The value of root mass in hydro?

NewtoMJ

Well-Known Member
I think the only time a larger root mass would be a problem, is when roots start to surround each other. In a sense, you can technically get rootbound in hydro if you allow your roots to clump together and suffocate one another. It would only make sense that being rootbound is possible considering some of the sizes of the rootballs that have been posted here. generally speaking, more roots = more fruits; but only if all the roots are able to perform.
 

LurchLurkin

Active Member
I believe roots will grow to the water/nutrients. Plants have evolved in a soil environment. If you're using something like aeroponics where the efficiency of the delivery system is so much higher than in soil I imagine one could get by with a smaller root ball by limiting space. This could be done with a screen coated in a 100g/L cupric carbonate/paint.

E.G., 70% greater uptake efficiency would do adequate with 30% root size according to my guessology. What gains would you realize? No idea.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
For all you doubters

This is just one example

You could go to my 2013 grow thread to see even bigger plants with smaller than a volley ball root mass


The trick is in the feeding method and medium

Air Pots/Net Pots + polished ornamental stone (Dollar Store) on a deep cycle feed timer- ~ 30 sec/30 min
 

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waterdawg

Well-Known Member
Sorry I dont really get the point if all this. The ideal is to purposely grow a plant with small roots? This is supposed to promote bigger plants? So as stated kinda like defoliation from the bottom up? Just not sure if that is what you guys are hypothesizing. Sounds kinda the wrong way to think, but yes I do see that if if a plant has all it needs why grow bigger roots. I'll let the plant decide i think lol.
 

NeonTetra

Member
I'm trying to determine the following...

If a plant's root system has all it needs in continuous feed hydroponics regardless of root mass, are additional steps or phases that aid in root maturation necessary?

There are two approaches to encouraging root development in soil growing:
  1. Progressive transplantation -- you let the roots bind up in a smaller pot, effectively starving the plant. The plant responds by focusing on growing new root shoots to seek out additional nutrients. When you transplant to a larger pot, it has many more shoots to pull nutrients from the surrounding environment.
  2. Air pruning -- You let the tips of the roots on the plant come in contact with air. As the root tips die back, the plant responds by growing new root shoots.
I've read about either of these two being done in a hydroponics system, particular some form of transplanting or waiting until lots of root tips form before introducing to continuous feed (NFT, DWC, Ebb&Flow). If massive root development isn't that important, why waste any time or plant energy? Once the plant is stable and getting out of the seedling phase, why not just drop right in to the continuous feed system?

If this is true, it seems you could shave a week or two off your veg time and potentially have a more vigorous plant. Basically as soon as you start giving it light nutrients, you throw it on continuous. I attached a kind of silly drawing to illustrate my hypothesis :idea:
 

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waterdawg

Well-Known Member
Not sure about waiting to put plant into continuos feed mode but my setup is always recuirculating as soon as the seedlings are rooted. I adjust nutrient level to ensure roots are emersed in water at all times. The roots tend to stay smaller when doing this as opposed to timed floods. As I am a newb I really am just guessing about the root size being bigger or smaller though. It could be more strain related.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
sorry, there is nothing impressive about those plants.
This was a first generation test of top watering.

I was using low pressure aero heads, a lot of the nutes were not getting inside the APs

Still plant to root ratio is what i am showing
 

Hydroburn

Well-Known Member
I'm trying to determine the following...

If a plant's root system has all it needs in continuous feed hydroponics regardless of root mass, are additional steps or phases that aid in root maturation necessary?

There are two approaches to encouraging root development in soil growing:
  1. Progressive transplantation -- you let the roots bind up in a smaller pot, effectively starving the plant. The plant responds by focusing on growing new root shoots to seek out additional nutrients. When you transplant to a larger pot, it has many more shoots to pull nutrients from the surrounding environment.
  2. Air pruning -- You let the tips of the roots on the plant come in contact with air. As the root tips die back, the plant responds by growing new root shoots.
I've read about either of these two being done in a hydroponics system, particular some form of transplanting or waiting until lots of root tips form before introducing to continuous feed (NFT, DWC, Ebb&Flow). If massive root development isn't that important, why waste any time or plant energy? Once the plant is stable and getting out of the seedling phase, why not just drop right in to the continuous feed system?

If this is true, it seems you could shave a week or two off your veg time and potentially have a more vigorous plant. Basically as soon as you start giving it light nutrients, you throw it on continuous. I attached a kind of silly drawing to illustrate my hypothesis :idea:
One thing I remember hearing is, the very tip of roots contain a "brain". It supposedly tells the root branch where to go and if it has found water and nutrients. Researchers also think plants can share nutrients with each other through the rhizosphere. They say in ancient forests, huge trees can share nutrients with younger saplings struggling for light. I am not sure what the consequences are of removing root tips if any. Just a thought.
 
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PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Other than DWC, all other methods are essentially feed, wait until roots are barely wet, then feed again

That's the method I follow. every DWC root system I've seen look like soggy spaghetti, whereas healthiest roots are a maze of many different sizes, all covered with root hairs, which are like the fuzz on pipe cleaners. This makes for maximum nutrient uptake
 

waterdawg

Well-Known Member
But I have seen some DWC systems produce massive plants along with their respective root system. My roots basically sit in a babbling brook lol. Also the I veg for a very short time (20-25) days from seed so perhaps root development is cut short. Again I have no ideal if there is a correlation to all of this. Has anyone actually trimmed roots back?
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
I've said it months ago in a deleted thread, in an efficient NFT it's not that big of an issue.

Has anyone actually trimmed roots back?
I have. I kept amongst others a small mother in a small DWC for about 4 months and trimmed the roots frequently, the same thing as with topping is the result, it sort of branches out more. I have also trimmed the roots of all 6 plants in my NFT (two rounds ago), to prevent them from growing all the way back in to the reservoir. More roots does not lead to more yield than enough roots, only more than not enough roots. More roots does allow for easier nutrient uptake and allows for relatively lower nutrient levels in the medium (relatively because more roots is more medium, or more nutrient soup they are in contact with).
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Here she is, in total I removed about 3 times as much (in length) than is still on it.
P1mom.jpg

It does not affect the plant.

At least not during veg.

One of the things they teach at a local reputable agricultural university is that maximum yields are achieved by a optimal source-sink ratio. Leaves are sources (of photosynthate, sugars), the rest, including the roots are sinks. By removing roots yet you change the source-sink balance. While this may sound like redirecting energy into buds instead of roots, the optimal source-sink ratio is one that is in balance, which is best determined by the plant. Once you change it, the plant needs to rebalance. Just as with topping, I wouldn't trim roots during flowering.
 

NewtoMJ

Well-Known Member
Here she is, in total I removed about 3 times as much (in length) than is still on it.
View attachment 3230371

It does not affect the plant.

At least not during veg.

One of the things they teach at a local reputable agricultural university is that maximum yields are achieved by a optimal source-sink ratio. Leaves are sources (of photosynthate, sugars), the rest, including the roots are sinks. By removing roots yet you change the source-sink balance. While this may sound like redirecting energy into buds instead of roots, the optimal source-sink ratio is one that is in balance, which is best determined by the plant. Once you change it, the plant needs to rebalance. Just as with topping, I wouldn't trim roots during flowering.
Pretty impressive root system there. I would think that theoretically in hydro you could practice De-rooting much like defoliation. Trimming certain roots to allow more solution flow toward larger more robust parts of the ball. I also think that you can grow plants with minimal roots because it can still feed. But it needs water to breath and carry those nutrients through the stems and leaves. While the size of the mass will generally lead to bigger plants. It would stand that a smaller mass could produce the same if trimmed for efficiency.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
I would think that theoretically in hydro you could practice De-rooting much like defoliation.
No. Not comparable at all. If you think defoliating is good for a plant after I mentioned that source-sink balance you're probably better off just leaving those plants alone.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
sorry, there is nothing impressive about those plants.
Typical for Petflora and a few other high post count members here. When you read the posts it's like hmmm, this guy seems to know what he's talking about... but once you see the poor lanky mutilated plants...

This hydro forum...
 

NewtoMJ

Well-Known Member
No. Not comparable at all. If you think defoliating is good for a plant after I mentioned that source-sink balance you're probably better off just leaving those plants alone.
Not comparing the two, but it's the same principle. Remove parts to allow access to more desirable areas of the organism. De foliation isn't effective, because you essentially are removing the plants digestive system.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Not comparing the two, but it's the same principle. Remove parts to allow access to more desirable areas of the organism. De foliation isn't effective, because you essentially are removing the plants digestive system.
That's is based on the main misconception causing people to yank off leaves in the first place, which means removing the "most desirable areas" in the context of light "access"... It's not the same principle at all. Leaves are sources, roots are sinks.
 

NewtoMJ

Well-Known Member
That's is based on the main misconception causing people to yank off leaves in the first place, which means removing the "most desirable areas" in the context of light "access"... It's not the same principle at all. Leaves are sources, roots are sinks.
So what you're saying is more leaves(source) = more fruit(end product) as long as there is enough roots(sink) to fuel those leaves?
 
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