Unions arent bad

Canna Sylvan

Well-Known Member
The major reason unions are bad is they stiffle innovation by not allowing technology to replace unnecessary workers. So other countries like who don't have such limitations can get ahead of us.

Which is why I call then communist.
 

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
Good god i could find a thousand points of ignorance in each of your posts,1st off these pension funds that you claim is taking payroll $ away from police & fire dept are a smoke screen,who do you think collects these big ass pensions ? Police & fire thats who,now after risking their lives for 30 yrs some anti union goon wants to take away their pension,if you were truly educated about Detroit city pensions you'd know the average pension is less than $3,000 a month,i couldnt live on $3k a month but police & firemen do & you begrudge them that pittance of a pension they do collect ? FYI AFSCME workers pensions are directly in line with Ford Motors pensions which equals roughly $100 for each yr of service,not much more than social security .


You bash unions for using members dues to further the unions interests but thats exactly what union dues are for,to lobby against MEGA anti union lobby groups such as the ABC,the ABC spends BILLIONS of $ each yr lobbying for anti union legaslation & to repeal prevailing wage laws,the money funding the ABC group is 100% from non union corporations,if they have billions to donate to lobby groups why not give liveable wages to their employees ?

Its normal for underpaid & overworked workers to lash out in times of high unemployment & point the finger at unions but you miss the big picture,unions are fighting tooth n nail to keep jobs in the USA & lobbying on non union workers behalf as well,to keep prevailing wage laws in place so your city cant fund public jobs where workers are paid minimum wage,so even a non union worker can make union wages while working on government jobs.

What do you have against making a good living anyway ? Do you enjoy working overtime every week instead of spending time with your family ? Do you enjoy banking hours worked,or donating any hours past 40 so you can look good to the boss ? Do you enjoy having an IRA that YOU have to fund & if you put too much $ per hour in your IRA having your employer lay you off because they dont want to match your contribution ? If so then non union is perfect for you.

Me personally i dont want to be financially forced to work overtime in order to make ends meet,i love my family & want to spend time with them,i want a nice home without a 30 year mortgage,i want new cars for me & the wife every year,i want to take vacations each year,i want enough money in the bank i wont loose everything if im out of work for a few months,i want a boat & motorcycles,all the nice things the anti union corporate big shots lavish on thier families,are you worth less than your boss ? Is your contribution to the company you work for so insignificant you wont stand up & demand a FAIR slice of the pie ?

The anti union lobbiests have done a great job of brainwashing an entire generation to blame unions for our shit economy,all the while the Bernie Maddoff types get golden parachutes,non union elected officials are making record breaking salaries & the banks bailed out with our tax dollars gave away 25% of our tax dollars to theirselves as bonuses,must of been for the great job all these non union guys have done with our economy.

Instead of being pissed at the union workers in Detroit write your congressmen & complain about the enormous pay raises just given to the Director & assistant director of DIA detroit institute of arts,the museaum is currently forced to sell off much of its art collections to keep the doors open yet the NON UNION management finds money to pay the directors over a half million $ salaries each,where i come from if the business your controlling is loosing money management dont get raises,the non union management of DIA gets 33% pay increases & you blame unions for Detroits cash crisis,

You really need to read more about the non union leadership of detroit & the salaries they collect which add up in the hundreds of millions.
I am not going to address this point by point. You try to tug at the heart strings, you talk about good livings and promises, etc. You ignore the fact that politicians are not accountants and detroit is BANKRUPT... It doesnt matter how rightfully you feel the pensions are, it has cost the city its financial stability.

The private sector moved away from pensions because they realized they couldnt afford them.

The days of working 20 years for a pension and then collecting 80% for the next 40 - 50 years is over. Financially it is unsustainable.

Detroit is not the only example of union payrolls and pensions bankrupting cities and states and it sure as hell wont be the last.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
I am not going to address this point by point. You try to tug at the heart strings, you talk about good livings and promises, etc. You ignore the fact that politicians are not accountants and detroit is BANKRUPT... It doesnt matter how rightfully you feel the pensions are, it has cost the city its financial stability.

The private sector moved away from pensions because they realized they couldnt afford them.

The days of working 20 years for a pension and then collecting 80% for the next 40 - 50 years is over. Financially it is unsustainable.

Detroit is not the only example of union payrolls and pensions bankrupting cities and states and it sure as hell wont be the last.
unions bankrupting detroit is just as likely as a forest fire cooling the globe or iran being landlocked.

simple mental retardation.
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
I am not going to address this point by point. You try to tug at the heart strings, you talk about good livings and promises, etc. You ignore the fact that politicians are not accountants and detroit is BANKRUPT... It doesnt matter how rightfully you feel the pensions are, it has cost the city its financial stability.

The private sector moved away from pensions because they realized they couldnt afford them.

The days of working 20 years for a pension and then collecting 80% for the next 40 - 50 years is over. Financially it is unsustainable.

Detroit is not the only example of union payrolls and pensions bankrupting cities and states and it sure as hell wont be the last.
Speak for yourself Manuel

manuel labor
 

Canna Sylvan

Well-Known Member
Nope.
I use cad cam and Robots can only be utilized where the amortization and aquisition costs make it worth it.

BTW
Robots fuck up all the time
That's now. Eventually AI will become good enough. There's a limit how small you can make silicon before the laws of quantum physics take over. If it can be quantified, it can become automated. You also save on lights. Which is why it's called lights out manufacturing.
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
That's now. Eventually AI will become good enough. There's a limit how small you can make silicon before the laws of quantum physics take over. If it can be quantified, it can become automated. You also save on lights. Which is why it's called lights out manufacturing.
We will al be dead and buried when that day finally comes
And lights out manufacturing refers right now to running a machine unatended and is limited in scope to how much you wish to gamble that something bad doesnt happen before it shuts down while no one is around
 

Canna Sylvan

Well-Known Member
We will al be dead and buried when that day finally comes
And lights out manufacturing refers right now to running a machine unatended and is limited in scope to how much you wish to gamble that something bad doesnt happen before it shuts down while no one is around
When I was a kid about 30 years ago, if I had said almost the whole population would have a phone the size of a candy bar for under $100 and could make unlimited calls anywhere for $30 a month, everyone would've called me crazy. 30 years before that a candy bar sized android device alone which is magnitudes faster and more memory than a computer the size of a warehouse would've git the same chuckle.

We have the technology to do what I talk about now. The only thing holding it back is the software being made public.
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
When I was a kid about 30 years ago, if I had said almost the whole population would have a phone the size of a candy bar for under $100 and could make unlimited calls anywhere for $30 a month, everyone would've called me crazy. 30 years before that a candy bar sized android device alone which is magnitudes faster and more memory than a computer the size of a warehouse would've git the same chuckle.

We have the technology to do what I talk about now. The only thing holding it back is the software being made public.
And there you have it
 

Red1966

Well-Known Member
I'm not about to try and guess your profession, and then google it. Impossible.
But, when comparing union to non-union jobs, you must compare the total amount an employer pays, for every hour you work;-)

BTW, Just because you make more "taxable" an hour, does not mean shit(if you even do)
Pension? Annuity? Do you pay out of pocket for healthcare?......
I had the choice of a pension or 401k. The state contributes based on a percentage of your income. I used to get almost double the amount union employees do, but not as much as when I started, thanks to Rick Scott.. I have the same choice of health plans as the union employees, but pay slightly less. I get 30% more paid leave than union employees.
 

Red1966

Well-Known Member
Duke,

Eventually robotics and cad cam are going to make your work extinct. Just accept it.
You're mistaken. Skilled machinist are more in demand than ever. Robotics can only replace production employees, not the upper level machinists. I haven't been unemployed for more than one day since I was in my 20's. Nearly every one thought as you did in the 80's, so they quit providing apprentiship programs. Thus creating a shortage of skilled machinists.
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
I am not going to address this point by point. You try to tug at the heart strings, you talk about good livings and promises, etc. You ignore the fact that politicians are not accountants and detroit is BANKRUPT... It doesnt matter how rightfully you feel the pensions are, it has cost the city its financial stability.

The private sector moved away from pensions because they realized they couldnt afford them.

The days of working 20 years for a pension and then collecting 80% for the next 40 - 50 years is over. Financially it is unsustainable.

Detroit is not the only example of union payrolls and pensions bankrupting cities and states and it sure as hell wont be the last.
Tugging at heart strings huh ? The misinformation most anti union people is allways the same & they never back up their stand with facts,i quote hard nailed facts & you chose to dismiss them & come back with blah blah blah nonsense,its obvious you know very little about Detroits politics & the hundreds of millions of $ the non union city managers & mayors mismanaged over the last 30 yrs & are just throwing your 2 cents in so you have something to post.

Here's another fact im sure you'll blow off,the total unionized labor in Detroit equals 6.7% of their labor force but you think that percentage is causing Detroits bankruptcy,selective blindness at work here.

How about addressing the FACT where Detroits peice of shit ex mayor Kwami Killpatrick & his non union cronies gave away & imbezzled between $20 to $50 million dollars in unlawfully bid construction contracts,all contractors were inner city small businesses & non union as well.

I personally witnessed a concrete contractor get paid to replace sidewalks & a massive parking lot 3 times for the same work,King Kwamies cronies poured everything at the start of the project & then the other scab contractors drove cranes,bulldozers & forklifts all over new concrete,smashing it to bits,they repeated that scenario 3 times before the job was done & got paid all 3 times,or when kwamies scab masons & plumbers built the bathrooms on the wrong side of the community center & got paid,then got paid again to tear it all out & rebuild the bathrooms in their correct location,all non union labor & all public record used to convict the mayor.

Kwamies architect also made the roofers tear off & replace & 20 yr guaranteed roof that cost $120,000 & was only 2 yrs old so they could install an inferior 5 yr guarantee roof & get paid again because the new non union roofer was a friend of the mayors girlfriend .

Take the multi millions of $ the non union politicians & upper level management of Detroit stole,imbezeled,spent on their families & used to pad illegally bid non union contracts & put it in Detroits pension plans & like magic the plans would leave critical status & be fully funded overnight.

Corrupt non union management caused Detroits economic meltdown of pensions,not unions or their management.

Atleast google some shit so you can look like you know something about Detroits politics before jumping in.
 

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
Tugging at heart strings huh ? The misinformation most anti union people is allways the same & they never back up their stand with facts,i quote hard nailed facts & you chose to dismiss them & come back with blah blah blah nonsense,its obvious you know very little about Detroits politics & the hundreds of millions of $ the non union city managers & mayors mismanaged over the last 30 yrs & are just throwing your 2 cents in so you have something to post.

Here's another fact im sure you'll blow off,the total unionized labor in Detroit equals 6.7% of their labor force but you think that percentage is causing Detroits bankruptcy,selective blindness at work here.

How about addressing the FACT where Detroits peice of shit ex mayor Kwami Killpatrick & his non union cronies gave away & imbezzled between $20 to $50 million dollars in unlawfully bid construction contracts,all contractors were inner city small businesses & non union as well.

I personally witnessed a concrete contractor get paid to replace sidewalks & a massive parking lot 3 times for the same work,King Kwamies cronies poured everything at the start of the project & then the other scab contractors drove cranes,bulldozers & forklifts all over new concrete,smashing it to bits,they repeated that scenario 3 times before the job was done & got paid all 3 times,or when kwamies scab masons & plumbers built the bathrooms on the wrong side of the community center & got paid,then got paid again to tear it all out & rebuild the bathrooms in their correct location,all non union labor & all public record used to convict the mayor.

Kwamies architect also made the roofers tear off & replace & 20 yr guaranteed roof that cost $120,000 & was only 2 yrs old so they could install an inferior 5 yr guarantee roof & get paid again because the new non union roofer was a friend of the mayors girlfriend .

Take the multi millions of $ the non union politicians & upper level management of Detroit stole,imbezeled,spent on their families & used to pad illegally bid non union contracts & put it in Detroits pension plans & like magic the plans would leave critical status & be fully funded overnight.

Corrupt non union management caused Detroits economic meltdown of pensions,not unions or their management.

Atleast google some shit so you can look like you know something about Detroits politics before jumping in.
These are the same guys giving unions wages and benefits that are not supportable. Nothing you said is in argument with my points. So there is waste fraud and corruption on top of unsustainable salaries and pensions. Thank you for pointing it out.

Do you have any other gems to add as to why the unions plus the government bankrupted Detroit?
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
unions bankrupting detroit is just as likely as a forest fire cooling the globe or iran being landlocked.

simple mental retardation.
Totally agree.

The major reason unions are bad is they stiffle innovation by not allowing technology to replace unnecessary workers. So other countries like who don't have such limitations can get ahead of us.

Which is why I call then communist.
All i can say is WOW ! Unions stiffle by not allowing innovation to replace workers,where do you come up with that at ? Im 100% sure you've never stepped one foot inside a Ford factory,at Ford Motors humans dont even do the meaningless job of fork lift operators anymore,forklifts have been replaced with GPS guided Robotic wireless forklifts,what you claim about unions stopping technology in the workforce is absolutely backwards.

Due to non union companies being able to pay workers whatever they feel like union manufacturers have been forced to use as much technology & robotics as possible in order to compete with non union sub standard wages.

Union manufacturers & construction contractors are at the forefront of the use of technology,robotics & automation in the workplace.

Your claim of unions holding back technology is baseless & unfounded,nothing can stop technology in the workplace.
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
These are the same guys giving unions wages and benefits that are not supportable. Nothing you said is in argument with my points. So there is waste fraud and corruption on top of unsustainable salaries and pensions. Thank you for pointing it out.

Do you have any other gems to add as to why the unions plus the government bankrupted Detroit?
You cant possibly be that ignorant about finance can you ? Ok i'll go slow so you understand.

If the non union management stops wasting hundreds of millions of $ & stops padding their personal expense accounts the wages & pensions paid to the workers ARE sustainable.

I guess you'd rather see the non union management get rich,buy homes in Florida & invest their ill gotten salaries OUTSIDE of Michigan than see some working stiff be able to pay his bills.

As hard as you try you'll never be able to intelligently dismiss the real reasons Detroit cant fund their union workers pensions,go to youtube & watch the episode of American Greed about the mismanagement of Detroit & learn the facts,with the misinformation your posting here you dont even have a dog in this fight.
 

furnz

Well-Known Member
I used to work under united steel workers working in a paper mill, and I think we payed like 10 bucks a week to the union.
As I understood we couldn't get fired for any reason, but we had to be unsafe or tardy. The union rep worked side by side with us and would fight to keep our jobs if we were trying to be fired and would also make sure the work place was safe.
 

a mongo frog

Well-Known Member
I used to work under united steel workers working in a paper mill, and I think we payed like 10 bucks a week to the union.
As I understood we couldn't get fired for any reason, but we had to be unsafe or tardy. The union rep worked side by side with us and would fight to keep our jobs if we were trying to be fired and would also make sure the work place was safe.
safety cost time, and time is money...
 
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