Trichomes & Harvesting

BWG707

Well-Known Member
I'm not an expert by no means but what you stated is something I have heard also. High CBD's and low THC usually has a very slight if any "high" to it. If you still want a good "high" (everybody has their own opinion about what a good "high" is) without the paranoid feeling you could try a pure Indica (it's more of a body high). That paranoid feeling brought on after smoking bud can be due to many varibles. Are you prone to panic attacks, do you worry a lot, does getting high intimate you, are you getting high in uncomfortable surroundings, etc. There are many reasons why you have those paranoid feelings. All I can suggest is that you do your own research about your condition. I do understand what you are talking about though. I've had that paranoid feeling before. GL.
 

k0ijn

Scientia Cannabis
Amber trics are usually associated with a "couch lock" high, very sedative. Some people tend to get that paranoid feeling when smoking more of a pre mature plant with no or minimal amber trics. Also some people are more apt to becoming paranoid from smoking Sativas as opposed to Indicas. You can google "paranoid when smoking cannabis", or something similar, to find more info.
It's a common misconception that amber trichs are responsible for the 'couch lock' high.
In fact it's the phenotype which determines the type of high you get (speaking energetic vs couch lock).
I wrote about this on the first page of this thread if I recall correctly so I won't repeat myself.
 

BWG707

Well-Known Member
It's a common misconception that amber trichs are responsible for the 'couch lock' high.
In fact it's the phenotype which determines the type of high you get (speaking energetic vs couch lock).
I wrote about this on the first page of this thread if I recall correctly so I won't repeat myself.
That's very interesting and something that I haven't been able to find any data about. Could you supply your sources please. Thanks:peace:
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
It's a common misconception that amber trichs are responsible for the 'couch lock' high.
In fact it's the phenotype which determines the type of high you get (speaking energetic vs couch lock).
Well, you seem to think those are mutually exclusive and that's not the case. You are both correct. It's not only the phenotype OR the amber trichs, it's a combination of both. The article you quoted on the first page is based on the same research as Mel Frank's a Time to Reap article in hightimes years ago. The common misconception is actually that it's always the strains that produces a couch lock effect while it's often the amber (CBN) causing a sickly/slow feeling and people erroneously associate with high CBD strains that gives a body-relax/body-stones effect rather than a head-high, and not really a couchlock.

You are correct that "in fact it's the phenotype which determines the type of high you get", but as you quoted from the article, more amber is more CBN which "produces a more sickly feeling not a true high", which obviously influences hence also determines "the type of high you get". The fact the strain determines the type of high you get is a reason to get another strain if you want 'body-stoned' rather than wait for a certain % of amber.
 

k0ijn

Scientia Cannabis
Well, you seem to think those are mutually exclusive and that's not the case. You are both correct. It's not only the phenotype OR the amber trichs, it's a combination of both. The article you quoted on the first page is based on the same research as Mel Frank's a Time to Reap article in hightimes years ago. The common misconception is actually that it's always the strains that produces a couch lock effect while it's often the amber (CBN) causing a sickly/slow feeling and people erroneously associate with high CBD strains that gives a body-relax/body-stones effect rather than a head-high, and not really a couchlock.
First off let me start by saying that we do not know everything about the interaction between cannabinoids nor everything about how they individually produce and/or alter psychoactive effects on our bodies.
But we do know a fair amount about a certain number of cannabinoids.

He was asking about "couch-lock, very sedative" which is by definition what a pure Indica strain will deliver.
The question whether a strain will deliver a head-high or a body-high relates purely to the phenotype (including hybrid vs non-hybrid). It has nothing to do with CBN nor CBD.

CBN is hardly psychoactive at all (in fact it's 90% less psychoactive than THC), and the properties it has are usually associated with a sickly ill feeling not anything related to a 'real high' (whether that be a head or a body high).
CBD is non-psychoactive so I don't know why you are talking about CBD strains giving a 'body-relax', CBD does not have any psychoactive properties and thus does not produce a high.

The interaction between the cannabinoids in the individual strain is what produces the specific high of a given strain.
Obviously not all Indicas or Sativas are the same and the highs have different properties, not only related to individual strains but also relative to the individual who ingests the Cannabis.
But the main effects (body vs head) is solely determine by phenotype and/or mixing of different phenotypes (hybrids).

All in all I don't get the point of your post, the phenotype is the main factor in determining whether a strain gives you a body-high or a head-high, which is what the initial question was about.
It wasn't about the finer details of the high which can be attributed to the interaction between the different cannabinoids.
And what you wrote about CBD is just wrong.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Point of my post was the same as pretty much all my posts. Discussion forum mean anything to you? :roll: If you want to incorrectly claim the existence of a non-existing common misconception you should start a blog.

CBD does influence the high by counteracting the effects of THC but that's besides the point. You contradict yourself (and obviously don't really understand) what it means what you quoted from another article. You claim CBN does not influence the high while it gives a sickening feeling as you wrote in your first and last post. One could say it factually doesn't influence the 'high', it influences the effect you get from using, which indirectly obviously affects the feeling you get hence the high as well.

and the properties it has are usually associated with a sickly ill feeling not anything related to a 'real high'
Oh, so we're talking about a 'real high' only... :lol: I however choose what my response is a response to, not something you decided afterwards. In this case it was obviously the first sentence if post #552. Amber trichs DO increase the couch lock feeling and while you claim that is a common misconception you actually explained the reason for it several times in this thread.

CBD is non-psychoactive so I don't know why you are talking about CBD strains giving a 'body-relax',
It's called experience rather than blindly copying an article and pretending to understand it. Have you ever even smoked a high CBD strain or hash? High CBD strains have inherently low THC, CBD counteracts the effects of THC (high), which relatively increase the effects that cause a body relaxed stoned.

The question whether a strain will deliver a head-high or a body-high relates purely to the phenotype (including hybrid vs non-hybrid). It has nothing to do with CBN nor CBD.
Sure, genotype is not related at all. You're wrong in any case because you say 'purely', and if you had any experience growing or even smoking early vs late harvested you'd know that is most definitely not the case. For example, grow any 'high' foxtailing haze strain, wait for the foxtails to become cloudy, by then the main bud is turning amber, and try the difference. I have used the research the article you quoted is based on to write an article in dutch (to avoid amber for the same reason you wrote in this thread...) where it was common to wait for 20-30% amber.

It is in fact the combination of cannabinoids and terpenes and our unique cannabinoid receptors that determines the effect. That in turn is largely determined by the genetics (what you refer to as phenotype...), 'largely' not 'purely' and 'solely' as you claim. If you don't get why, after the above on top of what you wrote yourself then I don't see the point of your entire thread...
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
For completeness of the thread, here's a post with a scanned version of Mel Frank's article in High Times, A Time To Reap:
https://www.rollitup.org/t/bud-porn-take-a-look.655923/page-7#post-9143010

And in regards to the previous couple of posts:
"There is now great interested in varieties that produce both THC and CBD because of the latter's medicinal properties, including the relieve of pain, nausea, spasm and anxiety, as well as its sedative and anti-inflammatory effects."
 

BWG707

Well-Known Member
I just spoke from my 40+yrs of experience with smoking cannabis. I do qualify what I state with "usually". Also I have lots of experience with early harvesting, on time harvesting and late harvesting. Another point I think you have completely looked over is my point about trying a PURE Indica (landrace). I've been growing TNT Kush a pure Indica from Pakistan, in the the Kush Belt. It doesn't have much of a range of pheno types that I'm aware of. All the seeds always grow the same phenos, I've never seen an obvious different pheno. With that said I agree with what Sativied posted, it's a combination and nothing is written in stone. Effects tend to vary from one individual to another. I think we can say in general Indicas tend to produce more of a body type high and I think most will agree that early harvested buds tend to be more racey than later harvested buds. I know for a fact that the pure Indica I smoke gives me a obvious body high, even compared to some of the hybrids. I admit I have a hard time distinguishing between some Indica Dom. hybrids and Sativas. Try smoking "pure" Indicas and "pure" Sativas and I think you will definitely notice the difference, although highs seem to vary from person to person from my experience anyway. I have no studies to support anything I've stated: "This is strictly my experiences."
 

k0ijn

Scientia Cannabis
Part 1/2:

I will try to make this response as respectful as I can but I am finding it very hard to do so.
Given that you have a severe misunderstanding of what you are talking about, but you are writing as if you have complete knowledge.
I will have to reply in two messages as I cannot fit my entire post into 1 post (character limit rules of this forum).

Point of my post was the same as pretty much all my posts. Discussion forum mean anything to you? If you want to incorrectly claim the existence of a non-existing common misconception you should start a blog.
The point of your post was to bring up stuff which has nearly no significance to the original questions, just purely for the effect of looking like the smarter person for calling me out.
I hope people reading what follows in my post here can make out who is actually wrong.
If people choose to buy into your bullshit then by all means, let them.

The guy was asking about the couch-lock high, you are reading way, way too much into this.
I was not trying to explain the intricate differences between various high but I simply stated the fact that it is the phenotype which determines whether you get a head-high or a body-high.
I wasn't bringing any other cannabinoids into the discussion because; first of all we know VERY LITTLE (and you seem to have gravely misunderstood basic properties about certain cannabinoids) about the interaction between said cannabinoids and we do not know which ones exactly interact which each other and cause certain effects.
If you want to assume and make presumptions based on no evidence then go ahead, but don't try to divert the original point.


Sativied said:
CBD does influence the high by counteracting the effects of THC but that's besides the point. You contradict yourself (and obviously don't really understand) what it means what you quoted from another article. You claim CBN does not influence the high while it gives a sickening feeling as you wrote in your first and last post. One could say it factually doesn't influence the 'high', it influences the effect you get from using, which indirectly obviously affects the feeling you get hence the high as well.
Cannibinoids do interact and cause different effects based on the different levels in the particular strains but that has nothing to do with the fact that it's the phenotype which determines the overall high.
I already said that the interaction between cannabinoids affect the high, I don't know why you feel like you have to divert a simple damn question into this time wasting discussion about stuff nobody really knows the facts about.
I have tried high CBD strains (relative 1:1 ratio of CBD:THC) and I have still found the phenotype to be the overall determining factor, sure high CBD strains have different properties than most other strains, which mostly is due to the low amount of THC relative to the other cannabinoids, compared to most strains which for a long time have been grown to maximize THC.
I don't see how high CBD strains have anything to do with the original questions.

I have not contradicted myself once, I will however prove how you are sorely mistaken in your assumptions.
I cannot bring up caveats and hedges in everything I write here just because you think I should explain everything (when we don't even know the true interaction, and thus I would just be guessing very much like you are).


Sativied said:
Oh, so we're talking about a 'real high' only... I however choose what my response is a response to, not something you decided afterwards. In this case it was obviously the first sentence if post #552. Amber trichs DO increase the couch lock feeling and while you claim that is a common misconception you actually explained the reason for it several times in this thread.
Yes I was talking about the real high, not some made up stuff about CBD having sedative properties.

My response was directed at a particular question and I was not trying to bring the interaction between cannabinoids we know very little about into a simple fucking question.
Again here you are reading way too much into the me writing "real high".
What I mean by that is simply the overall, underlying high we get from Sativa vs Indica dominant strains.
I don't know why you think you have caught me contradicting myself, you are a sensationalist trying to stir shit up for no reason.

Sativied said:
It's called experience rather than blindly copying an article and pretending to understand it. Have you ever even smoked a high CBD strain or hash? High CBD strains have inherently low THC, CBD counteracts the effects of THC (high), which relatively increase the effects that cause a body relaxed stoned.
It's called being arrogant, thinking you can add to a simple question by bringing up false information and trying to twist the attention of people reading this.
Instead of dabbling into discussions like this I like to stick to the facts.

Which also is why I answer simple questions in the simplest fashion instead of trying to impress people, bringing up interactions, which while they do exist and PROBABLY have an effect, have zero relevance to the question that was posed.
I could also go into the chemistry underlying the various cannaibinoids but I was simply trying to answer a simple question in a simple way.
That does not mean I don't know that there is a huge amount of information omitted in my original answer but all that information is not always necessarily critical to a simple damn question.
 

k0ijn

Scientia Cannabis
Part 2/2:

SativiedSure said:
Sure, genotype is not related at all. You're wrong in any case because you say 'purely', and if you had any experience growing or even smoking early vs late harvested you'd know that is most definitely not the case. For example, grow any 'high' foxtailing haze strain, wait for the foxtails to become cloudy, by then the main bud is turning amber, and try the difference. I have used the research the article you quoted is based on to write an article in dutch (to avoid amber for the same reason you wrote in this thread...) where it was common to wait for 20-30% amber.
Now you are just assuming stuff to continue your tirade.
You know why I said purely and you are just reading too much into it thinking you have caught me in the act of misunderstanding the intricate processes and interactions, you also think I am at fault for not including information about every cannabinoid that affects the high of a given strain, why are you the police here telling people they should sit here, like I am now, writing an entire essay just to answer a ONE SENTENCE QUESTION.
Especially since you yourself have made a GRAVE error in assuming stuff based off of a magazine article.

I have grown Cannabis for over 10 years and I have smoked for even longer.
I hardly need some random guy on the internet telling me I should include every fucking single aspect on cannabinoids dealing with a simple questions.



For completeness of the thread, here's a post with a scanned version of Mel Frank's article in High Times, A Time To Reap:
https://www.rollitup.org/t/bud-porn-take-a-look.655923/page-7#post-9143010

And in regards to the previous couple of posts:
"There is now great interested in varieties that produce both THC and CBD because of the latter's medicinal properties, including the relieve of pain, nausea, spasm and anxiety, as well as its sedative and anti-inflammatory effects."

If you have read on this long then please carry on, my final and conclusive point is imminent;

I would like to point out to you that I have not used that article as a source, I don't know where you got it from that I was basing my opinions on some article from a high times magazine.
I haven't even read that article until you brought it up here and in fact I am questioning some of the information in that article.
I can only go by the scientific research, but from what I've read from peer reviewed journals, CBD does not have any particular sedative effect.
CBD is non-psychoactive, it reduces muscle spasms, it's a muscle relaxant and it's analgesic (mean it's relieves pain).
That is the information I have on CBD and it stems from Trends in Pharmacological Sciences, you know, real science, not a magazine article.
In fact, research has shown that THC has sedative properties NOT CBD.
Basing your entire fucking argument on a magazine article is pretty embarrassing, especially when that article has facetious "facts" in it.

Allow me to quote something I think will wake you up once and for all:

Real science said:
Many people claim that high amounts of CBD in marijuana causes that body stone/sedative effect associated with indica plants. However, there is much scientific evidence against that idea. Indeed, studies have shown that adding CBD to THC causes one to be more awake!
By contrast, THC alone has more sedative effects. Indeed, CBD is just an antagonist of CB1 receptors. It is probably true then that indica plants have a very high THC % compared to sativas and this has a stronger biphasic stimulant/sedative effect (CB1 receptors are the most widespread receptors in the brain, so its not unlikely that they can do both). The amount of CBD in most drug strains probably has no effect at all since CBD is not present in large amounts and has a much lower affinity for CB1 receptors compared to THC.
Real science said:
Here are some articles to prove my point.
Cannabidiol, a constituent of Cannabis sativa, mod... [FEBS Lett. 2006] - PubMed result
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16844117

In conclusion, we found that CBD modulates waking via activation of neurons in the hypothalamus and DRD. Both regions are apparently involved in the generation of alertness. Also, CBD increases DA levels as measured by microdialysis and HPLC procedures. Since CBD induces alertness, it might be of therapeutic value in sleep disorders such as excessive somnolence.

Effect of Delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol and cannabi... [J Clin Psychopharmacol. 2004] - PubMed result:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15118485

With the concomitant administration of the drugs (5 mg THC and 5 mg CBD to 15 mg THC and 15 mg CBD), there was a decrease in stage 3 sleep, and with the higher dose combination, wakefulness was increased. The next day, with 15 mg THC, memory was impaired, sleep latency was reduced, and the subjects reported increased sleepiness and changes in mood. With the lower dose combination, reaction time was faster on the digit recall task, and with the higher dose combination, subjects reported increased sleepiness and changes in mood. Fifteen milligrams THC would appear to be sedative, while 15 mg CBD appears to have alerting properties as it increased awake activity during sleep and counteracted the residual sedative activity of 15 mg THC

What I just quoted there is links to scientific studies, I would trust the position and findings of professionals who have degrees and who carry out peer reviewed research over your wordplay any day of the week.
Your entire argument on how CBD can affect the high and cause a body stone because it has sedative properties is just false.
There is no evidence for it, either you have been mislead or you have just made a mistake of trusting an article from some magazine.
In any case you have made a significant and serious error, I think 'just' out of ignorance, but an error none the less.

And having you come here and attack me like this trying to make me explain everything about cannabinoids and the interaction between said cannabinoids when we have very little research on the subject and when you have GROSSLY misunderstood basic properties of some cannabinoids honestly just makes you look really bad.



TL;DR:
CBD does not have sedative properties, the entire argument that CBD can cause a body high is simply false.
The phenotype is OVERALL what determines whether you get a head high or a body high.
BUT; The specific interaction between the relative amounts of cannabinoids in a given strain is what produces the unique high you get from a strain.
There are also loads of other variables (I will not name them all), including; the person who ingests it, the mindstate of said person, possible unknown interactions in Cannabis (between cannabinoids and the user); we have NOT yet researched cannabinoids fully, not even close.
 

k0ijn

Scientia Cannabis
I just spoke from my 40+yrs of experience with smoking cannabis. I do qualify what I state with "usually". Also I have lots of experience with early harvesting, on time harvesting and late harvesting. Another point I think you have completely looked over is my point about trying a PURE Indica (landrace). I've been growing TNT Kush a pure Indica from Pakistan, in the the Kush Belt. It doesn't have much of a range of pheno types that I'm aware of. All the seeds always grow the same phenos, I've never seen an obvious different pheno. With that said I agree with what Sativied posted, it's a combination and nothing is written in stone. Effects tend to vary from one individual to another. I think we can say in general Indicas tend to produce more of a body type high and I think most will agree that early harvested buds tend to be more racey than later harvested buds. I know for a fact that the pure Indica I smoke gives me a obvious body high, even compared to some of the hybrids. I admit I have a hard time distinguishing between some Indica Dom. hybrids and Sativas. Try smoking "pure" Indicas and "pure" Sativas and I think you will definitely notice the difference, although highs seem to vary from person to person from my experience anyway. I have no studies to support anything I've stated: "This is strictly my experiences."
Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting any of this on you, you asked a simple question and I gave you a simple answer.
Now you have a much fuller and detailed answer, now that I have had to pick apart Sativieds arguments and prove how false they are.

I hope you got the answer you were looking for, if you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask or make a thread and pose questions, we have a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum (and some delusional ones who will believe anything on zero evidence).
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
The guy was asking about the couch-lock high, you are reading way, way too much into this.
:lol: "I" am the one reading too much into this.... ahum. See above.

(and some delusional ones who will believe anything on zero evidence).
Trying to downplay arguments by attacking the opponent may have have worked on your typical RIU member (like yourself...), anyone who reads my posts and knows a little about my approach knows you got the wrong guy...

I will try not to join your poor attempts at personal attacks which are so obviously caused by you being butt hurt for me correcting you. The keyboard-warrior act makes that all to obvious. Nevertheless, I skimmed through the pages you posted, stopped at:

Yes I was talking about the real high, not some made up stuff about CBD having sedative properties.
Made up? That was a quote from a reliable source, and just one of many. Seems like your googling and reading comprehension attempts are heavily influenced by confirmation biased.

it reduces muscle spasms, it's a muscle relaxant and it's analgesic (mean it's relieves pain).
Muscle relaxant... (hint: what do you think causes a body to relax? Did I not mention the for you incomprehensible body-relax effect...)

Your desperate attempt to turn this into a discussion about what CBD actually does isn't working out well. After so much text and you're still missing the point. Try again, maybe I will take the time and create a simple graph for you to show you what factually happens to the cannabinoid ratio and hence their relative amounts when you wait for amber, according to what you wrote yourself several times...

I smoked hundreds of different strains and more different types of high cbd import hash than you will ever in a lifetime. I KNOW the effects of high amber, and of low thc +high CBD (for decades kid), you're just merely rehashing info of which I can easily find what you call "Real Science" resources that claim the opposite. As you mentioned a while back, there is still a lot to discover about the effects of the cannabinoids, yet you pretend to have all the answers, yet you call me arrogant. All just pot-kettle from another poser. The fact remains you erroneously claim there's a misconception that a. isn't there, b. isn't entirely a misconception but has a lot of truth in it.
 
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BWG707

Well-Known Member
Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting any of this on you, you asked a simple question and I gave you a simple answer.
Now you have a much fuller and detailed answer, now that I have had to pick apart Sativieds arguments and prove how false they are.

I hope you got the answer you were looking for, if you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask or make a thread and pose questions, we have a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum (and some delusional ones who will believe anything on zero evidence).
I did not ask any questions, just to let you know.:peace:
 

k0ijn

Scientia Cannabis
Trying to downplay arguments by attacking the opponent may have have worked on your typical RIU member (like yourself...), anyone who reads my posts and knows a little about my approach knows you got the wrong guy...
I am not downplaying anything.
You claimed that CBD has sedative properties and you quoted a magazine article written by some journalist as your "proof".
I provided TWO peer reviewed scientific studies.
If anyone has any doubts which they should trust then I wouldn't even want to waste my time on those people because they will clearly believe anything they want on bad evidence, much like creationists do, stick your head in the stand after you think you have made a compelling scientific argument, when in fact all you did was quote some facetious material written by a layman.
I can tell you didn't even read what I wrote, otherwise you might be a BIT more embarrassed about making such a huge error.

The studies showed that CBD INCREASES alertness, even with it inherently being a muscle relaxant (which has NOTHING to do with a body-high or a sedative effect).
I mean the fact that you can't even understand the differences between the terminologies makes me think you are just trolling, nobody can be this ignorant.

Sativied said:
I will try not to join your poor attempts at personal attacks which are so obviously caused by you being butt hurt for me correcting you. The keyboard-warrior act makes that all to obvious. Nevertheless, I skimmed through the pages you posted, stopped at:
You are the one throwing around emoticons and mocking me, all I've done is call you arrogant and ignorant, which are both truthful.
Providing proper sources and writing up your arguments in a post is apparently being a "keyboard-warrior".
I mean how much more childish can this discussion get, you are throwing up strawmen left and right and pulling out every damn fallacy in the book to try and stick to your misinformed argument.
You are using wrong information to form your opinion and then you blasting people on the internet.
Your claim about CBD having sedative properties IS made up.
I provided your with two studies and you are still looking the other way, putting your trust in some magazine article instead of real science.



I stand by what I said and that I called you out for using wrong information.
You are basing your opinions on information which is just flat out wrong, and when you still stick to that even when presented with scientific studies which show you are in the wrong just proves how blind you are, you will stand by your opinion no matter what I do.
If a person does not listen to reason, what reason can be used to make the person change his/her mind.
If a person does not value logic, then what logical argument can used to make the person change his/her mind.
I'm beginning to understand that you are a lost cause, you will believe whatever you want to, on bad evidence.

Either way I am done with this "discussion", I have provided my sources and the scientific studies behind my thinking and arguments, you can continue to believe whatever you want, including that CBD being a muscle relaxant is now the reason why you get a body-stone.
Before you said it (CBD) had sedative properties, now you say it's the muscle relaxant which does it, even though the damn study which showed it has muscle relaxing properties proved that CBD INCREASES alertness and counteracts THCs sedative properties.
 

FLkeys1

Well-Known Member
wouldn't it be cool if we could create plants that had the little thing pop out like when the turkey is ready.. just a simple green stem that could pop out at the base to let us know it is time to harvest..
 

k0ijn

Scientia Cannabis
hey boss are theses finish 1 day flower 2/16 outdoors thin mint cookies
Have you looked closely at the trichomes (with a loupe or microscope) on several different calyxes (different branches as well perhaps)?

The plants look very nice, the colours are vibrant and the plants look very healthy.
The only stipulation I would have is that from some of the pictures I still see a fair amount of clear trichomes which would speak to the fact that they are not fully matured yet (but that could be twisted view if you have only macro-shot the least matured calyxes).

I'd say they could take another week but if you are in a hurry you could harvest now with good results.
If it's your first grow you should be very proud, I rarely see plants looking this healthy in a first grow.
 
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