The value of root mass in hydro?

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Let me be very specific to avoid another defoliation discussion. Removing leaves to allow more light to the inner parts of a plant should not be necessary (defoliation is in practice always done to unfuck a situation that should have been avoided by proper plant spacing, good genetics, proper nutrient regime, proper light setup etc etc) and is generally counterproductive. Removing leaves to allow light to other parts of the plant is just well.... This is something we'll never all agree on, but you're asking what "I" am saying so there's that.

"more leaves(source) = more fruit(end product)" is not what I'm saying. As I posted above:

"One of the things they teach at a local reputable agricultural university is that maximum yields are achieved by a optimal source-sink ratio."

Perhaps I should have said "balance" instead of ratio, as I used later in that paragraph. People who claim to benefit (yield-wise) from defoliation essentially claim they improve the sink-source ratio into a better one (which under certain circumstances that should have been avoided might be the case, and why some swear they see benefits) . As with many crazy things growers do, it's based on the urge to have control. While in fact it's the plant that does the work. All a home grower can sensibly do is provide an optimal environment in which the plant can thrive, and reach its genetic potential.

I'm starting to ramble... point is, the source sink balance is regulated by the plant, if you change it, it has to rebalance. If you trim leaves, you remove sources, while the amount of sinks remain the same. Do the math :) Removing a few leaves isn't going to have a major effect the plant can't rebalance, especially during veg. On the flip side, if you trim a sink (like roots) and relatively increase the amount of sources compared to sinks, it doesn't mean the plant actually can and will use all those extra sugars. It's like a dialed-in smooth running factory, if you overload any of the supply lines, or processes, the entire factory needs to slow down and rebalance.

So what you're saying is more leaves(source) = more fruit(end product) as long as there is enough roots(sink) to fuel those leaves?
So no, not exactly as that implies a yield increase. I'm saying you can trim the roots without a yield decrease. Normally in soil the uptake of water brings ions (nutrients) closer to roots, close enough for uptake. In an NFT system the roots are continuously surrounded by a flowing nutrient solution, and can very easily take up all the elements the plant wants (hence the typical faster vegging), which is limited (more nutes is not more bud. Enough nutrients to reach that balance is what leads to max yields, any more and slows it down, like rolling too many wagons of iron into a factory). In nature, genetically, the plant never counted on being able to take up all the elements it needs through every individual root throughout it's entire root mass. It wouldn't have been able to survive... It grows way way more than it needs in hydroponics where all elements are widely available in a form ready for uptake.


 

NewtoMJ

Well-Known Member
Let me be very specific to avoid another defoliation discussion. Removing leaves to allow more light to the inner parts of a plant should not be necessary (defoliation is in practice always done to unfuck a situation that should have been avoided by proper plant spacing, good genetics, proper nutrient regime, proper light setup etc etc) and is generally counterproductive. Removing leaves to allow light to other parts of the plant is just well.... This is something we'll never all agree on, but you're asking what "I" am saying so there's that.

"more leaves(source) = more fruit(end product)" is not what I'm saying. As I posted above:

"One of the things they teach at a local reputable agricultural university is that maximum yields are achieved by a optimal source-sink ratio."

Perhaps I should have said "balance" instead of ratio, as I used later in that paragraph. People who claim to benefit (yield-wise) from defoliation essentially claim they improve the sink-source ratio into a better one (which under certain circumstances that should have been avoided might be the case, and why some swear they see benefits) . As with many crazy things growers do, it's based on the urge to have control. While in fact it's the plant that does the work. All a home grower can sensibly do is provide an optimal environment in which the plant can thrive, and reach its genetic potential.

I'm starting to ramble... point is, the source sink balance is regulated by the plant, if you change it, it has to rebalance. If you trim leaves, you remove sources, while the amount of sinks remain the same. Do the math :) Removing a few leaves isn't going to have a major effect the plant can't rebalance, especially during veg. On the flip side, if you trim a sink (like roots) and relatively increase the amount of sources compared to sinks, it doesn't mean the plant actually can and will use all those extra sugars. It's like a dialed-in smooth running factory, if you overload any of the supply lines, or processes, the entire factory needs to slow down and rebalance.



So no, not exactly as that implies a yield increase. I'm saying you can trim the roots without a yield decrease. Normally in soil the uptake of water brings ions (nutrients) closer to roots, close enough for uptake. In an NFT system the roots are continuously surrounded by a flowing nutrient solution, and can very easily take up all the elements the plant wants (hence the typical faster vegging), which is limited (more nutes is not more bud. Enough nutrients to reach that balance is what leads to max yields, any more and slows it down, like rolling too many wagons of iron into a factory). In nature, genetically, the plant never counted on being able to take up all the elements it needs through every individual root throughout it's entire root mass. It wouldn't have been able to survive... It grows way way more than it needs in hydroponics where all elements are widely available in a form ready for uptake.


I understand what you are saying now. The plant balances itself essentially, with the only requirement from the grower being an optimal environment. Also that plants produce more roots than necessary because biologically they don't know there is going to be an abundance of water and minerals for them.
 

LurchLurkin

Active Member
New, that's right, which is why I was saying one could potentially chemically prune the roots and cause increased yield from it..hypothetically.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
But I have seen some DWC systems produce massive plants along with their respective root system. My roots basically sit in a babbling brook lol. Also the I veg for a very short time (20-25) days from seed so perhaps root development is cut short. Again I have no ideal if there is a correlation to all of this. Has anyone actually trimmed roots back?
Trimming roots when seedling is young forces more roots to develop near the stem which provides a better anchor as well as more surface area for nutrient uptake especially those roots NOT submerged in water

This is why massive air stones are essential to create a higher concentration of nutrient DO above the water line
 

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waterdawg

Well-Known Member
Not sure if I understand how airstone would add more DO above water line? I thought the bubbles created actually grab air and add it to the a water. As I said earlier my roots are completely covered at all times, and perhaps this is the wrong way to do it. Since starting hydro I have struggled with water levels, flooding, and how best to add DO. Roots being one of the things I watch. After trying many different cycles and methods I have found that the plants do best with a constant powerful flow of water. The roots tend to be smaller but plants do very well ( for the most part lol). I use no air and rely on flooming, waterfall, and fountain effect to add DO. Again I know shit about this and just winging it, trying different methods to see what works best in my setup. So are you actually recommending trimming back roots? I pull a few off usually twice a grow when cleaning out drains with no effect but dont try to do it lol.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
I use air stones in my bubbler to start seedlings/clones.

The air is coming from the stones on the bottom of the container, creating air bubbles that break when they hit the surface. If there are sufficient bubbles, the air above will be saturated with moisture mixed with nutes- a near perfect environment for growing roots/root hairs

I combine flooming + air stones in my outboard rez,
where nutes are delivered every ~ 30 minutes

hth
 

waterdawg

Well-Known Member
Sorry guys! I missed a page! Lots stuff I missed. I am starting up a run next week and am going to revamp setup once again to allow for a spray system and immediate drain. Should be interesting to see root develpment.
 

buster8813

Active Member
What's up waterdawg? Long time no talk bro! Hope all is well, shoot me a pm(I forget how on these forums lol), got a few things you might be interested in ;)
 

wristychronicles

Well-Known Member
This is a great thread! I found that air pruning a continuous top drip can grow healthy monster plants with a tiny root system, I.e slab farming, or I run coco in small fabric bags... However I must also add that when I grow small pots this way I like to ensure I see that the roots are constantly growing new cells as they bust out of the bag to prune themselves, which goes right along the lines of this thread. Small roots, that are constantly growing nowhere, but remain healthy by actively participating in cell division lol
 

NeonTetra

Member
Following up on this thread... super informative, huge impact on how I think about my grow.

I went ahead and transferred my plants in to the continuous system, and have seen virtually no additional root branching (see attached image). As long as I keep the nutrients good and the water flowing, the roots keep on blindly growing longer, but rarely branch. One day I accidentally left my res off for a few hours while doing maintenance, and came back to see substantial branching of air-exposed roots.

My guess is that roots elongate using the same basic biochemical and genetic mechanisms as vegetative growth. Was just reading in a botany text concerning the growth hormones auxin and cytokinin. Auxin influences single-shoot development in vegetation, whereas cytokinin influences branched development in both roots and vegetation. Cytokinin comes from the roots, but is more prevalent in plants that exhibit significant branching (hmmm... cytokinin hormone supplements... auto-topping anyone?) I wonder if root stress stimulates a greater ratio of cytokinin. And once those new root branches have formed, now that's mass you have to continue to support from photosynthesis (unless you prune your roots).

Similarly related to the source/sink concept and the auxin/cytokinin ratios. I have 5 plants of the same strain in an NFT. They all get almost identical treatment--the NFT runs are short and the water is reasonably fast-moving. One of my plants has gone untouched--the other four I've topped and pruned variously. The untouched plant has the greatest overall mass and almost no blemishes. The pruned plants have all shown signs of deficiency. Plants are all on their 7th or so nodes and I'm keeping my res at < 150ppm.

By pruning I've removed the "source", but there's still this big root mass to support--not to mention new node growth. So ironically it seems my biggest plant is the most tolerant to a low-nutrient environment. Additionally, in my most aggressively pruned plant, root growth has slowed, nutrient deficiencies are most apparent, and it's the furthest along towards growth of the new nodes. Pretty fascinating, and makes sense according to this thread.
 

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