Ttystikk's vertical goodness

Cannabis.Is.Free

Cannabis.Is.Free

Well-Known Member
I would like your opinion on vert vs normal growing.
I'm very open to ideas and new ways to growing things, from DIY Air growing, DIY DWC, DIY everything, I love it. I love being cheap, because it makes me creative.

Anyway, how do you feel on vert vs hori?
Do you see any positives?
Do you see any negatives?
Does your yield increase or decrease?
Anything you would like me to know?

My next grow, may it be next year or the year after, I'm going with a totally different setup. I wanted to try gravity growing (The pot hangs at the highest point and you force the plant to grow down) or try vert growing.

Not a huge fan of DWC anymore, requires too much baby sitting.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Cannabis.Is.Free said:
I would like your opinion on vert vs normal growing.
I'm very open to ideas and new ways to growing things, from DIY Air growing, DIY DWC, DIY everything, I love it. I love being cheap, because it makes me creative.

Anyway, how do you feel on vert vs hori?
Do you see any positives?
Do you see any negatives?
Does your yield increase or decrease?
Anything you would like me to know?

My next grow, may it be next year or the year after, I'm going with a totally different setup. I wanted to try gravity growing (The pot hangs at the highest point and you force the plant to grow down) or try vert growing.

Not a huge fan of DWC anymore, requires too much baby sitting.
Click to expand...
Halfway thru my first vertical experiment, I trashed my whole horizontal op and converted to vertical. Quality that was 'good' to 'very good' in general with occasional examples of 'excellent' has remained about the same mix, but the yield improved. I haven't yet settled on a final vertical design long enough to produce good averages (I'm after the improvements themselves, not just generating datasets) but I'm completely convinced that unless the demands of the plant itself require another approach, vertical is drastically more efficient. Hey, the plants grow UP too, right? LOL

Having said that, keep in mind that vertical can be done well or poorly, just like any other approach. It can be tempting to toss the baby with the bathwater when dealing with the learning curve, but the gains are there.

I'm completely happy with my RDWC system, which is just DWC that flows around with the help of pumps. In my case, I use just one pump in a 'control bucket', it sits immersed at the bottom with the water to water heat exchange coil around it. It's connected to the tubsites with four 1" lines. The pump thus pulls water from the tubsites and feeds a 1" manifold which then services 1/2" elbows fittings in the lid of each tubsite. The water comes out and creates a waterfall inside the tubsite, aerating thewater, splashing up and humidifying the airspace and agitating the water to help pass nutrients into the roots.

That's right, NO AIR PUMP. No lines, fittings or stones, none of it. It's all a waste in a properly designed RDWC system, unless of course you're a hydro store owner who needs to make sales.

Using the cooling coil or having some way to maintain water temperatures below 67f is essential, fully organic/aquaponic systems excepted. Lower water temperatures inhibit anaerobic pathogens by being more oxygenated; remember that water holds MORE oxygen in solution the colder it gets and act accordingly. The dissolved oxygen in your water is going to be the best inhibitor of waterborne problems, far better than any chemical you can add to it.

Finally, though I haven't personally seen or tried it, I'm told by those who say they have that growing weed in 'Topsy Turvy Tomato' containers was a disappointment. For one, discharge water runs down the stalk and through the buds? Yuck!
 
Cannabis.Is.Free

Cannabis.Is.Free

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Halfway thru my first vertical experiment, I trashed my whole horizontal op and converted to vertical. Quality that was 'good' to 'very good' in general with occasional examples of 'excellent' has remained about the same mix, but the yield improved. I haven't yet settled on a final vertical design long enough to produce good averages (I'm after the improvements themselves, not just generating datasets) but I'm completely convinced that unless the demands of the plant itself require another approach, vertical is drastically more efficient. Hey, the plants grow UP too, right? LOL

Having said that, keep in mind that vertical can be done well or poorly, just like any other approach. It can be tempting to toss the baby with the bathwater when dealing with the learning curve, but the gains are there.

I'm completely happy with my RDWC system, which is just DWC that flows around with the help of pumps. In my case, I use just one pump in a 'control bucket', it sits immersed at the bottom with the water to water heat exchange coil around it. It's connected to the tubsites with four 1" lines. The pump thus pulls water from the tubsites and feeds a 1" manifold which then services 1/2" elbows fittings in the lid of each tubsite. The water comes out and creates a waterfall inside the tubsite, aerating thewater, splashing up and humidifying the airspace and agitating the water to help pass nutrients into the roots.

That's right, NO AIR PUMP. No lines, fittings or stones, none of it. It's all a waste in a properly designed RDWC system, unless of course you're a hydro store owner who needs to make sales.

Using the cooling coil or having some way to maintain water temperatures below 67f is essential, fully organic/aquaponic systems excepted. Lower water temperatures inhibit anaerobic pathogens by being more oxygenated; remember that water holds MORE oxygen in solution the colder it gets and act accordingly. The dissolved oxygen in your water is going to be the best inhibitor of waterborne problems, far better than any chemical you can add to it.

Finally, though I haven't personally seen or tried it, I'm told by those who say they have that growing weed in 'Topsy Turvy Tomato' containers was a disappointment. For one, discharge water runs down the stalk and through the buds? Yuck!
Click to expand...
Wow very well written.

A lot of information to take in, it might take me another read to fully digest it all.
I'm actually more curious than ever to try a vertical grow, I was more leaning towards gravity growing but now vertical is catching my interest.
I do agree with the water flowing down to the buds, but I'm sure there are easy fixes to this like a drain tray hooked to fit on the bottom of the container and sticks to keep the plant from growing directly beside the pot.

It seems like you have a very advance setup though.
RDWC? First time I've heard of it. No pumps? That's new.
Maybe I should try RDWC with a vert setup, I think I may try vert first so I don't bite off more than I can chew.
I may stop by to ask a few questions in the next few days, I think I may start to set things up in the other room and give it a try.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Nothing like getting your feet wet to see how the water suits you, go for it!

ONE pump is still needed to circulate the water around the system, or it wouldn't be recirculating deep water culture.

RDWC = Recirculating Deep Water Culture, or DWC with a pump to pull water through the growing sites. Current Culture's 'Undercurrent' is a crude and expensive version of RDWC. Among other problems, the best site in their whole system for growing in- their 'epicenter'- is the only place they DON'T want you putting a plant!

Gravity growers also complained about the weird structure of the plant as it constantly tried to right itself. Again, this is second hand info, but it came from sources I trust enough not to try it for myself.
 
Cannabis.Is.Free

Cannabis.Is.Free

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Nothing like getting your feet wet to see how the water suits you, go for it!

ONE pump is still needed to circulate the water around the system, or it wouldn't be recirculating deep water culture.

RDWC = Recirculating Deep Water Culture, or DWC with a pump to pull water through the growing sites. Current Culture's 'Undercurrent' is a crude and expensive version of RDWC. Among other problems, the best site in their whole system for growing in- their 'epicenter'- is the only place they DON'T want you putting a plant!

Gravity growers also complained about the weird structure of the plant as it constantly tried to right itself. Again, this is second hand info, but it came from sources I trust enough not to try it for myself.
Click to expand...
I do have a few 5 gal buckets I could drill holes in, doesn't hurt to try when I have the time and space, just need to gain the knowledge which won't be too hard.
I have a few air pumps already, I would just need to get a water pump.
The problem with DWC that I hate so much is the constant need to monitor PH & PPMs, as well as the water temps. It can be a pain in the arse, especially when you're growing an entire forest.
I also don't like that everyone says one fuck up in DWC and you won't be forgiven, seems plants die a lot faster in DWC.

What do you mean by their "Epicenter"?

Also I don't doubt it, I can see why a plant would fix itself especially if grown in a tent. The light is bouncing off the ceiling thus making the plant grow towards the top than the bottom.
There is also mutation, where the plant may be growing up, but the leaves are forcing themselves to grow under, so you'll have a very weird looking plant.
Had this happen oddly in a hori grow, my plants were fine growing towards the light, but I had some supplemental lighting facing under the plants (Not a bright idea at the time, considering that never happens in nature) It caused the leaves to do a 180 and point down while the rest of the plant grew up.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Www.currentculture.com I'll let them explain and shill for their own gear. Take my advice and you'll spend less and get a better system, even if there is some extra time involved in learning the basics and doing the job yourself. FWIW, if the CC guys were interested in improving their system, I'd be a lot more gracious; from all I've seen however, they're out to maximize profit at the expense of quality.

Moving on, temperature is of central concern in RDWC. Solve that problem before committing to the approach, or you'll suffer until you do. If you'd like to talk to knowledgeable water chilling specialists, my friends at www.hydroinnovations.com are among the industry's best- and their customer service is beyond reproach. The advantage in going with a big chiller is lower cooling bills and a waste heat stream that will never smell like a pot plant, meaning that it is ideal for heating a greenhouse or your home. That's free money in addition to the savings in cooling your growing spaces.

The way to minimize dealing with pH and EC is to control temperature well and keep it stable, and run a relatively large volume of water in your RDWC system. Both will minimize the speed of changes, good for both your plants- and your love life, lol
 
Cannabis.Is.Free

Cannabis.Is.Free

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Www.currentculture.com I'll let them explain and shill for their own gear. Take my advice and you'll spend less and get a better system, even if there is some extra time involved in learning the basics and doing the job yourself. FWIW, if the CC guys were interested in improving their system, I'd be a lot more gracious; from all I've seen however, they're out to maximize profit at the expense of quality.

Moving on, temperature is of central concern in RDWC. Solve that problem before committing to the approach, or you'll suffer until you do. If you'd like to talk to knowledgeable water chilling specialists, my friends at www.hydroinnovations.com are among the industry's best- and their customer service is beyond reproach. The advantage in going with a big chiller is lower cooling bills and a waste heat stream that will never smell like a pot plant, meaning that it is ideal for heating a greenhouse or your home. That's free money in addition to the savings in cooling your growing spaces.

The way to minimize dealing with pH and EC is to control temperature well and keep it stable, and run a relatively large volume of water in your RDWC system. Both will minimize the speed of changes, good for both your plants- and your love life, lol
Click to expand...
You make very good points, and I actually enjoy reading a lot more than just doing stuff and learning by mistakes.
Took me well over a year to commit to even growing, I had to do a ton of reading and still do till this day.

I think you made a very good point though, about temperature. Most people don't understand that temperature actually plays a role in PH, & E.C/PPM.
I actually didn't notice this till I experienced it first hand.
I was bored one day and decided to check my TDS meters (I have 2-4 at a time, to avoid getting bad numbers) I had several cups, all with different water temperatures and filters.

The cold water was actually better at maintaining a stable PH & lower/stable PPM.
The hot water wasn't very stable in PH, and the PPM was a bit higher than the cold water.
The point is every different water temperature I tested, had different results.

I'll be checking out those sites in a few, thanks for taking the time to discuss this.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Yep, that's because both EC and pH are temperature dependent to a degree. Another reason higher water temperature are less pH stable has everything to do with what's growing in it; anaerobic pathogens love to push pH towards extremes because it makes more of the rot they like to eat.

I like the fact that you're willing to play with your instruments to discover things for yourself. That's a great habit, don't let anyone ever tell you different. That goes double for when what they say is different from your measurements!
 
killemsoftly

killemsoftly

Well-Known Member
Hey tystik, glad to hear things are ticking along. Got a freebie in my seed purchase: Malberry's Malawi Gold. its specs are pretty awesome: will go to 7 ft, can yield 700gm/m^2, 10-12 week flower. I'm considering running them 12/12 from 4wks after seed splits.

It sounds ideal for trees. I'm planning on trellissing it, that way if the height becomes an issue I just weave the top into the trellis and let it grow across the ceiling. Really looking forward to it.

How's the new handler working?
 
killemsoftly

killemsoftly

Well-Known Member
acutejunglerot said:
i have a space that is 5' x 5' x 8' can this be turned into something vert worthy?!?!?!
Click to expand...
Absolutely. Do 2-4. Depends on the stretch and potential of the plant. Also, veg time is a factor. (10-14 days vs. 2 months: nice vs pita).

You could do a 1000w hps surrounded by the plants with a trellis or fencing to weave the plant into as it grows. Totally doable.
 
acutejunglerot

acutejunglerot

Well-Known Member
i also have another smaller room right next to it sealed air tight that is 5' x 5' x 4' . i was thinking maybe clones and small veg plants. maybe run a top row and ones on ground level with vertical cool tubes 600watt. veg em for a few weeks and straight onto a shelf!!!
 
acutejunglerot

acutejunglerot

Well-Known Member
and the seeds i have are a collection of random high grade hydro seeds. could be anything i have collected some from almost every state in the country... lol. the only ones i know are jimmy hendrixs perp and i got those from homeboy...
 
killemsoftly

killemsoftly

Well-Known Member
Sure.
BTW. i spent a lot of time reading and thinking about verting. Try Googlin 'heath robinson'. Guy is a verting legend and a pioneer of rdwc. Also, Al B. Fuct. He's here on riu. Both are non-active with respect to forums but their work is still around. I've archived a lot via 'copy and pasting'. Another knowledegable guy is Uncle Ben: his topping method works great on seeds AND clones (have to shade one side with vapour barrier once the nodes go asymetrical to get 'even' growth). Another good thread here is 'mainlining'. Excellent info. The guy who started that form is very knowledgeable. Also, Snaps Provolone. He selectively posts to help guys with issues and is bang on. Tysttikk is very knowledgeable as well, also he's very proficient with technology. He runs a chiller and uses the excess heat to heat his whole house. Pretty cool eh? Right now he's dialing in his system after converting to vert. I think his supersilo's are a great idea. I may run them in the future but will probably stick to a trellis for now cause I'm lazy. I use pro-mix, use raw salts (very easy, cheap and foolproof) and my girls are booming.

Enthusiasm and experience are great. I guess what i'm saying is: do a lot of homework. It sure helped me and i continue to learn all the time. I love it when i avoid a problem because i read up.
Good luck acutejunglerot. You could easily pull 4-8 # off that 5x5x8 space. Verting uses the wattage of a bulb much more efficiently than horizontal. Don't take what i say as gospel though. Read the sources i suggested, put in the time and see for yourself.

You could do a lot with those spaces. Best of luck.
 
killemsoftly

killemsoftly

Well-Known Member
Very nice. Don't forget to 'build' a plan on paper. It makes execution so much easier. Don't leave it lying around though!
 
killemsoftly

killemsoftly

Well-Known Member
You're welcome.
Seriously dude. I did a lot of work to learn what i know. Those sources are gold. Use 'em. Don't rush. Patience in this hobby and life is very important. The best advice i could give you: take your time, read, ponder, plan, execute. Then finesse it. You will thank yourself. You may thank me (not important for me) but all I'm really doing is sharing just like all those guys i pointed you at.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
killemsoftly said:
Hey tystik, glad to hear things are ticking along. Got a freebie in my seed purchase: Malberry's Malawi Gold. its specs are pretty awesome: will go to 7 ft, can yield 700gm/m^2, 10-12 week flower. I'm considering running them 12/12 from 4wks after seed splits.

It sounds ideal for trees. I'm planning on trellissing it, that way if the height becomes an issue I just weave the top into the trellis and let it grow across the ceiling. Really looking forward to it.

How's the new handler working?
Click to expand...
That strain sounds like a monster- perfect for growing up a silo for sure! Seems like a long finish time, tho...

I've had some work to catch up on, still researching what I need to build the air handler I'm thinking about.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
I couldn't have said it better, myself.

FWIW, I've been on this hunt for higher efficiency and better productivity techniques for years now. Nothing worthwhile comes overnight.
 
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