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Safest food grade diy ph down

Discussion in 'Do It Yourself' started by applepoop1984, Jun 8, 2017.

  1.  
    applepoop1984

    applepoop1984 Well-Known Member

    busted we know he's arguing just to be right, why edit your comment?
     
  2.  
    churchhaze

    churchhaze Well-Known Member

    I'm not the one who brought up urea, but I will make it clear to hydro growers who like success to avoid fertilizers that provide the majority of N through urea. Those fertilizers are meant for soil and potting mixes. Calcium nitrate is the key to hydro.
     
    cannabineer and Enigma like this.
  3.  
    churchhaze

    churchhaze Well-Known Member

    I am sorry that I edited my post. I didn't realize you were going to respond so quickly. I edited my post before I saw your post. Either way, it's the edited statement I stand by. There's a reason I edited it. (I know there's some urea is in many popular formulas).

    Sorry, but you're wrong about the pure urea being meant for hydroponics. It's not how they advertise it and it's not how you should use it.
     
  4.  
    Dumme

    Dumme Well-Known Member

    I use 100% urea for nitrogen, in my hydroponic (soil-less) aquaponic system. My last harvest was 1.45gpw. No 2 gardens are alike. I don't use Calcium Nitrate.
     
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  5.  
    Flagg420

    Flagg420 Well-Known Member

    Am I the only fucker here who thinks DIY PH down is.... just a bit much?

    I feel its not all that expensive, or hard to come by.... and if needed in large amounts, and often..... theres probably something else that needs adjusting that is causing the Ph problem....

    DIY an LED setup, or a tent, DIY some crazy water system, or a vert cage.......... but Ph down? Fucking Ph down?

    Thats either a very bored person, or a very cheap person..... I love saving money, but theres gotta be a line somewhere....

    Meh... mebbe its just me... /endrant
     
  6.  
    churchhaze

    churchhaze Well-Known Member

    What's the difference between DIY pH down and commercial pH down? In fact, how can you even call a DIY with one ingredient a DIY? They're simply buying pH down and calling it DIY.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
    Budley Doright and Flagg420 like this.
  7.  
    Dumme

    Dumme Well-Known Member

    ... lol...I make home made DIY urea.
     
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  8.  
    churchhaze

    churchhaze Well-Known Member

    How do you supply calcium?
     
  9.  
    Dumme

    Dumme Well-Known Member

    Mostly tap water.
    Edit:
    ...but I have a do have calcium sulfate as backup, and I do use DE foodgrade, for bug control.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  10.  
    Dumme

    Dumme Well-Known Member

    My target calcium is approximately 100-125ppm. My city tap is more than adequate for that. I rarely show calcium deficiencies.
     
    applepoop1984 likes this.
  11.  
    applepoop1984

    applepoop1984 Well-Known Member

    The main reason I did this write-up just because there's a similar thread at the top of the DIY forum for do-it-yourself PH down using sulfuric acid. That write-up does not even mention sulfuric acid being a carcinogen as well as how dangerous it can be. I'd say a $50 bottle of phosphoric acid which is much safer and is not a carcinogen and will last you probably a lifetime of growing is a significantly better option. Is that seem reasonable or am I over-reaching
     
  12.  
    cannabineer

    cannabineer Ursus marijanus

    Aquaponics will convert the urea to nitrate via fermentation and bacterial oxidation. So this is not a representative use of urea.

    I blend my nutes from inorganic chemicals, and calcium nitrate (the available double salt with some ammonium) is my go-to N source.
     
    churchhaze likes this.
  13.  
    Dumme

    Dumme Well-Known Member

    The nitrification of urea works the same regardless of substrate.
     
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  14.  
    cannabineer

    cannabineer Ursus marijanus

    All mineral acids are dangerous in careless or untrained hands. I see very little difference in the Big Three: phoaphoric, nitric, sulfuric. (I discount hydrochloric because the chloride ion is useless to Cannabis and only serves to lock useful ions out.)

    I find sulfuric acid to be a good way to regulate pH, and it is nearly neutral ... not in a Brønsted sense but in terms of shifting the usual nutrient ion concentrations. Battery acid is cheap, clean and effective.

    Phosphoric acid has all the dangers of sulfuric: it is corrosive, non-volatile and exothermic upon dilution.

    So it is my opinion that becoming parochial about pH-down choice is argument for its own sake.

    This is all jmo, but that opinion has been shaped by my spending a lifetime in the synthetic-chemist shenanigan. Fwiw.
     
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  15.  
    cannabineer

    cannabineer Ursus marijanus

    I do not agree. My hydro was aseptic and the organisms were not available. With aquaponics, you are running an aerobic community that does the important part: urea to ammonium to nitrate.

    Few folks care to run an aseptic grow ... and then many discount the assistance of the microherd.
     
    churchhaze likes this.
  16.  
    cannabineer

    cannabineer Ursus marijanus

    DE is nearly pure silica; no calcium.

    I use calcium sulfate in my formulae.

    It is little appreciated that the macronutrients are not only N P K but also S Ca Mg. Hydroponickers need to work with that, esp. when using RO or DI water as I am wont to do.
     
  17.  
    dstroy

    dstroy Well-Known Member

    http://www.iclfertilizers.com/Fertilizers/Knowledge Center/Chloride.pdf

    https://www.ipipotash.org/udocs/chloride-an-essential-nutrient.pdf

    http://ucce.ucdavis.edu/files/repositoryfiles/ca1009p10-64551.pdf

    Chloride is an essential plant nutrient. It can be absorbed through leaves as well as roots.

    Were you meaning that it didn't need to be present in nutrient solution because it is already present in the air? Or are you aware of a new study that discounts chloride from Cannabis?

    I disagree on the safety aspect of your opinion, sulfuric acid is a known carcinogen while both nitric and phosphoric are not considered carcinogenic. That's extra danger on top of the immediate danger of acids.

    But hey, you do you.
     
  18.  
    cannabineer

    cannabineer Ursus marijanus

    Many plants tolerate chloride well. Mangrove is one. Cannabis isn't one. 100ppm Cl- will lock out nitrate and other monovalents. It is like feeding a starving person Metamucil ... which strikes me as wilfully cruel. ~shrug~

    Sulfuric acid is not a carcinogen. Sulfate is a necessary human nutrient.

    So I challenge both your arguments at the root level of the facts employed to make them.

    ~edit~ I found reason to change my stance on the carcinogenicity of sulfuric acid.

    https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/content/profiles/stronginorganicacidmists.pdf

    However the claim is specific to H2SO4 aerosols. Using a simple face mask while compounding the pH-down will remove this hazard. Sulfuric has not shown any cancer risk by ingestion or skin contact. Typically, other symptoms predominate.

    I also imagine that the carcinogenicity of the "strong inorganic mists" will prove to be similar regardless of the mineral acid used. I am thinking of phosphoric.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
  19.  
    Dumme

    Dumme Well-Known Member

    My target Chloride ppm is in the 110 range.

    ...throughout the grow (flower & veg)
     
  20.  
    cannabineer

    cannabineer Ursus marijanus

    I am sure your plants grow well in that. Also in an aquaponic system you cannot optimize for any one species. The animals and plants that are part of your biome need to share one solution. I bet the fish need chloride.

    Since I grew hydro and not aqua, I did not need to seek and implement the optimum compromise that aquaponics embodies. I used reagent-grade feedstocks and RO/DI water. I blended my own micros. i controlled that grow from seed to flower. It worked great. I kept chloride below 1ppm. So i conclude that Cannabis needs no more than trace chloride, and I want to keep those ppm for known nutrient ions.

    I will admit this. Cannabis has a pretty broad optimum of various nutrient concentrations. A half-ideal solution will get you 90% of potential, while a perfect solution gives you an increment of, at best,an increment of 10%.

    So I am a big believer in going with proven effective solutions; the potential for improvement on them is usually slight.

    I am not assailing your method. I came here to defend sulfuric acid as an eminently sensible choice as a hydroponic pH-down agent.
     
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