The Dems cave in

Jimdamick

Jimdamick

Well-Known Member
The Democrats blinked 1st it seems, giving into the Republicans demands that DACA will not be discussed while the government is shut down.

Some Democrats stuck to their opposition of that fucked up funding for the wall, and lack of a decision on the Dreamers

Sens. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, Dianne Feinstein of California, Kirsten Gillibrand of New York and Cory Booker of New Jersey all voted no, as did Independent Bernie Sanders of Vermont.

Asshole "Turtle Head" McConnell lied again and called for a quick end to the shutdown, saying "I hope and intend" to reach agreement soon on immigration and other contentious issues — if the Democrats agreed to the stopgap spending measure lasting a little less than three weeks.

So, now we have 3 weeks more until this shitstorm starts all over again, and it will continue until the Dems get their shit together and stand by their guns, and do the right thing, and not be phased by Trump propaganda, like his new ad for his re-election bid that he has started already (God help us)


Like you know that Democrats love murderers, and all crime by immigrants is their fault.
 
Grandpapy

Grandpapy

Well-Known Member
blake9999 said:
Didn't they build a wall like that in Berlin?
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The Walls of Ston are a series of defensive stone walls, originally more than 7 kilometres (4.3 mi) long, that surrounded and protected the city of Ston, in Dalmatia, part of the Republic of Ragusa, in what is now southern Croatia[1]. Their construction was begun in 1358.[2]

The wall didn't stop Putin.

Maybe Xi is afraid all of China's Pigs will cross the border once we decide to stop paying Corp's fence mending fees.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Jimdamick said:
The Democrats blinked 1st it seems, giving into the Republicans demands that DACA will not be discussed while the government is shut down.

Some Democrats stuck to their opposition of that fucked up funding for the wall, and lack of a decision on the Dreamers

Sens. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, Dianne Feinstein of California, Kirsten Gillibrand of New York and Cory Booker of New Jersey all voted no, as did Independent Bernie Sanders of Vermont.

Asshole "Turtle Head" McConnell lied again and called for a quick end to the shutdown, saying "I hope and intend" to reach agreement soon on immigration and other contentious issues — if the Democrats agreed to the stopgap spending measure lasting a little less than three weeks.

So, now we have 3 weeks more until this shitstorm starts all over again, and it will continue until the Dems get their shit together and stand by their guns, and do the right thing, and not be phased by Trump propaganda, like his new ad for his re-election bid that he has started already (God help us)


Like you know that Democrats love murderers, and all crime by immigrants is their fault.
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I don't think they caved.

They can prove me wrong but I think they won and are giving everybody time to write the budget bill that they should have written in September. Trump and the racist right will get more money for their wall, and Democrats will get what they ask for, which is more than just action for DACA. We have three weeks to do what should have been done over the summer.

SANDERS: What we're asking for is three things. We are asking for an annual budget which will provide equally for defense and nondefense spending. We are asking that months and months after these terrible disasters impacted Texas and Florida and Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands - that we deal with disaster relief. And we are asking what the American people want. Recent poll had 87 percent of the American people saying that DREAMers should receive, retain their legal status that Trump took away from them. And most of those folks think there should be a path toward citizenship.

https://www.npr.org/2018/01/21/579500325/bernie-sanders-on-government-shutdown
 
Jimdamick

Jimdamick

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I don't think they caved.

They can prove me wrong but I think they won and are giving everybody time to write the budget bill that they should have written in September. Trump and the racist right will get more money for their wall, and Democrats will get what they ask for, which is more than just action for DACA. We have three weeks to do what should have been done over the summer.

SANDERS: What we're asking for is three things. We are asking for an annual budget which will provide equally for defense and nondefense spending. We are asking that months and months after these terrible disasters impacted Texas and Florida and Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands - that we deal with disaster relief. And we are asking what the American people want. Recent poll had 87 percent of the American people saying that DREAMers should receive, retain their legal status that Trump took away from them. And most of those folks think there should be a path toward citizenship.

https://www.npr.org/2018/01/21/579500325/bernie-sanders-on-government-shutdown
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Well then, let's just hope that the Dems get what is really needed, like DACA/CHIP/Immigration. But I guess we'll end up with Trumps's Wall, one way or the other.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Jimdamick said:
Well then, let's just hope that the Dems get what is really needed, like DACA/CHIP/Immigration. But I guess we'll end up with Trumps's Wall, one way or the other.
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A wall from sea to shining sea, probably not. More than we want, which is not much. It's a compromise that radical right whingers demanded for the protection of DREAMERS. In two years, the Democratically controlled congress can scale back funding for the wall. (fingers crossed when making the promise)
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
just looked at the deal.

so we got CHIP funded for 6 years, kept the leverage of the shutdown threat, and a "promise" to vote on dreamers again in 3 weeks?

meh, not bad.

i'm laughing so hard at every trumptard who is celebrating the wall funding, which was explicitly promised to be provided by mexico, and not by hardworking american liberals who make up 65% of the american economy.
 
SneekyNinja

SneekyNinja

Well-Known Member
UncleBuck said:
just looked at the deal.

so we got CHIP funded for 6 years, kept the leverage of the shutdown threat, and a "promise" to vote on dreamers again in 3 weeks?

meh, not bad.

i'm laughing so hard at every trumptard who is celebrating the wall funding, which was explicitly promised to be provided by mexico, and not by hardworking american liberals who make up 65% of the american economy.
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Yeah I could've sworn Trump said the Wall would be paid for in pesos...
 
twostrokenut

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
chip was already funded. dems shut down over daca which isn't due for months. it was political posturing that backfired bigly for the dems.
 
greg nr

greg nr

Well-Known Member
Jimdamick said:
Well then, let's just hope that the Dems get what is really needed, like DACA/CHIP/Immigration. But I guess we'll end up with Trumps's Wall, one way or the other.
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CHIP is in the short term bill for 6 years.

Immigration reform isn't what you make it out to be. The dems are fighting for status quo vs white skin/brown skin policies.

So Dem's are out for (1) passing daca or at least not let it die a whimpering death, and (2) not letting them gut everything else. The GOP will actively have to kill DACA as a clean bill, or pass it grudgingly. That will be a win for 2018. Yes, DACA kids are being deported as they lose eligibility, but there will still be time to force a deal if we sweep 2018.

Keeping the gov't shut down was a long term problem. It's what trump wanted all along.

Oh, and bernie can go fuke himself. We don't need another trump.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
greg nr said:
CHIP is in the short term bill for 6 years.

Immigration reform isn't what you make it out to be. The dems are fighting for status quo vs white skin/brown skin policies.

So Dem's are out for (1) passing daca or at least not let it die a whimpering death, and (2) not letting them gut everything else. The GOP will actively have to kill DACA as a clean bill, or pass it grudgingly. That will be a win for 2018. Yes, DACA kids are being deported as they lose eligibility, but there will still be time to force a deal if we sweep 2018.

Keeping the gov't shut down was a long term problem. It's what trump wanted all along.

Oh, and bernie can go fuke himself. We don't need another trump.
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Say what you like about Bernie on his stance and I won't say you are wrong. I too think the three week delay for the shut down was a necessary action and that "win" or "lose" is irrelevant so long as DACA is reinstated, preferably with a path toward citizenship.

But, Daaaaamn. Over the weekend, did you listen to any of the so-called leaders of the Democratic Party explain why they forced the shutdown? It was like listening to Mumbles in the ancient and way politically incorrect movie, Dick Tracy.

Sanders, when he talked about it on NPR was clear and gave a great explanation of why and what Democrats were asking for. He outlined exactly the same policies and issues that the mumbleheads voice but was understandable. The communication from Schumer and Hollen, for instance, contained the same message as Sanders if you could parse out the mumbly oatmeal-like squishy wonk speak. Democrats simply can't speak directly about the issues and it turns off a lot of people who would agree if they didn't think they were being talked down to by having everything repeatedly explained to them.

From an interview with Van Hollen on NPR this weekend:

VAN HOLLEN: Well, Scott, the first thing is we need to get back to work. The Senate will go back in at noon today and end this unnecessary and very avoidable shutdown. There were lots of issues at play. We are now four months into the fiscal year without a budget, which our military has said is doing great damage to them. We need to fund not only the military but the part of the budget that funds our kids' education, the part of the budget that funds the Social Security Administration, which is taking great cuts. And that's having a very negative impact on services. We need to fully fund - so if you're - there are a series of issues. DACA...

SIMON: I didn't hear a yes or no as to whether or not you're using immigration as a bargaining chip.

VAN HOLLEN: No, we are not. The answer is we are not. What we are doing is trying to get agreement on a whole host of important priorities, which, by the way, we believed were shared priorities, at least among a majority of senators - Republicans and Democrats.
https://www.npr.org/2018/01/20/579330301/democratic-sen-chris-van-hollen-on-shutdown

In a separate interview with Sanders, same subject:

SANDERS: What we're asking for is three things. We are asking for an annual budget which will provide equally for defense and nondefense spending. We are asking that months and months after these terrible disasters impacted Texas and Florida and Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands - that we deal with disaster relief. And we are asking what the American people want. Recent poll had 87 percent of the American people saying that DREAMers should receive, retain their legal status that Trump took away from them. And most of those folks think there should be a path toward citizenship.
https://www.npr.org/2018/01/21/579500325/bernie-sanders-on-government-shutdown

Democrats lost the communication battle and needed somebody like Sanders to say it for them.
 
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greg nr

greg nr

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Say what you like about Bernie on his stance and I won't say you are wrong. I too think the three week delay for the shut down was a necessary action and that "win" or "lose" is irrelevant so long as DACA is reinstated, preferably with a path toward citizenship.

But, Daaaaamn. Over the weekend, did you listen to any of the so-called leaders of the Democratic Party explain why they forced the shutdown? It was like listening to Mumbles in the ancient and way politically incorrect movie, Dick Tracy.

Sanders, when he talked about it on NPR was clear and gave a great explanation of why and what Democrats were asking for. He outlined exactly the same policies and issues that the mumbleheads voice but was understandable. The communication from Schumer and Hollen, for instance, contained the same message as Sanders if you could parse out the mumbly oatmeal-like squishy wonk speak. Democrats simply can't speak directly about the issues and it turns off a lot of people who would agree if they didn't think they were being talked down to by having everything repeatedly explained to them.

From an interview with Van Hollen on NPR this weekend:

VAN HOLLEN: Well, Scott, the first thing is we need to get back to work. The Senate will go back in at noon today and end this unnecessary and very avoidable shutdown. There were lots of issues at play. We are now four months into the fiscal year without a budget, which our military has said is doing great damage to them. We need to fund not only the military but the part of the budget that funds our kids' education, the part of the budget that funds the Social Security Administration, which is taking great cuts. And that's having a very negative impact on services. We need to fully fund - so if you're - there are a series of issues. DACA...

SIMON: I didn't hear a yes or no as to whether or not you're using immigration as a bargaining chip.

VAN HOLLEN: No, we are not. The answer is we are not. What we are doing is trying to get agreement on a whole host of important priorities, which, by the way, we believed were shared priorities, at least among a majority of senators - Republicans and Democrats.
https://www.npr.org/2018/01/20/579330301/democratic-sen-chris-van-hollen-on-shutdown

In a separate interview with Sanders, same subject:

SANDERS: What we're asking for is three things. We are asking for an annual budget which will provide equally for defense and nondefense spending. We are asking that months and months after these terrible disasters impacted Texas and Florida and Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands - that we deal with disaster relief. And we are asking what the American people want. Recent poll had 87 percent of the American people saying that DREAMers should receive, retain their legal status that Trump took away from them. And most of those folks think there should be a path toward citizenship.
https://www.npr.org/2018/01/21/579500325/bernie-sanders-on-government-shutdown

Democrats lost the communication battle and needed somebody like Sanders to say it for them.
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I reject your premise from the start. The dems didn't force the shutdown; the gop did. The dems merely wouldn't sign off on it unless their concerns were addressed in a concrete manner. And those concerns were clearly articulated by dem leadership.

Bernie is quite simply too old and too isolationist to take over from the trump clusterfuck. His political termites have done damage that will last decades. We need someone who can address the broad range of damage done, both domestically and internationally, and it isn't bernie. He is already 74; he will be 77 or 78 by the time he took office.

That's fine for a senator, but it's too damn old for a president.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
greg nr said:
Bernie is quite simply too old and too isolationist to take over from the trump clusterfuck. His political termites have done damage that will last decades. We need someone who can address the broad range of damage done, both domestically and internationally, and it isn't bernie. He is already 74; he will be 77 or 78 by the time he took office.

That's fine for a senator, but it's too damn old for a president.
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Nowhere in there did I talk about Bernie for prez. I prefer it be somebody else and am waiting for the debates to help me make up my mind. I do note that Sanders was the only clear voice when asked what the shut down was all about. He stuck to Democratic talking points but said it better. Democrats who want to lead could take notes from Sanders on how to explain themselves.

greg nr said:
I reject your premise from the start. The dems didn't force the shutdown; the gop did. The dems merely wouldn't sign off on it unless their concerns were addressed in a concrete manner. And those concerns were clearly articulated by dem leadership.
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Did you actually listen to what was being said by Democratic leaders? What I heard was really mushy and the messages weren't concise. Can you point me to an interview that you consider concise and clear?

As far as "dems didn't force shutdown". The two caucuses were at loggerheads and we had a shut down because a Republican short term funding bill didn't pass. Responsibility for the shutdown lies on Republican law makers and Trump for the way they made deals and broke them minutes later. I don't know what else Democrats could have done on Friday other than reject Republican wishy washy promises to "do something, sometime, about DACA". They did force the shut down by voting no for good reason and the fault lies with Republicans. I think it was a good thing.

I think we agree but are saying it differently.
 
rkymtnman

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Nowhere in there did I talk about Bernie for prez. I prefer it be somebody else and am waiting for the debates to help me make up my mind. I do note that Sanders was the only clear voice when asked what the shut down was all about. He stuck to Democratic talking points but said it better. Democrats who want to lead could take notes from Sanders on how to explain themselves.



Did you actually listen to what was being said by Democratic leaders? What I heard was really mushy and the messages weren't concise. Can you point me to an interview that you consider concise and clear?

As far as "dems didn't force shutdown". The two caucuses were at loggerheads and we had a shut down because a Republican short term funding bill didn't pass. Responsibility for the shutdown lies on Republican law makers and Trump for the way they made deals and broke them minutes later. I don't know what else Democrats could have done on Friday other than reject Republican wishy washy promises to "do something, sometime, about DACA". They did force the shut down by voting no for good reason and the fault lies with Republicans. I think it was a good thing.

I think we agree but are saying it differently.
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I think of 2 reasons:
1. they know a big bombshell re: Trump is going to drop i.e. Kushner or Don Jr indictments
2. they are saving the real shutdown after this temp budget is up and will demand the GOP produce an immigration bill.

I don't see how the GOP can come up with anything workable for immigration since they couldn't even repeal ACA as promised
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
rkymtnman said:
I think of 2 reasons:
1. they know a big bombshell re: Trump is going to drop i.e. Kushner or Don Jr indictments
2. they are saving the real shutdown after this temp budget is up and will demand the GOP produce an immigration bill.

I don't see how the GOP can come up with anything workable for immigration since they couldn't even repeal ACA as promised
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I think reason 2 is most likely. Between now and second shut down deadline, I would like to see Democrats repeat the same concise message for what they are asking for and why they are threatening another shut down. Its too much to ask for though. Democrats love to explain how complicated everything is.
 
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