Some leaves have claw form and no nutes

xxorezxx

Well-Known Member
Hey! I've a girl which is showing new leaves in form of claw and I haven't added any nutes yet, just root juice from biobizz and Alg-a-mic also from bio-bizz. I'm using Biobizz soil All Mix, Watering with tap water which came with 500 EC and I down its PH to 6.4 PH from 8.3. Using a 590w COB at 45cm distance.
I believe that it could be nitrogen toxicity, but I haven't added any nitrogen or other nutes. They are 30 days Old. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
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Buba Blend

Well-Known Member
Hey! I've a girl which is showing new leaves in form of claw and I haven't added any nutes yet, just root juice from biobizz and Alg-a-mic also from bio-bizz. I'm using Biobizz soil All Mix, Watering with tap water which came with 500 EC and I down its PH to 6.4 PH from 8.3. Using a 590w COB at 45cm distance.
I believe that it could be nitrogen toxicity, but I haven't added any nitrogen or other nutes. They are 30 days Old. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
View attachment 3996755 View attachment 3996756 View attachment 3996757
If you mean 500 ppm's not 500 ec then you have the same tap as me.
It is not good to use unless diluted with 3 parts ro to one part tap bringing ppm's to about 150..
The other option is to switch to 100% ro and supplement the cal mag.
 

xxorezxx

Well-Known Member
If you mean 500 ppm's not 500 ec then you have the same tap as me.
It is not good to use unless diluted with 3 parts ro to one part tap bringing ppm's to about 150..
The other option is to switch to 100% ro and supplement the cal mag.
It's 500 us/cm, my bad.
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
it does look like N tox

but its likely a result of too much hormone

im partly guessing here but based on my experience with what I use

I buy amino acids powders and kelp powders from kelp4less.com

they also have root stimulators for sale ... these products are full of plant hormones and too much can cause just what you have

ive done the same thing when I combined a full dose of amino acids with a full dose of kelp... so I try not to use them both together or if I do I cut the dose down to half or less

if you do nothing it will work itself out on its own, not much you really can do at this point anyway
 

Bugeye

Well-Known Member
it does look like N tox

but its likely a result of too much hormone

im partly guessing here but based on my experience with what I use

I buy amino acids powders and kelp powders from kelp4less.com

they also have root stimulators for sale ... these products are full of plant hormones and too much can cause just what you have

ive done the same thing when I combined a full dose of amino acids with a full dose of kelp... so I try not to use them both together or if I do I cut the dose down to half or less

if you do nothing it will work itself out on its own, not much you really can do at this point anyway
True or false, you can claw leaf tips when safe N levels are mixed with hard water? Thought I read somewhere that it is your total EC level that creates the claw, but Im not 100% sure. Thought you might know based on your skill level with nutes.
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
True or false, you can claw leaf tips when safe N levels are mixed with hard water? Thought I read somewhere that it is your total EC level that creates the claw, but Im not 100% sure. Thought you might know based on your skill level with nutes.
yes id agree with this part of the statement

the claw usually is a result of total salinity (hi EC) being high..from whatever sources combined...including your tap water

but hard water only means theres a good amount of calcium in it and likely a higher than neutral PH which I think is from the lime stone in the ground

soft water often has a lower ph which could be from several things, the worst of which would be sodium content

the mineral in the tap water isn't much different than the mineral in your fertilizer except some minerals are more desirable than others and in the case of your tap water you get what you get without filtration

if you have hard water youll need less calmag or possible none
if you have soft water youll need more calmag cuz theres none in the source water
or
if you use an RO you've removed the mineral from your source water and need calmag to get your extra calcium needs

so the idea of soft or hard water causing claw isn't really the question since soft or hard water is more related to ph... its more about the EC from your tap water being added to the EC from your fertilizer solution and becoming over all too hot or too high an EC/PPM
 

Bugeye

Well-Known Member
yes id agree with this part of the statement

the claw usually is a result of total salinity (hi EC) being high..from whatever sources combined...including your tap water

but hard water only means theres a good amount of calcium in it and likely a higher than neutral PH which I think is from the lime stone in the ground

soft water often has a lower ph which could be from several things, the worst of which would be sodium content

the mineral in the tap water isn't much different than the mineral in your fertilizer except some minerals are more desirable than others and in the case of your tap water you get what you get without filtration

if you have hard water youll need less calmag or possible none
if you have soft water youll need more calmag cuz theres none in the source water
or
if you use an RO you've removed the mineral from your source water and need calmag to get your extra calcium needs

so the idea of soft or hard water causing claw isn't really the question since soft or hard water is more related to ph... its more about the EC from your tap water being added to the EC from your fertilizer solution and becoming over all too hot or too high an EC/PPM
Thank you!
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
the only other safe option is to get a water test and rule out elements that could have potential harmful effects

for example if it was sulfur, calcium and iron mostly you might be ok but as a rule the answer is anything that high could be a problem because it likely contains something you don't want or something that's excessive enough to be a detriment
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
question;

do you have any type of filtration system on your water before it comes into the house or is it straight from the ground?

water softener or something like that?

I assume its well water?
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member

Water Quality


All hydroponic/soilless culture systems require sizable quantities of relatively

pure water. The best domestic water supplies and/or water for agricultural

use frequently contain substances and elements that can affect (positively or

negatively) plant growth. Even rainwater collected from the greenhouse covering

may contain both inorganic and organic substances that can affect plant

growth. In many parts of the United States and indeed throughout the world,

water quality can be a major problem for hydroponic/soilless culture use due

to contamination by various inorganic and organic substances.

Therefore, a complete analysis of the water to be used for any type of

hydroponic/soilless culture system is essential. The analysis should include

inorganic and organic components if the water is being taken from a river,

shallow well, or other surface source. When taken from sources other than

these, an inorganic elemental assay will be sufficient to determine elemental

composition and concentration.

Natural water supplies can contain sizable concentrations of some of the

essential elements required by plants, particularly Ca and Mg. In areas where

water is being taken from limestone-based aquifers, it is not unusual for

concentrations of Ca and Mg to be as high as 100 and 30 mg/L (ppm),

respectively. Some natural waters will contain sizable concentrations of Na

and anions such as bicarbonate (HCO3

–), carbonate (CO2

3–), sulfate (SO4

2–),

and chloride (Cl–). In some areas, B may be found in fairly high concentrations.

The Nutrient Solution 73

Sulfide (S–), primarily as iron sulfide, which gives a “rotten egg” smell to water,


is found in some natural waters.

Suggested composition characteristics of waters suitable for use hydroponically

as well as for irrigation have been published. Verwer and Wellman (1980)

established what the maximum mineral concentration would be for water used

in rockwool culture, as shown in Table 7.1. Farnhand et al. (1985) have

established criteria for irrigation water based on salinity, electric conducivity

(EC), total dissolved solids (TDS), and ion content (Table 7.2). Waters et al.

(1972) have set the suitability of water for irrigating pot plants; their data are

given in Table 7.3. Smith (1999) elemental maximums for water for hydroponic

use (Table 7.4). Ideal water-quality guidelines for plug culture and characteristics

of high-quality irrigation water are given in Table 7.5 and Table 7.6.

Table 7.1 Maximum Mineral Concentrations for Irrigation Water Used in

Rockwool Culture

Element/Ion Maximum Concentration (mg/L, ppm)

Chloride (Cl) 50 to 100

Sodium (Na) 30 to 50

Carbonate (CO3) 4.0

Boron (B) 0.7

Iron (Fe) 1.0

Manganese (Mn) 1.0

Zinc (Zn) 1.0

Source: Verwer, F.L. and Wellman, J.J.C., 1980, in Fifth International Congress on Soilless

Culture, International Society for Soilless Culture, Wageningen, The Netherlands.

Table 7.2 Water Quality Guidelines for Irrigation

Degree of Problem

Characteristic None Increasing Severe

EC, dS/ma <0.75 0.75 to 3.0 >3.0

TDS, mg/Lb <480 480 to 1920 >1920

Sodium (Na) sodium absorption ratio

(SAR) value

<3 3 to 9 >9

Chloride (Cl) mg/L <70 70 to 345 >345

Boron (B), mg/L 1.0 1.0 to 2.0 2.0 to

10.0

Ammonium (NH4) and nitrate (NO3), mg/L <5 5 to 30 >30

Bicarbonate (HCO3) mg/L <40 40 to 520 >520

a Electrical conductance.

b Total dissolved solids.

Source: Farnhand, D.S., Hasek, R.F., and Paul, J.L., 1985, Water Quality, Leaflet 2995. Division

of Agriculture Science, University of California, Davis, CA.

74 Hydroponics: A Practical Guide for the Soilless Grower

Surface or pond water may contain disease organisms or algae, which can

pose problems. Algae grows extraordinarily well in most hydroponic culture

systems, plugging pipes and fouling valves. Filtering and/or other forms of

pretreatment are required to ensure that the water used to prepare the nutrient

solution is free from these undesirable organisms and suspended matter.

In most cases, some form of water treatment will be necessary to make

and maintain suitable nutrient solutions. Depending on what an analysis of

the water supply indicates, no special treatment or filtering may be required

to remove suspended matter. However, the grower may at one end of the

quality scale simply have to filter out debris using sand beds or fine-pore

filters; at the other extreme, sophisticated systems dedicated to ion removal

by means of ion exchange or reverse osmosis may be required (Anon., 1997a).

In hard-water areas, there may be sufficient Ca and Mg in the water to

provide a portion or all of the plant requirements. In addition, the micronutrient

element concentration could be sufficient to preclude the need to add this

group of elements to the nutrient solution. These determinations should be

made only on the basis of an elemental analysis of the water (see pages 314).

Table 7.3 Suitability of Water for Irrigating Potted Plants

Water

Classification

Electric

Conductance

(mmho/cm)

Total Dissolved Solids

(Salts), mg/L, ppm

Sodium (% of

Total Solids)

Boron (mg/L,

ppm)

Excellent <0.25 <175 <20 <0.33

Good 0.25 to 0.75 175 to 525 20 to 40 0.33 to 0.67

Permissible 0.75 to 2.0 525 to 1400 40 to 60 0.67 to 1.00

Doubtful 2.0 to 3.0 1400 to 2100 60 to 80 1.00 to 1.25

Unsuitable >3.0 >210 >80 >1.25

Source: Waters, W.E., Geraldson, C.M., and Woltz, S.S., 1972, The Interpretation of Soluble

Salt Tests and Soil Analysis by Different Procedures, AREC Mimeo Report GC-1972,

Bradenton, FL.

Table 7.4 Common Compounds and Elements and the Maximum Levels

Allowable in Water for General Hydroponic Use

Element Concentration, mg/L (ppm)

Boron (B) <1

Calcium (Ca) <200

Carbonates (CO3) <60

Chloride (Cl) <70

Magnesium (Mg) <60

Sodium (Na) <180

Zinc (Zn) <1

Source: Smith, R., 1999, The Growing Edge 11(1):14–16.

The Nutrient Solution 75

Organic chemicals, such as pesticides and herbicides, many of which are

water soluble, can significantly affect plant growth if present even in low

concentrations. Water from shallow wells or from surface water sources in

intensively cropped agricultural areas should be tested for the presence of

these types of chemicals.

Treatment should be employed only if the chemical and/or physical composition

of the water warrants. Obviously, financial and managerial planning

must incorporate the costs of producing nutrient-pure water in a grower’s

specified environment. For example, it may be financially prudent to accept

some crop loss from the use of impure water rather than attempting to recover

the cost of water treatment. Treatment may be as simple and inexpensive a

task as acidifying the water to remove bicarbonates (HCO3) and carbonates

(CO3) or as expensive as complete ion removal by reverse osmosis.


Water samples should be submitted to a testing laboratory for a complete

analysis before use, and the analysis should be repeated whenever a change

in the water source is made. It is also advisable to have the initial nutrient

Table 7.5 Ideal Water Quality Guidelines for Plug Culture

Element/Constituent Optimum Range, mg/L (ppm)

Boron (B) <0.5a

Iron (Fe), Copper (Cu), Zinc (Zn), Manganese (Mn) <1.0a

Calcium (Ca) 50 to 125b

Chloride (Cl) <100

Fluoride (F) <1.0

Magnesium (Mg) 5 to 25b

Phosphate (P) <5

Sodium (Na) <50

Bicarbonate alkalinity <120c

Alkalinity as calcium carbonate <100c

Total soluble salts 650 to 1050

pH 5.8 to 6.4d

Electrical conductivity (EC) 1.0 to 1.5 μS/cm or preferably lesse

a Commercial water-soluble fertilizers usually contain adequate levels of micronutrients. If

your water contains high levels (1 to 5 mg/L) of any of the micronutrients, consult a water

specialist.

b Calcium and magnesium at these levels can be beneficial nutritionally. Use these values

in determining which micronutrients to feed seedlings.

c Water analysis may report bicarbonate alkalinity or express the total alkalinity in terms of

calcium carbonate.

d Water pH range at which alkalinity is low and manageable.

e Electrical conductivity (EC) is now measured in milli-Siemens (mS). Some reports may use

the older expression of millimho (mmho/cm). They are the same. Labs that report “total

soluble salts” or TSS derive this number from the EC. One μS/cm is equal to about 650 to

700 ppm total salts.

Source: Faulkner, S.P., 1998b, The Growing Edge 10(1):87–88.

76 Hydroponics: A Practical Guide for the Soilless Grower

solution assayed to be sure that its composition is as intended before its use.

Instrumental devices and analysis kits can be used when monitoring water

and nutrient solutions (see Chapter 13).









 
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