The Amendment King

Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
I know you love this guy, but again the message makes sense in spite of the messenger;

The problem isn't just Republicans; it is elitists on both sides who perpetuate the American political oligarchy that refuses to acknowledge, let alone address, the problems the bottom half (and growing) of the country is experiencing.
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Read my recent post and calm down.
 
Unclebaldrick

Unclebaldrick

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
The Justice Democrats are tools.
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Maybe. Most third parties in America are tools. They are the "brush hogs" that clear new paths until one of the major parties hip-checks them out of the way and actually implements their strategy. Whatever. Our system is built for two parties, but that does not mean those parties can't adapt. Look at the way the Republicans benefitted from untapped racism last time around.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Unclebaldrick said:
And that is why they will fail. It isn't just you. A thousand, thousand people each have one requirement - all different.
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It's OK to have different opinions. It's not OK to put your foot on the scale with corporate donations and PAC money. If there is an equal playing field, the best ideas will generally surface and the bad ideas will be buried.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
CEO pay is now 475 times the amount paid to the lowest paid worries in their companies.

The last time this happened? Nazi Germany.
 
Unclebaldrick

Unclebaldrick

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
It's OK to have different opinions. It's not OK to put your foot on the scale with corporate donations and PAC money. If there is an equal playing field, the best ideas will generally surface and the bad ideas will be buried.
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I agree. We don't have 20 years though. Shit's gotten real.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Unclebaldrick said:
Maybe. Most third parties in America are tools. They are the "brush hogs" that clear new paths until one of the major parties hip-checks them out of the way and actually implements their strategy. Whatever. Our system is built for two parties, but that does not mean those parties can't adapt. Look at the way the Republicans benefitted from untapped racism last time around.
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Justice Democrats are urban liberal Democrats who would spend PAC dollars to unseat Democratic Congressmen in completely unrelated districts. Not a third party, and not trying to be one. In my eyes, it's a misguided attempt at hijacking the Democratic party to move it more firmly into the urban component of the urban-rural divide. I don't think that urban liberal extremism is a good answer to right wing extremism. Especially when rural voters don't even need a majority vote to win the presidency.

To have an effective, experienced leadership, a third party needs to develop grass roots support and local and state level before moving on to national prominence. Maybe a different paradigm will propel a party from nowhere to national prominence, as happened in France.

I would like to see the rise of a viable left leaning third party. I supported Green Party issues locally. We were thrashed but got the dialogue going. Gained experience. But the Green Party isn't ready for high office. Stein and the Green Party leadership were an embarrassment.

.
 
Unclebaldrick

Unclebaldrick

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Justice Democrats are urban liberal Democrats who would spend PAC dollars to unseat Democratic Congressmen in completely unrelated districts. Not a third party, and not trying to be one. In my eyes, it's a misguided attempt at hijacking the Democratic party to move it more firmly into the urban component of the urban-rural divide. I don't think that urban liberal extremism is a good answer to right wing extremism. Especially when rural voters don't even need a majority vote to win the presidency.

To have an effective, experienced leadership, a third party needs to develop grass roots support and local and state level before moving on to national prominence. Maybe a different paradigm will propel a party from nowhere to national prominence, as happened in France.

I would like to see the rise of a viable left leaning third party. I supported Green Party issues locally. We were thrashed but got the dialogue going. Gained experience. But the Green Party isn't ready for high office. Stein and the Green Party leadership were an embarrassment.

.
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I have mostly lived in states or districts whose electoral votes were pretty much a foregone conclusion. I have voted for third parties many a time - mostly in the general elections. Not last time. I moved to a poor excuse for a state that couldn't even get the shape of it's flag right. I would have sooner cut my hand off than vote for one of those pathetic excuses for a candidate. Just fucking sad. I respect Trump supporters more than little jizzbags like @tampee.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
The only requirement is you don't take corporate or Super PAC money

It's not even a list, let alone long; it's one single item
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mmhmmm. You should recall that Democratic Senators were pummeled by the Republican party just weeks after the Republicans defeated Bernie's bill to amend the constitution and repeal the Citizen's United ruling. 12 Democratic Senators who supported the ending of unlimited, corporate campaign donations were unseated by Republican who very clearly supported continuance of these donations. The result is a Senate controlled by Republicans. How do you reconcile this fact with your belief that rejecting PAC money is a winning move?

The complaints against blue dog democrats by Justice Democrats is a lot longer than one issue. For example, while I sympathize with many of the complaints listed against Manchin's environmental policies, I believe that the issue of what Manchin does or does not support is and should be up to the voters of West Virginia and not New York or West Coast liberals. Primarying Manchin would basically hand over that senate seat to Republicans. Manchin, by the way supported Bernie Sanders' proposed amendment. He's just not willing unilaterally reject campaign donations and put himself at a disadvantage in a close race.

I'll take a Democratic Party Senator who stands with Democrats 40% of the time to a Republican who would be far worse.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/liberals-would-be-foolish-to-target-joe-manchin/

Manchin’s real worth to Democrats is that he’s a Democrat, because a Republican from West Virginia would probably vote GOP far more often. In fact, West Virginia’s other senator, Capito, has voted with Trump 100 percent of the time.

All told, the chance of a non-incumbent Democrat winning a Senate seat in West Virginia in 2018 is probably somewhere between 1 percent and 2 percent. Manchin isn’t an underdog. He’s, at worst, a 50-50 bet to win re-election and perhaps a slight favorite. The Cook Political Report rates him likely to win, and Inside Politics rates his re-election as a tossup.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Justice Democrats are urban liberal Democrats who would spend PAC dollars to unseat Democratic Congressmen in completely unrelated districts. Not a third party, and not trying to be one. In my eyes, it's a misguided attempt at hijacking the Democratic party to move it more firmly into the urban component of the urban-rural divide. I don't think that urban liberal extremism is a good answer to right wing extremism. Especially when rural voters don't even need a majority vote to win the presidency.
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Paula Swearingen is from West Virginia. All of these candidates are actual progressives from the districts they're running in, so where are you getting this idea that it's all a bunch of coastal elites attempting to come in and run everybody's way of life for them?

And please define what you mean by "urban liberal extremism"
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
And please define what you mean by "urban liberal extremism"
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If you want to see an urban liberal, look in the mirror.




Padawanbater2 said:
Paula Swearingen is from West Virginia. All of these candidates are actual progressives from the districts they're running in, so where are you getting this idea that it's all a bunch of coastal elites attempting to come in and run everybody's way of life for them?
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Swearingen has no chance of being a Senator. It doesn't matter what you or I want.

In some ways, Justice Democrats are just another nationwide PAC. You don't think the majority of their funds come from Texas, West Virginia, Mississippi or Alabama, do you? Of course most the money is coming from wealthier Democratic Districts. Don't lie to yourself.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
If you want to see an urban liberal, look in the mirror.
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I want you to define what you mean when you say "urban liberal extremism"
Fogdog said:
Swearingen has no chance of being a Senator. It doesn't matter what you or I want.
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Your opinion of her chances is irrelevant to the fact she's from West Virginia. It destroys your assertion that JD is a group of "urban liberal extremists" from the coasts coming into communities and forcing their beliefs on everyone
Fogdog said:
In some ways, Justice Democrats are just another nationwide PAC. You don't think the majority of their funds come from Texas, West Virginia, Mississippi or Alabama, do you? Of course most the money is coming from wealthier Democratic Districts. Don't lie to yourself.
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I don't care where their funds come from as long as they come from individual donors
 
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