The direction of the big bang

high|hgih

high|hgih

Well-Known Member
350px-CMB_Timeline300_no_WMAP.jpg Every time I see a representation of the big bang it looks like this. An explosion that started as a singularity. The picture shows the explosion shooting to the right, but that isnt possible without something shielding the left side in order to make it go right. The answer is actually that it exploded in every direction. The reason we use this diagram is because its easier to represent it that way since outside of the universe, or even before it, the space that took up everything wasn't a vacuum like the universe is today in outer space, it was actually made of nothing. Its baffling.. What would happen to a human in this 'nothing'? Is it possible for some extra-terrestrial civilizations that are millions of years further than us to travel outside of the known universe? It seems like even quantum physics is something that only happens inside of our universe. What about outside of it?

Maybe just like how galaxies are spread apart, how it is way out of our reach to go to a different galaxy.. Much less a different star.. Maybe it is even further out of an organisms reach to go to a different universe. Maybe the other universes are so immensely far away that its impossible to even know they exist.

I tripped the other night on DXM and was thinking about all of this. It was blowing my mind that DNA can code for an organism to grow from an egg cell, divide, divide, divide, and then slowly become a copy of its two parents. DNA only consists of few elements. How are some organisms not exactly the same? On an atomic level, what happens as the organism is growing? Not a cellular level. But an atomic level. How do the atoms 'know' to form into organelles? How do atoms 'know' to form into mitochondrias in order to produce proteins for the cells? If genes and DNA code for all of this, how was it made? The whole trip made me think about god. Not in a traditional since. Just the fact that a 'God' has to exist. Something created this and its impossible to understand since we are the structures that it makes anyhow.

In analogy, you could not make a robot, and have it know that it was created by you. You could make it call you master, or creator, however you could not have it actually think, and ''know' the reasons and be able to comprehend why or how you made it. The only way that you could possibly have it know, would be to make it out of living biomass. Which coincidentally, is what God made. If you were to tell this living robot that you made it, one day it would be smart enough to say 'No, God made me.'
 
high|hgih

high|hgih

Well-Known Member
Uhh, no. The picture shows time increases to the right. It shows how things changed over TIME! It helps if you actually look at the labels.
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Aha! Alright you got me there.. Oops :p

Nevermind the whole first part talking about it shooting to the right, but the rest of the post is wayyy less retarded
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
high|hgih said:
View attachment 2331197 Every time I see a representation of the big bang it looks like this. An explosion that started as a singularity. The picture shows the explosion shooting to the right, but that isnt possible without something shielding the left side in order to make it go right. The answer is actually that it exploded in every direction. The reason we use this diagram is because its easier to represent it that way since outside of the universe, or even before it, the space that took up everything wasn't a vacuum like the universe is today in outer space, it was actually made of nothing. Its baffling.. What would happen to a human in this 'nothing'? Is it possible for some extra-terrestrial civilizations that are millions of years further than us to travel outside of the known universe? It seems like even quantum physics is something that only happens inside of our universe. What about outside of it?

Maybe just like how galaxies are spread apart, how it is way out of our reach to go to a different galaxy.. Much less a different star.. Maybe it is even further out of an organisms reach to go to a different universe. Maybe the other universes are so immensely far away that its impossible to even know they exist.

I tripped the other night on DXM and was thinking about all of this. It was blowing my mind that DNA can code for an organism to grow from an egg cell, divide, divide, divide, and then slowly become a copy of its two parents. DNA only consists of few elements. How are some organisms not exactly the same? On an atomic level, what happens as the organism is growing? Not a cellular level. But an atomic level. How do the atoms 'know' to form into organelles? How do atoms 'know' to form into mitochondrias in order to produce proteins for the cells? If genes and DNA code for all of this, how was it made? The whole trip made me think about god. Not in a traditional since. Just the fact that a 'God' has to exist. Something created this and its impossible to understand since we are the structures that it makes anyhow.

In analogy, you could not make a robot, and have it know that it was created by you. You could make it call you master, or creator, however you could not have it actually think, and ''know' the reasons and be able to comprehend why or how you made it. The only way that you could possibly have it know, would be to make it out of living biomass. Which coincidentally, is what God made. If you were to tell this living robot that you made it, one day it would be smart enough to say 'No, God made me.'
Click to expand...
Your musings derail in a few places, particularly the culmination of a creator, but I like to see people thinking along these lines rather than worrying about how they can get laid or get a bigger tv or what sports team to root for. I see in your words a reverence for the universe and the way things are, and I appreciate your contemplation on how they came to be.

Science is asking many of these questions and has at least a few answers. Have you watched the series called 'through the wormhole'? You may enjoy the questions it explores, particularly the episode "what makes us who we are", and "What are we really made of". The series speaks to the very curiosity you express here, and attempts to look at it from an informed perspective.
 
high|hgih

high|hgih

Well-Known Member
Your musings derail in a few places, particularly the culmination of a creator, but I like to see people thinking along these lines rather than worrying about how they can get laid or get a bigger tv or what sports team to root for. I see in your words a reverence for the universe and the way things are, and I appreciate your contemplation on how they came to be.

Science is asking many of these questions and has at least a few answers. Have you watched the series called 'through the wormhole'? You may enjoy the questions it explores, particularly the episode "what makes us who we are", and "What are we really made of". The series speaks to the very curiosity you express here, and attempts to look at it from an informed perspective.
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Ive watched a few episodes of through the wormhole, and how the universe works is a good one too.

But please explain the holes, I like having a conversation about it even if I'm wrong just to get a better understanding. Sometimes I read something or watch something and feel smart enough to talk about it, then I find out there is more understanding by doing that than just merely reading and thinking..

Thanks though, I agree with you there. People spend too much time worrying about material things and its like Why? I understand you must to an extent. Theres a median. But most people just dont think of this stuff at all
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Well in your paragraph about DNA it appears you are essentially saying the universe is too complex to have not been created. Or, at least, that a creator offers a sufficient explanation. It sounds a bit like deism. The idea that God doesn't interact with us and may not even know about us, but some intelligence authored it all, or at least set things in motion.

Would that be a fair representation of your thoughts?

I am also awed by the complexity of things. The more I learn, the more impressed I am. The mystery doesn't dispel with exploration, but becomes deeper. However when faced with the idea of an author, I am held back by the hurtle of infinite regress. Without real world indication of a creator the question remains in the realm of philosophy, and philosophically speaking, infinite regress is a big hurtle.
 
Doer

Doer

Well-Known Member
It's pretty simple, high/hgih. You have the typical confusion when you throw in God. It's because we are bound in the material and can only possibly think in 4D, most of us. We are material in the universe. It's possible that our consciousness is some quantum construct, and not completely electrical. But, even then, what has "god" got to do with it? We made God, in our own image, not the other way. It's much easier to explain it if one doesn't have to go back to "who or what" made it. Who cares, but for religious power?

If you look at the diagram, what is the first thing? Quantum fluctuations. This means causality is meaningless. No Before, no After. Time is something else, man made up. We measure durations and call it time. Before durations, in that quantum state, there is no time, no Cause, no Effect. No need for -God made it. It's totally irrelevant. It popped from void before existence. And cause/effect happens latter, by the very definition. Space has to exist before durations can be measured to be called Time.

Big Bang is not the only model, nor is it the best, IMO. It is, currently the standard model, however.
 
Seedling

Seedling

Well-Known Member
Doer said:
It's pretty simple, high/hgih. You have the typical confusion when you throw in God. It's because we are bound in the material and can only possibly think in 4D, most of us. We are material in the universe. It's possible that our consciousness is some quantum construct, and not completely electrical. But, even then, what has "god" got to do with it? We made God, in our own image, not the other way. It's much easier to explain it if one doesn't have to go back to "who or what" made it. Who cares, but for religious power?

If you look at the diagram, what is the first thing? Quantum fluctuations. This means causality is meaningless. No Before, no After. Time is something else, man made up. We measure durations and call it time. Before durations, in that quantum state, there is no time, no Cause, no Effect. No need for -God made it. It's totally irrelevant. It popped from void before existence. And cause/effect happens latter, by the very definition. Space has to exist before durations can be measured to be called Time.

Big Bang is not the only model, nor is it the best, IMO. It is, currently the standard model, however.
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The biggest problem with the Big Bang theory is that it's Bullshit.

Time did not start. While it may be true that the object we call the universe was "born" at a specific point in time (like you were) and we started counting from there (13.7 billion years and ticking since then), what is also true is that you can for certain say that if there was a 13.7 billion years ago, then there HAD TO HAVE BEEN a 13.8, 15.5, 100,000,000 billion years ago too. We are not talking about what space looked like that long ago, we are isolating the FACT that time did not start and time will not end.

Infinite Past <---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Present--------------------------------------------------------------------------------> Infinite Future

Let me be clear, I am not saying the object the universe has always been in existence, or that it always will be, I am saying there is infinite past and infinite future. Time did not start and time will not end, it's inevitable!
 
high|hgih

high|hgih

Well-Known Member
I said that God, not in a traditional sense. By God I mean everything. Just the whole of all of this. Not a creator. I believe more along the lines of there not being an author, but everything is it, and its some kind of organism that is incomprehensible. More like magic? Some kind of magic makes it all work together, that magic I was just labeling as God.

I think more behind the big bang theory is that in the beginning, time started, and then exponentially became faster and faster, and then slowed down as the universe expanded. Now they are saying there is evidence of the universe beginning to slow down, and contract. Which would mean our thought of 'time' is slowing down, and will eventually come to a halt. Outside of the universe there is no time, there never was.

I second what Durden says, I only know of one other model that could possibly make any sense. Heres a link, but its kinda tricky..
http://www.space.com/17217-big-bang-phase-change-theory.html
 
tyler.durden

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
high|hgih said:
I said that God, not in a traditional sense. By God I mean everything. Just the whole of all of this. Not a creator. I believe more along the lines of there not being an author, but everything is it, and its some kind of organism that is incomprehensible. More like magic? Some kind of magic makes it all work together, that magic I was just labeling as God.

I think more behind the big bang theory is that in the beginning, time started, and then exponentially became faster and faster, and then slowed down as the universe expanded. Now they are saying there is evidence of the universe beginning to slow down, and contract. Which would mean our thought of 'time' is slowing down, and will eventually come to a halt. Outside of the universe there is no time, there never was.

I second what Durden says, I only know of one other model that could possibly make any sense. Heres a link, but its kinda tricky..
http://www.space.com/17217-big-bang-phase-change-theory.html
Click to expand...
Actually, we now know that the expansion of the universe is not slowing down, but is actually speeding up (heading more toward a big rip than a big crunch). It's not just that all matter in the universe is being pushed away from each other by dark energy, but that space itself is expanding between these bodies. In 10,000 years we won't be able to receive any light from outer space and the night sky will be completely black and barren. We're fortunate to live in this era where we can directly witness this cosmic wonder...
 
Nitegazer

Nitegazer

Well-Known Member
Seedling said:
The biggest problem with the Big Bang theory is that it's Bullshit.

Time did not start. While it may be true that the object we call the universe was "born" at a specific point in time (like you were) and we started counting from there (13.7 billion years and ticking since then), what is also true is that you can for certain say that if there was a 13.7 billion years ago, then there HAD TO HAVE BEEN a 13.8, 15.5, 100,000,000 billion years ago too. We are not talking about what space looked like that long ago, we are isolating the FACT that time did not start and time will not end.

Infinite Past <---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Present--------------------------------------------------------------------------------> Infinite Future

Let me be clear, I am not saying the object the universe has always been in existence, or that it always will be, I am saying there is infinite past and infinite future. Time did not start and time will not end, it's inevitable!
Click to expand...
Be careful in your confidence, Seedling. You may be right in your conclusion of an infinite universe, but your conclusions are far from 'inevitable.' Here is a quote from a lecture by Stephen Hawking:

"The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago. The beginning of real time, would have been a singularity, at which the laws of physics would have broken down."

Here is a link to the lecture: http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
tyler.durden said:
Actually, we now know that the expansion of the universe is not slowing down, but is actually speeding up (heading more toward a big rip than a big crunch). It's not just that all matter in the universe is being pushed away from each other by dark energy, but that space itself is expanding between these bodies. In 10,000 years we won't be able to receive any light from outer space and the night sky will be completely black and barren. We're fortunate to live in this era where we can directly witness this cosmic wonder...
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I feel a void from the lack of Chief so,

You only accept this because it makes you feel comfortable. You don't want there to be stars in the sky, because you are afraid to look up. If everything was black then you'd have no reason to look up and threaten your materialistic comfort. You only believe dark energy because of your narrow science view, but science can't tell you about things that can not be detected, like mind energy. Also, Tesla.
 
high|hgih

high|hgih

Well-Known Member
God my fuckin head hurts..

Durden, you have a link to anything about this? And did you read the link I put up?
 
eDude

eDude

Well-Known Member
Seedling said:
The biggest problem with the Big Bang theory is that it's Bullshit.

Time did not start. While it may be true that the object we call the universe was "born" at a specific point in time (like you were) and we started counting from there (13.7 billion years and ticking since then), what is also true is that you can for certain say that if there was a 13.7 billion years ago, then there HAD TO HAVE BEEN a 13.8, 15.5, 100,000,000 billion years ago too. We are not talking about what space looked like that long ago, we are isolating the FACT that time did not start and time will not end.

Infinite Past <---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Present--------------------------------------------------------------------------------> Infinite Future

Let me be clear, I am not saying the object the universe has always been in existence, or that it always will be, I am saying there is infinite past and infinite future. Time did not start and time will not end, it's inevitable!
Click to expand...
[video=youtube_share;ANtpsunRYIs]http://youtu.be/ANtpsunRYIs[/video]

Sorry this is about creationism too.

Also, know that time is not constant. Mass changes time.. In a black hole they say time stands still..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41298959/ns/technology_and_science-space/t/fully-mature-black-holes-time-stands-still/
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
tyler.durden said:
Actually, we now know that the expansion of the universe is not slowing down, but is actually speeding up (heading more toward a big rip than a big crunch). It's not just that all matter in the universe is being pushed away from each other by dark energy, but that space itself is expanding between these bodies. In 10,000 years we won't be able to receive any light from outer space and the night sky will be completely black and barren. We're fortunate to live in this era where we can directly witness this cosmic wonder...
Click to expand...
Actually, a Big Rip, if it is indeed coming, is billions of years (for humans, an effective eternity) into the future. But whether or not there will be one is still an open question iirc. cn
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Seedling said:
Because the concept of time is as I previously explained, there is an infinite past and an infinite future. Time is a concept, not a material object such as the universe.
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I prefer to think that time is a property of (and bound to) our universe. Unhitch it from its material/dimensional substrate, and it might become unrecognizable as time. I find it eminently reasonable to hold that time (as we know it) had a start point. cn
 
Seedling

Seedling

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
I prefer to think that time is a property of (and bound to) our universe. Unhitch it from its material/dimensional substrate, and it might become unrecognizable as time. I find it eminently reasonable to hold that time (as we know it) had a start point. cn
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I find it total irrational to assume that duration (time) could ever start or stop, as duration is not a material object, that would be a clock. Clocks measure time like a meter stick measures a meter.
 
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