Sativied's Picture Journal

youknowthekid!

Active Member
sat man, whats up. nice growing as always. have I missed any profound discoveries in the last few weeks? or is it still business as usual. I glanced at the bottle-root containment idea; I like it, but the roots WILL still win bahaha!
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
lmao I had the carrot smell. wonder which is better?!?!
"It differs per strain" ;)

I glanced at the bottle-root containment idea; I like it, but the roots WILL still win bahaha!
Oh they sure will. It's just to buy me some extra time and prevent them from getting entangled as high up and as early as without the bottles.

have I missed any profound discoveries in the last few weeks? or is it still business as usual.
Took a break for a couple of weeks, cleaning up and preparing for next round. Started popping the P6 F2 last night, all 58 of them.

60sitebubbler.jpg

12 hour soak:
The58.jpg

Twin from an F1 seed:
twins2.jpg
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
I usually soak (the slightly larger) cubes in a bowl of water before I flush them through a second time, these with tray and all. After I put a seed in one and covered it up a bit I sort of swing the cube down as if I'd throw it away but hold on to it, to remove the excessive water. Sounds clumsy perhaps but allows for removing the excessive water without pushing the cube together while still draining it thoroughly.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Thanks AP :)

Wish I had some extra space for breeding *sigh*
Oh me too man, me too... *big long sigh* I have only a limit amount of space available, only 1 flower closet (400/600 watt on 4x4') and 2 veg/germ/clone closets of roughly 2x3', and a 3x3x3' pollen vault (to collect pollen from male cuttings). If I'd be "living the dream" I'd have a greenhouse+lab attached and would plant hundreds instead of dozens.


Using a large number of plants is essential for determining the ratios of traits and being able to select the best of the best only, but it occurred to me I don't have to grow them all at once and I don't have to finish the cycle for all of them. Many of the traits I'm selecting for show early, before flowering already (whorled phyllotaxy, frosty seedlings, adapting well to hydroponics, bushy roots instead of spaghetti, sativa-dom, dark green leaves, thick stems, short internode distance, etc, etc).

Of those 58 I will remove (if they all pop) 9 while still being seedlings. Of the remaining 49 about half (most of the males) will be removed after sexing, leaving me with 5x5 or so, from which I will remove more during transition. IF space is needed. I might end up with just 4x4. This round will be about finding one or more nice female phenos that is better and more different from the initial parents (chunk and cannalope haze) than the F1 is. If none of them whorl and none of them is unique/special enough taste-wise, I'm going back to popping F1 seeds. So it's trial and error till I find something I will attempt to actually stabilize (with more trial and error). I'm just getting started really, moving from the "Generating genetic variability" (first step of breeding) to the second step, "Selection".


Some more shots of an F2 I popped earlier to check for early frost:
seedlingfrosttest4.jpg
seedlingfrosttest3.jpg
 

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
Wow man, you just inspired me to venture into the pollin world and pheno hunt! That was a perfect explanation that put some visual thoughts in my mind about how to start a small room. I thought I would need a large space, but now I'm thinking a 2x4 tent I could squeeze in my grow room that would fit 4' floro lights perfectly for vegging experiments . I went from having 2 full rooms and a full basement to having only a 10x10 spare bedroom and I've had to change everything from my growing style to my grow equipment to make it run efficiency. It was a brutal transition :(

That is the frostiest seedling I think I've ever seen by the way! Very impressive trait!

I just stumbled on to some regular seeds of a few gnarly sounding strains that I think I'm going to start very soon now. Next step, grow tent shopping. You have resparked alphas inspiration furnace. Props man! :bigjoint:
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
You can stuff quite a few plants in a small SoG, I dare say more than some commercial seed sellers use in their selections. The main advantage of more space is that it saves time. Obviously you have more chance of hunting down a pheno in a larger selection, in particular in F2 where the traits get segregated and you're looking for the best combination of all the traits (the short hazy frosty sweet high yielding pheno and not the long version of the same for example). For proper breeding (breeding one or more traits true) you need to figure out if the traits you want to breed true are homozygous or heterozygous, and how they inherit (co/partial/complete dominant, or recessive for example). That is also easier/faster with large plant counts.

For example, if you cross two (true heterozygous) F1s you get the typical ratio of 25% AA, 50%Aa, and 25% aa (which if AA and Aa express in the same phenotype, i.e. is dominant, means 75%-25%, or 3:1 (see figure 1) If you cross AA x Aa you get the typical ratio 50% AA and 50% Aa. Point is, observing these ratios can give you an idea of whether the traits are homozygous or heterozygous. On 10 plants, the 50-50 ratio could theoretically lead to 100% of those 10 being AA. Or you could get 5 AA and 5 Aa and think you crossed heterozygous with homozygous, or worse, homozygous with homozygous and bred it true, while with 10 plants it's entirely possible you got the typical F1 ratio and just didn't pop any of the aa seeds.

Check out my comment on plant count in my backcrossing thread here: http://rollitup.org/t/backcrossing-your-own-variety.840329/ The same thing I said regarding plant count in the 3rd post also applies to females. Even if you want to veg longer to see just how they veg, you can still trim half the plant before you transition, or go as far as leaving only the main bud on, to finish flowering and test taste and trich levels etc. It doesn't have to be pretty every single round. 25 cramped together works a lot better for determining ratios and selecting for certain traits than 9 beautiful 3-oz plants do. Running 25 plants from the same generation twice (and keeping clones of the best from the first run, and logging trait ratios) is obviously even better.

What it comes down to is that it depends a lot on what your goals are. If you want to convince others you're the real king of cannabis then closet breeding isn't the way to go, but that certainly does not mean you cannot breed for specific traits and enjoy the fun of breeding. Even if you end up breeding only a small amount of important traits true, by then you will know how they inherit and backcrossing those strains into for example a better yielder or shorter flowering strain is a lot easier.

And it takes so long it give plenty of time to post long posts...

Anyway, good luck and keep me posted or let me know if you start a thread.
 

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
Great advice sativied, I still have so much to learn on breeding. I just would like to play around with it for fun pretty much and make a strain that suits me well. Back 10 years ago or so I accidentally made a strain and got super lucky. I had a Tangerine kush that was a great plant and I picked up some northern lights reg beans and I had a male nl pollinate the tang kush. I didn't catch it soon enough and got 100s of seeds. So I popped a few of them and there was a perfect cross that looked exactly like the kush but denser buds, better smell and shorter flowering time. Needless to say I kept her around for years until I lost her about a year ago. I have to start researching the aa, Aa, and AA stuff because I get really confused on how that works, but I'll enjoy learning and will definitely check out your back crossing thread. Thanks for the time explaining everything to me! Much appreciated!
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Venturi. Nice, man. I'm jealous of your bubbles. Really like the floating tray proto, too.
Thanks, it's just a DIY venturi attached to the water pump I used for the sprayers (piece of pvc pipe heated, narrowed at a point by pulling a string, hole in the narrow area with air tube attached). Works pretty good though. I attached an 200 liter p/h air pump to the air tube (the black tube bottom left near analogue meter) but that actually slowed it down so it's passive now. The returning end of the chiller occupies a plant site with an air stone in it, and got a couple of more in there just in case.

venturi.jpg

Looks slow on the pic perhaps but it really blasts, the air intake makes quite a bit of noise.

Ended up not letting the trays float but instead have a 2 inch layer of air between them and the water level so bubbles break and disturb the surface as well.
 

budolskie

Well-Known Member
I love this thread and a bit gutted my nft is on hold...
But will deffo be starting one next year...

Your set ups mint sat lad
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Hey Budolksie, how's it's going?

a bit gutted my nft is on hold...
Me too man me too, I miss my tubes...

Going to dismantle the new test setup today. Things went pretty bad very fast over the weekend.

Got a heavier pump (air pump for pond) on monday but was too late, some dead roots, even some slime. The bottles caused stagnated spots and the plants were too young to defend themselves. Cut the bottles open for more flow/movement, later trimmed them entirely so already defeated the purpose of running this setup. Instead of trying to make it work while it's not suitable for my purposes I salvaged the best 15 of the 44 P6-F2 so far, which are now back in small DWC boxes. Picking out some more, probably going in hempy bottles for now. Some are too small or too much affected to waste time on trying to get back to healthy (kinda like rooting a clone) but I have too many now anyway... There's one that amazed me with nearly sparkly white roots and didn't get affected. It is at the moment a likely candidate for become an F3 parent.

Since I can grow only all females in the tubes I don't know what I'm going to do next. I can veg them in the small DWC boxes till they show sex but that takes a while in my T8 veg box, or clone them and sex them like I did last time, or sex the clones... or use hempy buckets like I did with a seed run earlier this year.
 
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