Reverse Engineering everyone's nutrients

OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
i didn't realize i was a hero, i'm just a cheap bastard.
Click to expand...
I'm Scottish and a bastard but thrifty doesn't mean cheap! :lol:

ttystikk said:
Right? Same here.

I'm not buying the 'subtle additives' thing about AN or any other water bottled nutrient line. I don't WANT PGRs in my nutes, thanks! And I'm a big fan of knowing exactly what I'm feeding my plants that are going into my face.

Old med user should use some of that chemistry knowledge to divine what is and is not in the major brands. I bet he'll find the same that @MisterBlah and many of the rest of us did; that the mystery of the bottles is there just to separate the uneducated from their money.
Click to expand...
I'm certain that I could grow as well or better were I to delve into the science of making my own nutes but dammit man I'll be 62 by the time you read this and Keeping It Simple Stoner has become my mantra since I started doing my own version of DWC back in '01.

I just buy the base nutes and the last ones I got were $40/gal. 3 - part AN pH perfect for $40/gal when to buy it up here in BumF**k, Alberta at $25/quart is dirt cheap to me. Other than that I must have Big Bud and Rhino Skin.

I am also very thrifty with my use of the nutes and have done DWC runs without ever changing the nutes with great results. The first 3 gallons of AN I got in '02 lasted until a few years ago and there is still some bloom and micro left for the wife's tomatoes. lol

I did at least 40 tubs and many more plants in promix off those jugs so got way more than my money's worth with so much less work than blending my own.

Learning all this stuff is like going back to school for chem class again. Hard enough in my 30s but might just kill me in my 60s after a minor stroke 3 years ago. :lol:

Good on you and all that want to advance the freedom that DIY nutes give you. It can only advance our collective knowledge of the best way to grow our favorite plant! :clap:

:peace:
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
OldMedUser said:
I'm Scottish and a bastard but thrifty doesn't mean cheap! :lol:



I'm certain that I could grow as well or better were I to delve into the science of making my own nutes but dammit man I'll be 62 by the time you read this and Keeping It Simple Stoner has become my mantra since I started doing my own version of DWC back in '01.

I just buy the base nutes and the last ones I got were $40/gal. 3 - part AN pH perfect for $40/gal when to buy it up here in BumF**k, Alberta at $25/quart is dirt cheap to me. Other than that I must have Big Bud and Rhino Skin.

I am also very thrifty with my use of the nutes and have done DWC runs without ever changing the nutes with great results. The first 3 gallons of AN I got in '02 lasted until a few years ago and there is still some bloom and micro left for the wife's tomatoes. lol

I did at least 40 tubs and many more plants in promix off those jugs so got way more than my money's worth with so much less work than blending my own.

Learning all this stuff is like going back to school for chem class again. Hard enough in my 30s but might just kill me in my 60s after a minor stroke 3 years ago. :lol:

Good on you and all that want to advance the freedom that DIY nutes give you. It can only advance our collective knowledge of the best way to grow our favorite plant! :clap:

:peace:
Click to expand...
Be that as it may, I 'blend' exactly four components that all dissolve readily into a nutrient solution. It takes minutes per batch. The hard work is done for me by the commercial dry nutrient manufacturer; the base mix and micros are all in the bag of premix, leaving me to to add only calcium nitrate, epsom salt and monopotassium phosphate, aka MKP. This is NOT difficult for anyone with experience using a gram scale, as I'm quite sure most of us are on this website, lol

50 gallons of nutrient solution costs me much less than $2, even in Canadian currency.
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Be that as it may, I 'blend' exactly four components that all dissolve readily into a nutrient solution. It takes minutes per batch. The hard work is done for me by the commercial dry nutrient manufacturer; the base mix and micros are all in the bag of premix, leaving me to to add only calcium nitrate, epsom salt and monopotassium phosphate, aka MKP. This is NOT difficult for anyone with experience using a gram scale, as I'm quite sure most of us are on this website, lol

50 gallons of nutrient solution costs me much less than $2, even in Canadian currency.
Click to expand...

No DUH but still a lot more work than accurately measuring some decent nutes to keep my ppm in hydro in the range I want with no more thought than a fleeting calculation od how many CCs of what I need to make those plants happy.

Like me you have enough experience to actually read your plants fairly well. This is a very learned experience and even people with decades of practice can never get it right. You got the Green Thumb or not thing. lol

I can't grow decent plants of any kind in real dirt but blow friends away with what I can do in DWC or soilless with my AN nutes. They've served me well for 15 years and seem to get better all the time.

Compared to what I pay for the electricity to grow my girls it's a very minor cost. I'm pretty sure my bill for RO water each round is more than the cost of my nutes but I happily pay for that.

For me it's all about easy of use. I take 4 to 5 weeks to dry my bud enough to put it in jars and spend another month burping them before they are dry enough to store without fear of mould. The cure is the secret to the smoothest toke.

I got scales up the wahzoo with a '64 Mettler analytical balance good for 0.0001 accuracy +/- 0,0005g + others not in this pic. I'm a Libra so it's always been a thing for me to be as accurate as I can.

Scales01.jpg

Note the weight on the lab balance. ;)

:peace:
 
Cilantrillo

Cilantrillo

Member
Redoctober said:
Do we know what's in Roots Excelurator?

I have used it in the past and must say that it does work very well, but is absurdly expensive
Also it doesn't have a very long shelf life
One bottle that I had sitting around for over a year caused root infections that killed a few of my plants
would love to do a diy version
Click to expand...
 

Attachments

Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
this is a close to a quantifiable experiment as i'm liklely to get.
i just sprayed this girl with 1ppm tria, 50 ppm 6-bap, and .5 gram per liter of brassinolide.
the plant is actually in the 6th week of flower, and stopped stretching 2 weeks ago. that would have been the ideal time to spray it, but i just received the 6-bap today, so we'll see.
the amounts are from other peoples experiments i have been reading. some of the pdfs and articles say 300 ppm for the 6-bap, but 2 different people growing cannabis independently said they got better results under 100 ppm, when they used more they got a lot of foxtailing and distorted leaf growth.
so, i labelled the 3 largest colas on this white widow, a,b,and c. the first pic is bud a, the second is an overall view, and the last 3 are a,b,and c, measured from the surface of the pot.
i'll update in 4 or 5 days unless something spectacular happens, and we'll see what happens
100_2187.JPG 100_2194.JPG 100_2195.JPG 100_2196.JPG
100_2197.JPG
know its a little beat up but i have too many nosey neighbors, to keep the smell down i have to keep the fan turned up 8(
 
Last edited:
Redoctober

Redoctober

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
this is a close to a quantifiable experiment as i'm liklely to get.
i just sprayed this girl with 1ppm tria, 50 ppm 6-bap, and .5 gram per liter of brassinolide.
the plant is actually in the 6th week of flower, and stopped stretching 2 weeks ago. that would have been the ideal time to spray it, but i just received the 6-bap today, so we'll see.
the amounts are from other peoples experiments i have been reading. some of the pdfs and articles say 300 ppm for the 6-bap, but 2 different people growing cannabis independently said they got better results under 100 ppm, when they used more they got a lot of foxtailing and distorted leaf growth.
so, i labelled the 3 largest colas on this white widow, a,b,and c. the first pic is bud a, the second is an overall view, and the last 3 are a,b,and c, measured from the surface of the pot.
i'll update in 4 or 5 days unless something spectacular happens, and we'll see what happens
View attachment 3807570 View attachment 3807571 View attachment 3807572 View attachment 3807573
View attachment 3807574
know its a little beat up but i have too many nosey neighbors, to keep the smell down i have to keep the fan turned up 8(
Click to expand...
Awesome looking buds Roger!
I'm always afraid to spray buds because of mold, but if you have good air circulation I'm sure it'll be fine...I mean, it rains in nature right?!?!
I'm curious to see what effects you find at this stage of flower

What morphological changes do you expect from the 3-part mix?
Bud swelling?
More internodal stretch? Less internodal stretch?
more side bud development?

I guess I'm asking what was your thought process/reasoning that lead you to this mixture?
(I was reading through that Shaggy's Guide to hormones thread, and it's jammed full of information, but in a way it almost seemed to complicate what hormone(s) to deliver to that plant at what stage for desired effects e.g. bigger roots, less stretch, more branching, bud swelling etc...)
There's a lot to test out. I feel like we've just scratched the surface
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=226107&page=17
reading through this whole thread there was a lot of dumbassery, but a couple of guys who seemed to know what they were talking about....sounds familiar, doesn't it?
what i hope to get is great huge stem breaking colas that still have potency and good flavor...
if you used this formula before the stretch stops, i believe you'll get more stretch, but also more branching and budsites. i'm hoping that using it after the stretch stops on its own will result in a considerable increase in mass. i would have liked to use it two weeks ago, about 2 or 3 days after i was sure it had quit stretching, to give it more time to work. the only real concern i have is it might grow excessive leaves, which i'll have to prune if it does. i may have to induce senescence when the trichs get ripe, if i do i plan to use rm3's boiling water technique one week before i want to harvest.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=226107&page=9
check out the pics humbleguy posted, some on the next page too.
i think hes using too much, too early, but you can see the general effect.the added effect of the tria and the brass i'm adding should counteract the stunting effect of the 6-bap. if used once right at the end of stretch, i think he would have gotten MUCH better results. the results i'm hoping for myself.
 
Last edited:
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
i don't see a huge result yet, but it has only been 5 days, and this plant has about another 2 weeks left, so we'll see what happens before the end.
i tried to get as close to the camera angles i used last time as i could
100_2209.JPG 100_2210.JPG 100_2211.JPG 100_2213.JPG 100_2214.JPG
kind of interesting to watch the fade progress, hard to gauge it when you're seeing it every day
 
Last edited:
Peter Vakomies

Peter Vakomies

Member
The truth will float to the top of this long thread, if we stir it gently... And learn a thing or two...

Liquid concentrate fertilizers sold to cannabis growers are not worth the cost, and can never offer a guaranteed minimum analysis, and are never used by professional growers (ie greenhouse operators).

And remember; all liquid-additives are loaded with preservatives, but they are not listed on the label or MSDS. These bottles would explode on the shelf if not for the big dose of unlisted preservatives they are full of. I worked for a major manufacturer of these liquid concentrates, so I know from experience what goes into those bottles.

Things like methyl paraben and sodium benzoate are used together, in the same bottle even yielding benzene, and these are known to cause cancer and pollute. "Liquid Karma" is actually liquid-paraben, liquid "Carbo-load" is another bottle full of preservatives, and things like "Monkey-Juice" are just monkey buisness... If people knew what else is in those bottles, you'd stop buying them.

I agree with TTysttick, the cheapest, most complete, best minimum-analysis-guarantee will come from using this well known, professional greenhouse operator nutrient recipe:

1.0 g per liter of Plant Prod 20-20-20 (veg) = 'base fertilizer'
0.2 g per liter of Epsom salts
0.3 g per liter of calcium nitrate
pH up (Potassium silicate, or KOH)

This recipe will yield the following complete nutrient solution for your plants:

N 244 ppm Ca 56 ppm B 0.2 ppm Mn 0.5 ppm
P 200 ppm Mg 19 ppm Cu 0.5 ppm Zn 0.5 ppm
K 200 ppm SO4 26 ppm Fe 1 ppm Mo 0.05 ppm

Use MKP at 0.25g per liter if you want a "bloom booster"; that is what they are all made of - mono potassium phosphate. This will add about 190 ppm of P and K to the reservoir.

This is all you will ever need ! These 4 dry products always offer a correct "guaranteed minimum analysis", which liquid-concentrates can't. This is what existed long before GH, Botanicare or Advanced Nutrients tried to sell their "science in a bottle", and we were growing everything we wanted to grow, just fine.

Choose a brand of base fertilizer that has more chelated iron in it - the cheap brands have less micros, especially iron.

Switch base fertilizers to Plant Prod 15-30-15 during blooming, and then 8-20-30 when finishing the crops.

Listen to what TTysttick said, and what every professional greenhouse operator knows. Professional growers never use liquid concentrates, that idea is a marketing scam invented long ago to sell water to people who don't know any better. Why buy kool aid with the water already added?!

Perfect plant nutrition is achieved at the lowest cost by mixing these 3 professional grade products, made by scientists who provide guaranteed minimum analyses for every element. Liquid concentrates can't offer the same grarantees, and some manufacturers just lie about whats in the bottles, never mind the unlisted preservatives that they have to rely on.

So is anyone else ready to stop using liquid concentrates ?!
 
swiftkillpapa

swiftkillpapa

Well-Known Member
So I kinda skipped to the end but I have a question. I just got a nectar of the gods sample and I was looking into using it. But I was curious how it was made. They say it's organic and continue to call it digested. Which made me wonder how organic bottled fertilizers are made. They have very little potassium but a ton of calcium. So I was curious to get some input. I have been making super soils for a few years but would mind making super nutrients instead. Thanks for the help
 
Peter Vakomies

Peter Vakomies

Member
Powder fertilizers are not bad for plants, try some! All modern greenhouse growers use them with 100% success.

Just use a base powder fertilizer at 1g/L like a 15-30-15 or 20-20-20 for N,P,K and all chelated micros. Then get Calcium Nitrate (0.3g/L) and Magnesium Sulfate (0.2g/L) for Ca and Mg. Three powders to mix, that's all and it's what plants love, also super cheap! Mono potassium phosphate (MKP) is your 'bloom booster' if you want to use that but I don't.

The best "organic" soil-fertilizer in the universe is Seasoil - it will blow you away to see this stuff make plants grow into jurassic-like behemoths! I have never seen or known such a super-soil; it makes cannabis roots grow upwards and then out of the top-dressed Seasoil, diving back down again like dolphin-roots ! Roots don't usually grow up and out of the soil, but plants grow new roots like teeth for Seasoil ! The whole plant responds to Seasoil; in a few days stems get thicker, new nodes form without stem stretch, and new growing tips will 'throw' out leaves, like you've never seen!

Use this as a top dressing or mix it in as 50% of the soil volume. There is nothing like Seasoil - try it and you'll be converted for life!

http://www.seasoil.com/

A totally complete super-soil formula is to use 50% Seasoil mixed with Promix, then topdress with Doloprill lime for extra Cal-Mag. With this soil mix you can irrigate with just water, and topdress every 3 weeks with more Seasoil and Doloprill.

http://www.naturesintent.com/dolopril


Concerning preservatives, methyl paraben and sodium benzoate are going to be in every "organic" bottled liquid. They are used all the time, and you can bet they are in every liquid concentrate, including "Nectar of The Gods". It's a totally deceitful practice to not report these preservatives anywhere, but they are using them in generous amounts (ie many percent by weight). They could not keep the bottles from going rancid without large amounts of preservatives in every batch. I have watched the mixing of many batches of liquid concentrates and the methyl paraben is used in bucket-fulls, and sodium benzoate in kilos at a time.

Above I was incorrect; I should have said that the combination of sodium benzoate and ascorbic acid are very bad. These are used together in high amounts in many bottled "fertilizers' - which has been flagged by the FDA as a dangerous combination making benzene, a carcinogen.

It's been known in the food industry for awhile and even soda pop is likely to be contaminated by benzene;

http://www.rense.com/general74/benz.htm
 
swiftkillpapa

swiftkillpapa

Well-Known Member
Peter Vakomies said:
Powder fertilizers are not bad for plants, try some! All modern greenhouse growers use them with 100% success.

Just use a base powder fertilizer at 1g/L like a 15-30-15 or 20-20-20 for N,P,K and all chelated micros. Then get Calcium Nitrate (0.3g/L) and Magnesium Sulfate (0.2g/L) for Ca and Mg. Three powders to mix, that's all and it's what plants love, also super cheap! Mono potassium phosphate (MKP) is your 'bloom booster' if you want to use that but I don't.

The best "organic" soil-fertilizer in the universe is Seasoil - it will blow you away to see this stuff make plants grow into jurassic-like behemoths! I have never seen or known such a super-soil; it makes cannabis roots grow upwards and then out of the top-dressed Seasoil, diving back down again like dolphin-roots ! Roots don't usually grow up and out of the soil, but plants grow new roots like teeth for Seasoil ! The whole plant responds to Seasoil; in a few days stems get thicker, new nodes form without stem stretch, and new growing tips will 'throw' out leaves, like you've never seen!

Use this as a top dressing or mix it in as 50% of the soil volume. There is nothing like Seasoil - try it and you'll be converted for life!

http://www.seasoil.com/

A totally complete super-soil formula is to use 50% Seasoil mixed with Promix, then topdress with Doloprill lime for extra Cal-Mag. With this soil mix you can irrigate with just water, and topdress every 3 weeks with more Seasoil and Doloprill.

http://www.naturesintent.com/dolopril


Concerning preservatives, methyl paraben and sodium benzoate are going to be in every "organic" bottled liquid. They are used all the time, and you can bet they are in every liquid concentrate, including "Nectar of The Gods". It's a totally deceitful practice to not report these preservatives anywhere, but they are using them in generous amounts (ie many percent by weight). They could not keep the bottles from going rancid without large amounts of preservatives in every batch. I have watched the mixing of many batches of liquid concentrates and the methyl paraben is used in bucket-fulls, and sodium benzoate in kilos at a time.

Above I was incorrect; I should have said that the combination of sodium benzoate and ascorbic acid are very bad. These are used together in high amounts in many bottled "fertilizers' - which has been flagged by the FDA as a dangerous combination making benzene, a carcinogen.

It's been known in the food industry for awhile and even soda pop is likely to be contaminated by benzene;

http://www.rense.com/general74/benz.htm
Click to expand...
Dude looked up the seasoil. Disappointed it's not I'm my southern California area. But thanks for all the info. I guess the only thing, unless I missed it, I wanted to know is yeast used to digest their product in water to get their nutrients?
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
i don't see a huge result yet, but it has only been 5 days, and this plant has about another 2 weeks left, so we'll see what happens before the end.
i tried to get as close to the camera angles i used last time as i could
View attachment 3811549 View attachment 3811550 View attachment 3811551 View attachment 3811552 View attachment 3811553
kind of interesting to watch the fade progress, hard to gauge it when you're seeing it every day
Click to expand...
this experiment got derailed by reality, too much to do and not enough time to do it. i didn't get to start it when i wanted to and didn't have a control to compare it to. when it slows down in january i'll try it again under better conditions with more meticulous record keeping
 
pinner420

pinner420

Well-Known Member
L-aminos seems pretty clean however not mixing right getting a film in ebb and rdwc. perhaps not correct order gonna try after si and micro...
 
Redoctober

Redoctober

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
this experiment got derailed by reality, too much to do and not enough time to do it. i didn't get to start it when i wanted to and didn't have a control to compare it to. when it slows down in january i'll try it again under better conditions with more meticulous record keeping
Click to expand...
Did you notice any effect at all?
Negative, positive or neutral (like a morphological change)?

I'm about to foliar feed tria 1 week into flower but am having a bitch of a time weighing out .2g.
I'm basically just estimating using the tiny spoon that came with the sachet
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
i only used the bap one time, and didn't really seem to notice much of a difference, but it was past the optimal time to do it by a good two weeks. when the tourist season slows down here in january i plan to grow two of the same plant from seed and use one as a control, i'll use tria and brass on both, but bap on one only , at the right time, and document the results.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top