's clone only you don't have a lot of options, you obviously can't introduce new genes without using a male (or reversed female) from another clone or seed. Obviously with 1 plant you have less to work with.

The best way, imo, as in what I would do in this scenario, is back crossing. Pop seeds with similar genetics, select the most vigorous males and cross those with the cut you have. From the plants you get from the resulting seeds, pick the most vigorous that are most like the cut (which yes may be a little hard to determine but detecting smell is doable) and then cross back those to that clone again. Repeat that 3-5 times and you will end up with something very similar to that cut, but likely even better (depending on what you select and cross it with of course). See my backcrossing thread in this forum for more details.

Another possible option is tissue culture to rejuvenate the clone but that's easier said than done...
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THANKS that was exactly what I was thinking . Much appreciated.
Would something like tga vortex or timewreck or bodhi snow leopard be genetically diverse enough ?
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Since you goal is specifically vigor while retaining the favorable traits of that clone I suggest using a strain that is the same or similar to one or more parents in the line of that cut you got. If the cut for example is an OG Kush variety use OG Kush. By itself, if you're actually going to back cross for several generations, it doesn't matter a whole lot since eventually most genes will still come from that recurrent parent, the cut. There will of course, especially in the first several backcross generations, be a lot of variation if you'd choose something very different than the cut. So pick something similar, not with a much longer flower time or a sativa if the cut is indica dom.

upload_2014-10-29_23-43-17.png

The increasing purple part is the percentage of genes every generation will have from the cut. In your case you want for example that 6.25 or that 3.125 to be from the other strain you add to the gene pool.
 
Cold$moke

Cold$moke

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
Since you goal is specifically vigor while retaining the favorable traits of that clone I suggest using a strain that is the same or similar to one or more parents in the line of that cut you got. If the cut for example is an OG Kush variety use OG Kush. By itself, if you're actually going to back cross for several generations, it doesn't matter a whole lot since eventually most genes will still come from that recurrent parent, the cut. There will of course, especially in the first several backcross generations, be a lot of variation if you'd choose something very different than the cut. So pick something similar, not with a much longer flower time or a sativa if the cut is indica dom.

View attachment 3283308

The increasing purple part is the percentage of genes every generation will have from the cut. In your case you want for example that 6.25 or that 3.125 to be from the other strain you add to the gene pool.
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@Sativied thank you very much this IS the type of info I was looking for .
Wish I had more info on the the lineage but the dude that has kinda sucks as a grower but his plants flav makes up lol

and when I've done it it was great but could be better.
not knowing the parents of the cut its hard for me to nail down what would be good for it .


my description is short, fat dark green leaves very red haired at the end , pretty dense .

the flav and smell is hardest as I Don't know if I smell the same as the breeders lol.
But I smell a sweet fruity but not berry or citrus that's Sour ?


I figured it might go with the vortex as the bud looks very similar and subs description of fruity baby poo (lmao) is about the closest I can think of without physically smelling them .

Mabey chemm smell but I don't have any first hand with chem Either so I'm not sure.

rambling any ways thank you
 
Cold$moke

Cold$moke

Well-Known Member
Come to think of it I guess I dont care if the whole plant changed except smell and flav unless they are better lol oh so many beans too little time and space
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Cold$moke said:
Come to think of it I guess I dont care if the whole plant changed except smell and flav
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In that case you can turn it around and backcross the taste/smell into another already stable and vigorous strain. So instead of backcrossing for multiple generations to that clone only, you first cross the clone only with for example a kush or haze strain, and continue to cross back the offspring that has the desired taste and smell to that same kush or haze plant. The goal would be to have that 6.25 or 3.125% include the taste/smell from the clone-only. That's actually the typical purpose of backcrossing (outside the cannabis industry anyway), crossing 'a' trait into an established strain, like adding some sort of disease resistance or color (or auto flower genes...), but as little of the remaining genes of the trait donor plant. It is the example scenario I described in this post: http://rollitup.org/t/backcrossing-your-own-variety.840329/#post-10762639
 
Cold$moke

Cold$moke

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
In that case you can turn it around and backcross the taste/smell into another already stable and vigorous strain. So instead of backcrossing for multiple generations to that clone only, you first cross the clone only with for example a kush or haze strain, and continue to cross back the offspring that has the desired taste and smell to that same kush or haze plant. The goal would be to have that 6.25 or 3.125% include the taste/smell from the clone-only. That's actually the typical purpose of backcrossing (outside the cannabis industry anyway), crossing 'a' trait into an established strain, like adding some sort of disease resistance or color (or auto flower genes...), but as little of the remaining genes of the trait donor plant. It is the example scenario I described in this post: http://rollitup.org/t/backcrossing-your-own-variety.840329/#post-10762639
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Again absolutely stellar information thank you Sir .
would you say flav and smell profile is more dominant with males or females or is it to close to call.
And since you've been so helpful who's a good breeder you recommend for said stable genetics .
thanks again
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Cold$moke said:
Again absolutely stellar information thank you Sir .
would you say flav and smell profile is more dominant with males or females or is it to close to call.
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The desired genes can come from both males and females but to detect both flavor and smell properly you need to grow, dry and smoke bud. You can smell males (leaves and stems) and actually get a rough idea in some cases but never as accurate as you can from smoking or vaping bud. In case of the situation in my previous reply, you cross that clone you got with a male from a stable line. Keep a clone of that male. From the resulting seeds, grow out multiple females, pollenate them with that same male again. At the end of each run, select the females that are most like that flavor and smell, and collect the seeds of those. Grow out females from those, cross back to that same male again. etc etc.

Especially when it comes to flavor and smell it's hard to predict the outcome though. It's possible the taste isn't even present in the first generation, the initial cross that is (if it's recessive). If the flavor/taste of your cut happens to be dominant over the flavor/taste of the plant your cross it in to it will be easy to select, but there's only one way to find out if that's the case. You can increase your chances of finding a suitable target simply by crossing that cut with 2 or even more other strains.

Cold$moke said:
And since you've been so helpful who's a good breeder you recommend for said stable genetics.
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Not a lot of breeders actually breed true, as in stable for someone else to breed with. Many of those who do use those to create their own hybrids or backcrosses and don't really the stable lines they have. I don't really know who's a good breeder in this context. Best to avoid using an F1 hybrid, or an unfinished F2 or F3. Ideally that target strain is an IBL, like an F5, a BX4, or one that is just known to be stable. Not something someone pollen chucked together based on someone else's pollen chucks.
 
Cold$moke

Cold$moke

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
The desired genes can come from both males and females but to detect both flavor and smell properly you need to grow, dry and smoke bud. You can smell males (leaves and stems) and actually get a rough idea in some cases but never as accurate as you can from smoking or vaping bud. In case of the situation in my previous reply, you cross that clone you got with a male from a stable line. Keep a clone of that male. From the resulting seeds, grow out multiple females, pollenate them with that same male again. At the end of each run, select the females that are most like that flavor and smell, and collect the seeds of those. Grow out females from those, cross back to that same male again. etc etc.

Especially when it comes to flavor and smell it's hard to predict the outcome though. It's possible the taste isn't even present in the first generation, the initial cross that is (if it's recessive). If the flavor/taste of your cut happens to be dominant over the flavor/taste of the plant your cross it in to it will be easy to select, but there's only one way to find out if that's the case. You can increase your chances of finding a suitable target simply by crossing that cut with 2 or even more other strains.

Not a lot of breeders actually breed true, as in stable for someone else to breed with. Many of those who do use those to create their own hybrids or backcrosses and don't really the stable lines they have. I don't really know who's a good breeder in this context. Best to avoid using an F1 hybrid, or an unfinished F2 or F3. Ideally that target strain is an IBL, like an F5, a BX4, or one that is just known to be stable. Not something someone pollen chucked together based on someone else's pollen chucks.
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Ok so im going to do the right thing and buckle down for a lot of smoking lol.
Jokes aside I appreciate your time and knowledge man thank you. I enjoy your thorough answers.
Opinion on tga apollo13 bx. True backcross or polin chucker only?
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
http://en.seedfinder.eu/strain-info/Apollo_13_BX/TGA_Subcool_Seeds/

A quick look seems to indicate that is a BX1 of a double cross which no I wouldnt consider suitable. There are good candidates in its lineage though. I.e. you'd be better off using something they used to create their crosses than their crosses itself (which already have a narrowed down genepool) unless they offer a cross they specifically stablelized for multiple generations.
 
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Cold$moke

Cold$moke

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
http://en.seedfinder.eu/strain-info/Apollo_13_BX/TGA_Subcool_Seeds/

A quick look seems to indicate that is a BX1 of a double cross which no I wouldnt consider suitable. There are good candidates in its lineage though. I.e. you'd be better of using something they used to create their crosses than their crosses itself (which already have a narrowed down genepool) unless they offer a cross they specifically stablelized for multiple generations.
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Ok thanks again now I have a lot better of an idea for where to start ..my feeling was right lol .
again thanks
 
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