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Safest food grade diy ph down

Discussion in 'Do It Yourself' started by applepoop1984, Jun 8, 2017.

  1.  
    dstroy

    dstroy Well-Known Member

    Ok, sulfuric acid causes cancer.

    It's an IARC group one classification

    https://www.osha.gov/dts/chemicalsampling/data/CH_268700.html

    Nitric and phosphoric are not known to cause cancer. Only the workers that inhaled sulfuric acid got cancer. All inorganic acids are dangerous.

    Just because our bodies need sulfur, doesn't mean that all of the different physical forms of sulfur are compatible with our physiology. (Like sulfuric acid, or sulfur dioxide)

    Chloride is necessary for the chemical reaction that causes stomata to open and close. It's found in all plant tissue.
     
    applepoop1984 likes this.
  2.  
    dstroy

    dstroy Well-Known Member

    Maybe you live by the water, where there is sufficient chlorine in the air to not cause deficiency. One observation by one uncontrolled experiment does not constitute concrete evidence to the contrary of the mountain of scientific data collected on essential plant nutrients funded by billions of dollars of big ag that concluded that they increase yields when fertilizing with potassium chloride in the Midwest.
     
    applepoop1984 likes this.
  3.  
    cannabineer

    cannabineer Ursus marijanus

    It only causes cancer as a "strong inorganic aerosol" i.e. acid smoke.

    Take simplest precautions to avoid inhaling that and the cancer risk goes away.

    I would choose sulfuric as a pH-down without reservation. I use phosphoric now (because i have it at hand) and in my old NFT grow I chased the pH with reagent nitric.

    I would avoid hydrochloric however (with all respect to @GreatwhiteNorth, one of RIU's true gentlemen) for a coupla reasons. Not least among these is that HCl fumes are very damaging to equipment made entirely or partly of metal.
     
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  4.  
    cannabineer

    cannabineer Ursus marijanus

    Big ag generally is concerned with other genera e.g. Triticum and Prunus. Chloride need or toleration varies among the lot of them.

    In Europe the cheapest form of garden K is kainite, mineral potasium chloride. There is a list of plants (asparagus among them iirc) that carried kainite toxicity warnings. So for most plants, kainite is K yes and Cl ~we'll tolerate it~, for a net gain.

    Tell me, how did KCl fare against, oh, K2SO4? They did that control, no? That would separate the effects of the two ions in kainite.
     
    churchhaze likes this.
  5.  
    dstroy

    dstroy Well-Known Member

    You know, this argument isn't really worth it. I don't know if they had control fields, and I don't care to research it.

    Sulfuric acid can cause cancer, the other two acids aren't known to. I don't see the point in arguing about this either, it's not really apples and oranges if one can cause cancer (at least to me). I can buy any of them cheaply enough, my ph down actually is phosphoric, and nitric acid. Already dilute, ready for use.

    According to all of the things that I've read, chloride is an essential plant nutrient in trace amounts. ALL plants, not just certain plants, all tested plants that I've read about.

    Kainite isn't just potassium chloride.
     
    applepoop1984 likes this.
  6.  
    cannabineer

    cannabineer Ursus marijanus

    You're right about the kainite. I got it mixed up with mineral KCl.

    As for the other argument, I maintain that H2SO4 is cheap, non-toxic and safe if used by adults.

    I am certain that some chloride is necessary. But i controlled it to <1ppm, and the plants grew very well.

    So it becomes a subjective response to a variable supply of objective fact. In my opinion, of course.

    ~edit~ mineral KCl is sylvine
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
    Enigma likes this.
  7.  
    churchhaze

    churchhaze Well-Known Member

    There are so many better choice salts than KCl to provide K. KNO3 (~39%, 47% K2O equivalent), KH2PO4 (28%, 34% K2O equivalent) are my sources... Of course there's also KOH for pH up which is ~70% K. (84% K2O equivalent)

    People here make the same observations about silicates. "I added potassium silicate and the plants were noticeably better therefore cannabis must want silica". But K2SiO3 is ~51% K (61.2% K2O equivalent)

    At least cannabis does need some Cl.. It doesn't need any Si...
     
    Chunky Stool likes this.
  8.  
    dstroy

    dstroy Well-Known Member

    I mean, it looks like there are a ton of plants that benefit from Si. Just sayin.

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=silica+plant+nutrient+&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0,40&as_vis=1

    Just because it isn't specifically required doesn't mean that it doesn't help.
     
    applepoop1984 likes this.
  9.  
    applepoop1984

    applepoop1984 Well-Known Member

    That's not entirely true the reason sulfuric is more dangerous than phosphoric is because sulfuric causes chemical as well as thermal Burns is a carcinogen and is about 6 times as strong as phosphoric acid you could make the argument that it is 6 times as dangerous based on the pH alone
     
  10.  
    cannabineer

    cannabineer Ursus marijanus

    No.

    Phosphoric acid produces chemical burns like a champ.

    The carcinogenicity is under circumstances no remotely competent home chemist will ever set up.

    As for 6 time as strong - by what measure? The concept of pH loses meaning once the acid becomes highly concentrated, which is how phosphoric and sulfuric acids are supplied.

    So no, you cannot make the argument without doing injury to some of the basic concepts. What makes me wonder is, why even try unless championing a personal bias? I have seen no argument against sulfuric in these pages that does not reduce to preference made policy.
     
    Enigma likes this.
  11.  
    applepoop1984

    applepoop1984 Well-Known Member

    Never said phosphoric acid doesn't produce chemical burns and I didn't do the math but it's about four to six times as strong as phosphoric I'll get back to you when I do the math. Furthermore this write-up isn't for a competent home chemist it's for a beginner grower once a safer alternative to battery acid. No bias at all just looking for a safer method. And yes sulfuric is a listed carcinogen and to completely discredit that his foolhardy at best. Just look through this thread poster who works with every type of acid known to man said he would use phosphoric over sulfuric any day of the week but prefers citric
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  12.  
    cannabineer

    cannabineer Ursus marijanus

    That is why I have not completely discredited it. Your reply insinuates that i did.

    However to beat the cancer drum when sulfuric acid generally is not carcinogenic ... constitutes intellectual dishonesty. I'm here to oppose that sort of bias dressed up as reason.

    Beginner growers have no business undertaking diy hydro nutrient compounding unless they have a degree or equivalent experience in a relevant field. So I disagree that this discussion is pitched at the beginners. I legitimately presume some education, credentialed or not.

    I will not use citric acid. It has the same basic weakness as acetic: it is a carbon source for bacteria. That is a source of error (bacteria will play absolute hob with things like pH management, been there done that) that i won't accept.

    I'd hoped citric would be a good solution. But i do not want to feed opportunistic bugs alongside the plants. Potential cost exceeds benefit, especially as I am familiar with the Big Three mineral acids discussed above.
     
    Enigma and churchhaze like this.
  13.  
    indianajones

    indianajones Well-Known Member

    noob, there's always co2 in your water, it forms carbonic acid. it's called
    the carbon dioxide- carbonic acid equilibrium. the "chemistry" in here is
    making my head hurt.

    the safest food grade pH down would be citric acid. commonly available
    at grocery stores, you know, because it's food grade.
     
  14.  
    applepoop1984

    applepoop1984 Well-Known Member

    mission accomplished
     
  15.  
    churchhaze

    churchhaze Well-Known Member

    cannabineer likes this.
  16.  
    cannabineer

    cannabineer Ursus marijanus

    Precisely. Safety must be multiplied by effectiveness to arrive at a more useful measure of the material's suitability for the task. Too many effective household products have been replaced by somewhat safer, much less capable replacements. I don't think of that as progress.
     
    churchhaze likes this.
  17.  
    applepoop1984

    applepoop1984 Well-Known Member

    I don't think a new grow are using sulfuric acid progress phosphoric is just as good safer is not a carcinogen and is sold in food grade quality you have no argument
     
  18.  
    churchhaze

    churchhaze Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  19.  
    applepoop1984

    applepoop1984 Well-Known Member

    I disagree I'd say phosphoric acid is the best choice and citric acid as well for new grower probably not a good idea to be messing around with sulfuric acid
     
  20.  
    cannabineer

    cannabineer Ursus marijanus

    I wish you nothing but success with your chosen pH-down agent.
     
    Enigma likes this.

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