The Amendment King

ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Unclebaldrick said:
Maybe. Most third parties in America are tools. They are the "brush hogs" that clear new paths until one of the major parties hip-checks them out of the way and actually implements their strategy. Whatever. Our system is built for two parties, but that does not mean those parties can't adapt. Look at the way the Republicans benefitted from untapped racism last time around.
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The more I think about this, the more I think you're right. This is what it takes to get the major parties to notice, take the issues seriously and actually do something.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Unclebaldrick said:
1. Win elections
2. Change the laws
3. Party like its 1999
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Even when we win elections, the politicians who are supposed to represent us don't change the things we want changed. They settle and buckle for half of what we want and justify it with incrementalism. When Republicans win control, they upend the entire system, they change everything as fast as possible to benefit the wealthy and corporations.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
I want you to define what you mean when you say "urban liberal extremism"

Your opinion of her chances is irrelevant to the fact she's from West Virginia. It destroys your assertion that JD is a group of "urban liberal extremists" from the coasts coming into communities and forcing their beliefs on everyone

I don't care where their funds come from as long as they come from individual donors
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so, what I said, liberal moral imperialism. And losing seats to Republicans. That's your deal, not mine.

I told you. You and tty fit exactly what an urban liberal extremist is. Extremism in this case is unwilling to compromise or accept anything other than complete agreement with the urban liberal ideal.

Most of which I agree with. But I'm not interested in exporting my ideals to West Virginia.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
so, what I said, liberal moral imperialism. And losing seats to Republicans. That's your deal, not mine.

I told you. You and tty fit exactly what an urban liberal extremist is. Extremism in this case is unwilling to compromise or accept anything other than complete agreement with the urban liberal ideal.
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You keep putting words in my mouth I didn't say.

I've said many times, even to you, that I'm fighting for complete change and I'll settle for incremental progress. What we've seen for the past 35 years is incremental progress in the wrong direction, culminating in a system that does not represent the average American, forget 'imperfectly'.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
so, what I said, liberal moral imperialism. And losing seats to Republicans. That's your deal, not mine.

I told you. You and tty fit exactly what an urban liberal extremist is. Extremism in this case is unwilling to compromise or accept anything other than complete agreement with the urban liberal ideal.
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What is "the urban liberal ideal"?

The only thing I'm unwilling to compromise on is accepting corporate or PAC money. If you accept corporate or PAC money, you are beholden to special interests, not your constituents. Literally everything else is game because I know if you hold some unpopular position, you won't get far under a fair playing field. I support democracy.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
Even when we win elections, the politicians who are supposed to represent us don't change the things we want changed. They settle and buckle for half of what we want and justify it with incrementalism. When Republicans win control, they upend the entire system, they change everything as fast as possible to benefit the wealthy and corporations.
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THIS.

I've seen it happen over and over and it made me scratch my head. The corporations want what the Republicans advocate and the Democrats are just there to protect and discredit the left flank.

That makes people like @Fogdog and @UncleBuck conservatives, in in light of actual outcomes if not in name.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
What is "the urban liberal ideal"?

The only thing I'm unwilling to compromise on is accepting corporate or PAC money. If you accept corporate or PAC money, you are beholden to special interests, not your constituents. Literally everything else is game because I know if you hold some unpopular position, you won't get far under a fair playing field. I support democracy.
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Don't you get it?

They've been brainwashed into accepting the premise of corruption!
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
You keep putting words in my mouth I didn't say.

I've said many times, even to you, that I'm fighting for complete change and I'll settle for incremental progress. What we've seen for the past 35 years is incremental progress in the wrong direction, culminating in a system that does not represent the average American, forget 'imperfectly'.
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Justice Democrats. Not exactly what you just said yet that's your new tout. You have flexible standards for facts. After all "a fact doesn't have to be true to be believed", as my favorite reply from an extremist said. I don't know what to think of what you say..
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
Even when we win elections, the politicians who are supposed to represent us don't change the things we want changed. They settle and buckle for half of what we want and justify it with incrementalism. When Republicans win control, they upend the entire system, they change everything as fast as possible to benefit the wealthy and corporations.
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You are saying exactly what I'm calling extremist. Who are you talking about? Answer: Other people's elected officials. Other people's different take on issues.

Republicans are a monolithic narrow and corrupt party. It's also an inept government. I don't want the Democratic Party to look like that.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
What is "the urban liberal ideal"?

The only thing I'm unwilling to compromise on is accepting corporate or PAC money. If you accept corporate or PAC money, you are beholden to special interests, not your constituents. Literally everything else is game because I know if you hold some unpopular position, you won't get far under a fair playing field. I support democracy.
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define yourself. I'm not going to. I don't understand you. I just look at your shit stupid posts, your my way or the highway attitude, your willingness to cherry pick facts to re-enforce a belief that is patently false and I say that's an urban liberal.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
You are saying exactly what I'm calling extremist. Who are you talking about? Answer: Other people's elected officials. Other people's different take on issues.

Republicans are a monolithic narrow and corrupt party. It's also an inept government. I don't want the Democratic Party to look like that.
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What we're saying is that the Democratic Party looks more monolithic, corrupt and out of touch than ever before, to the point where the differences between them and the Republican Party are no longer significant.

I no longer have any confidence in either major party's willingness to make the necessary changes. Mr Obama did not do what was needed, even when he had a supermajority in Congress.

This is a fundamental difference of opinion between you and I, but calling me silly names, an extremist or trying to paint me as a liar doesn't give you any credibility.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
You are saying exactly what I'm calling extremist. Who are you talking about? Answer: Other people's elected officials. Other people's different take on issues.

Republicans are a monolithic narrow and corrupt party. It's also an inept government. I don't want the Democratic Party to look like that.
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If you do not support progressive ideals, you do not belong in the Democratic party.

You apparently believe the Democratic party should also welcome Republicans. I don't. I'm sorry you feel that makes me an extremist.

If you want to oppose financial regulation, universal healthcare, a living wage, etc., by all means, join the Republican party, because that's where you belong.
Fogdog said:
define yourself. I'm not going to. I don't understand you. I just look at your shit stupid posts, your my way or the highway attitude, your willingness to cherry pick facts to re-enforce a belief that is patently false and I say that's an urban liberal.
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It is my way or the highway when it comes to ensuring 27 million Americans who weren't covered under the ACA, it is my way or the highway when it comes to getting money out of politics and overturning Citizens United. It is my way or the highway when it comes to accepting corporate or PAC money to fund political campaigns. If you don't like that, can't accept that or can't understand why, you're not as smart as I thought you were.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Justice Democrats. Not exactly what you just said yet that's your new tout. You have flexible standards for facts. After all "a fact doesn't have to be true to be believed", as my favorite reply from an extremist said. I don't know what to think of what you say..
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Their positions line up with my positions better than either of the major parties.

They line up with the positions Bernie Sanders has been stumping for better than either of the major parties.

Bernie's positions are extremely popular and resonate with average American citizens of both parties better than either of the major parties.

All of these pieces of supporting evidence add up to the need and the opportunity for a New Left movement to take hold and hold the Democratic Party accountable to the people it purports to represent.

You go ahead and talk about 'facts that don't have to be true to be believed' all you like; after all, that's what both major parties are doing right now, even while their leaders and their corporatist donors are laughing all the way to the bank.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
If you do not support progressive ideals, you do not belong in the Democratic party.

You apparently believe the Democratic party should also welcome Republicans. I don't. I'm sorry you feel that makes me an extremist.

If you want to oppose financial regulation, universal healthcare, a living wage, etc., by all means, join the Republican party, because that's where you belong.

It is my way or the highway when it comes to ensuring 27 million Americans who weren't covered under the ACA, it is my way or the highway when it comes to getting money out of politics and overturning Citizens United. It is my way or the highway when it comes to accepting corporate or PAC money to fund political campaigns. If you don't like that, can't accept that or can't understand why, you're not as smart as I thought you were.
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Right now, the Democratic Party does not support democratic or progressive ideals. Baltimore's mayor Catherine Pugh, a Democrat, vetoed a $15/hr minimum wage in March of 2017.

If a party doesn't support one's political position, why support them? That would seem to be the epitome of 'facts don't need to be true to be believed' thinking.
 
Unclebaldrick

Unclebaldrick

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Their positions line up with my positions better than either of the major parties.
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I kept Googling. It turns out that Finland's war aims matched up with mine more than anybody else's in that war you mentioned. They just wanted to be left alone. Being on Finland's side in that war would have been the right way to go.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Unclebaldrick said:
I kept Googling. It turns out that Finland's war aims matched up with mine more than anybody else's in that war you mentioned. They just wanted to be left alone. Being on Finland's side in that war would have been the right way to go.
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http://www.businessinsider.com/19-countries-with-the-highest-standard-of-life-according-to-the-social-progress-report-2016-6/#1-finland-9009-everyone-says-nordic-nations-have-the-highest-standard-of-living-and-now-finland-has-made-it-official-it-scores-highly-on-almost-every-index-on-the-report-from-basic-needs-foundations-of-wellbeing-and-personal-freedoms-if-you-move-there-just-make-sure-to-bring-warm-coat-temperatures-can-reach-minus-50-celsius-in-the-winter-19

Finland has the world's highest standard of living, while the USA is 19th.

I'd say emulating Finland is probably a good move.

BTW, Canada scored #2.
 
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