Reverse Engineering everyone's nutrients

tria can be used up to the 3rd week of flower, increases the number of and size of sites. i only use brass once, maybe twice, and always in veg, the only pics of a plant i've seen where someone was using it in flower it made a load of foxtails and sugar leaves.
not trying to sound like an elitist, but i've not had much problem with airy buds, so not sure what to tell you to use for that, if i come across anything in my research i'll tell you.
the only cytokinin product i've used is the vegamatrix hard and quick, not familiar with others. its supposed to promote strong branches and shorten internodal length, and i'd say it does so. like i said, i sprayed it on a young plant by accident and it grew into a little shrub with no length at all, took over a month to start growing normal again

i was just reading about chlormequat chloride, which says it will harden buds and increase yields, but it also says its used to counter the stretch from using gibberelic acid and to grow bonsai plants...so do some serious research before you try it

Roger A. Shrubber said:

i was just reading about chlormequat chloride, which says it will harden buds and increase yields, but it also says its used to counter the stretch from using gibberelic acid and to grow bonsai plants...so do some serious research before you try it

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I remember a few years back there was a product called "Gravity" that had a PGR called Paclobutrazol which hardened flowers. There was much controversy about either paclo itself being a carcinogen or other bad stuff in the product like arsenic and lead, so it was pulled from shelves. I don't know if paclobutrazol is naturally occurring or if it's man made. It's a gibberellin antagonist among other things which I understand is also a partial function of triacontanol.

As far as chlormequat chloride, it might be fun to try on a vegging plant to create a bonsai mother.

Another interesting diy reverse engineering adventure might be methyl jasmonate and salicylic acid, which I think are the active ingredients in snow storm ultra, used to increase resin production.

i was reading about methyl jasmonate, sounds very interesting, thinking about trying it. if i do i'll let you know what i think

salycilic acid is in aspirin, so i don't guess it should be bad for you

Stretchy strains are stretchy strains. Training them in veg to counteract this natural tendency has always been my best method.

actually i agree. too much growth isn't a problem in my opinion, but too little can be.
and honestly, i'm impatient, and if i can cut my veg time in half with a biweekly spritz of a couple of things that are found in insanely expensive additives, at 1/20th the price, why not?

Try it bro. Nitrozime and Fossil Fuel at one tsp each in a quart spray bottle of decent water. A few drops of Humboldt Sticky yucca wetting agent to make it absorb in the leaves. And really get em. All leaves...top and bottom. Every 5 to 7 days (more is not good - it works better if you space it out like this). And see what happens. Take an identical cut and give it everything else you normally do except this foliar rocket fuel spray. ...and see the difference. Especailly id you grow just a few with a long veg. Compare before the flip. It is night and day bro. The foliar sprayed one will be very green. Compact. Shorter.. And WAY bushier with nodes and tops exploding everywhere. ...waiting to turn in to giant buds.

I can make the lankiest and stretchiest of sativas and og based gear look like compact indicas with this spray...some scissors and some string and stakes. Given enough time. Them low yielder ass kicker og type strains...i can make them fukers give up the colas doing this. If you jist grow them regular style (yall know what iam saying)....they wont yield for shit.

if i'm reading the sds for those products correctly, thats just phosporic acid and humic acid, probably with some cytokinins from the seaweed. why don't you try
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Triacontanol-99-2-10g-Deluxe-Starter-Kit-works-gibberellic-acid-/221236980536?hash=item3382c06b38
at 1 ppm every 2 weeks, and the first two times you use it, add .5 grams per liter of
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brassinolide-0-2-25-Grams-steroid-/321544648468?hash=item4add8df714
if you wanna see some shit take off

Roger A. Shrubber said:

if i'm reading the sds for those products correctly, thats just phosporic acid and humic acid, probably with some cytokinins from the seaweed. why don't you try
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Triacontanol-99-2-10g-Deluxe-Starter-Kit-works-gibberellic-acid-/221236980536?hash=item3382c06b38
at 1 ppm every 2 weeks, and the first two times you use it, add .5 grams per liter of
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brassinolide-0-2-25-Grams-steroid-/321544648468?hash=item4add8df714
if you wanna see some shit take off

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Exactly what I was thinking from reading the labels. Reverse engineer -
Nitryzyme = Kelp - Ascophyllum nodosum (from their website "Nitrozyme Liquid Plant Stress Reliever is a concentrated extract made from the seaplant Ascophyllum nodosum")
Fossil Fuel = humic acid

Roger, have you read {this} thread about triacontanol?
Curious about your thoughts as someone who has used tria?
The conclusion seems to be that using poly-20 is adequate

https://www.uk420.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=343616
this is actually the first thing i read about it, that got me wanting to try it.
i read the link you posted, some good information.
i've used poly20 because thats whats came with it to dissolve it in. if its making the tria less effective, maybe thats a good thing, it does plenty with the poly20, if it does twice as much with some other surfactant, i could only fit one plant at a time in my tent.
i suppose financially it makes sense to use the most effective agent to dissolve it that won't hurt you or your plants, but a years worth cost me 10 bucks delivered to my door. i'll be decadent and splurge

Roger A. Shrubber said:

https://www.uk420.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=343616
this is actually the first thing i read about it, that got me wanting to try it.
i read the link you posted, some good information.
i've used poly20 because thats whats came with it to dissolve it in. if its making the tria less effective, maybe thats a good thing, it does plenty with the poly20, if it does twice as much with some other surfactant, i could only fit one plant at a time in my tent.
i suppose financially it makes sense to use the most effective agent to dissolve it that won't hurt you or your plants, but a years worth cost me 10 bucks delivered to my door. i'll be decadent and splurge

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My head is getting confused because it's so late and I think that threads are starting to blend together in my mind! I can't remember if you said you use it at 1ppm?
I'm about to get mine in a day or two. I know you first mix the powdered concentrate with the poly-20 in a test tube and heat it, but then how much of the resulting solution do you mix into what volume of water to get the desired conc for foliar?

Thanks for the link btw, I'm going to read it on the morrow

its in the thread i linked. .2 grams of tria dissolved in poly20 then put that in a liter of water. add 5 ml of that to a liter and its 1 ppm.
if you get the tria kit i linked, don't use the test tube, the mix cools as you pour it out and you lose a good bit of it on the side of the testube. i have a chunky heavy shotglass i use now. you can do it all over a stove eye or even a good sized candle. heat the tria and poly till it turns clear, add about the same amount of water and it will go cloudy again, heat it again till it goes clear, then add that to your liter of water.
its not supposed to last very well once mixed, so i get rid of what i don't use. for a while i sprayed it on my neighbors grass at night because it was funny listening to him bitch about having to mow twice a week, now i pour it on the cement driveway and let it evaporate, not sure thats the best way, but it seems better than flushing it into the local water system

Roger A. Shrubber said:

its in the thread i linked. .2 grams of tria dissolved in poly20 then put that in a liter of water. add 5 ml of that to a liter and its 1 ppm.
if you get the tria kit i linked, don't use the test tube, the mix cools as you pour it out and you lose a good bit of it on the side of the testube. i have a chunky heavy shotglass i use now. you can do it all over a stove eye or even a good sized candle. heat the tria and poly till it turns clear, add about the same amount of water and it will go cloudy again, heat it again till it goes clear, then add that to your liter of water.
its not supposed to last very well once mixed, so i get rid of what i don't use. for a while i sprayed it on my neighbors grass at night because it was funny listening to him bitch about having to mow twice a week, now i pour it on the cement driveway and let it evaporate, not sure thats the best way, but it seems better than flushing it into the local water system

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Hahaha! Your neighbor must think he has the most fertile soil in the neighborhood...but just on his property!

I didn't buy the kit with the test tube for the exact reason you described; it looked like a pain in the video I watched, and I figured I'd use a shot glass or something.
Seems like the 10g I bought will last years, if I can measure .1 at a time, I could add that to 500mL of water, then add 5mL to 1 more liter and it'd go even further.
It's inexpensive though, so going to such lengths is probably unnecessary, I just hate to waste. I'll probably try some of the excess on my Christmas cactus.

How often do you treat vegging plants? And then in flower do you only treat once during week 1?

i've been using it biweekly, thinking about trying it weekly, just to see if it makes a difference, it seems like theres no real problem with using too much, just wastes tria. i use it up to the second week of flower, then quit. i tried it up to week 4 but it just made a ton of sugar leaves, week 2 seems like the time to quit.
i just ordered a bottle of 6Bap, i was avoiding it because it sounded like a real pain in the ass to mix, you have to use lye and i don't like the idea of spraying my plants with lye. i emailed the seller, they said this dissolves in alcohol, whatever its bonded with isn't caustic, so i'll try it.
at 2k ppm its supposed to be like topping a plant without topping it, makes it grow a lot of side branches. applied at 300 ppm at the end of week 4 of flower, its supposed to significantly increase yields. we'll see

Roger A. Shrubber said:

i've been using it biweekly, thinking about trying it weekly, just to see if it makes a difference, it seems like theres no real problem with using too much, just wastes tria. i use it up to the second week of flower, then quit. i tried it up to week 4 but it just made a ton of sugar leaves, week 2 seems like the time to quit.
i just ordered a bottle of 6Bap, i was avoiding it because it sounded like a real pain in the ass to mix, you have to use lye and i don't like the idea of spraying my plants with lye. i emailed the seller, they said this dissolves in alcohol, whatever its bonded with isn't caustic, so i'll try it.
at 2k ppm its supposed to be like topping a plant without topping it, makes it grow a lot of side branches. applied at 300 ppm at the end of week 4 of flower, its supposed to significantly increase yields. we'll see

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Very interested to know how it turns out....SCIENCE!!!!!

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=281272
another thread with good info

I read the first 10 pages or so of this thread then bits and pieces as I went along so thank you very much MisterBlah and I owe you a million likes!

The very first time I ventured into using hydroponic nutes was about 1982. I bought a 1000W Mh ballast and bulb and nutes from Western Water Farms in downtown Vancouver, BC.

The nutes came in a bunch of bags of the raw salts you've all been discussing these many pages. I got a badly photocopied page of recipes for various types of plants but the sales guy said to use the one for tomatoes. (nudge nudge, wink wink)

Didn't work out too bad as the buds I got I had eager buyers for and even dealers I knew wanted to swap even-steven for the street schwag going around at the time. Nothing I'd brag about these days tho.

I have a diploma in chemistry so it's not like it's a big deal so suss most of this out and get back into tailoring my nutes to meet the demands of the plants as I've got pretty good at that since producing my first buds in '78 using dirt, sheep shit and sand from my father-in-law's farm in central Alberta to grow bag seed like Thai Stick, Jamaican Red Hair and Maui Waui. Totally junk by today's standards but a big hit with my buddies in Calgary at the time.

I've since found it so much easier to subscribe to the KISS method of growing and stick to AN pH Perfect nutes for DWC and my soilless growing efforts. Haters of AN need not reply!

Like MrBlah has stated in this thread his reverse engineering only covers the base salts part of the nutrients and can't even begin to cover all the permutations of added amino acids and all the other subtle additives of quality nutes. These are the little things that raise adequate nutrition into better nutrition for your plants.

Who wants to know how to replicate GH nutes. They've always been the lowest common denominator of the hydro nute class. Cheaper because they always used the cheapest sources for their salts, Chinese in many cases and loaded with heavy metals. Cheaper because they had lousy quality control and each batch had different levels of the advertised nutrient salts. Cheaper now because Scotts Miracle-Gro/Monsanto has bought them out along with Botanicaire, Gavita and who knows what else and coming soon to a WalMart near you if that isn't enough to tell the story. You can bet those guys find even cheaper and more contaminated sources for their base materials now to support the corporate agenda of higher profits by any means is great for the bottom line and makes shareholders happier.

Along with fighting against the tyranny of pot prohibition we should all be fighting against the corporate takeover of our cannabis culture by not buying from the corporations that are trying to shut us down and kill us with their toxic products!

You guys are doing that by reverse engineering those bastards products and Jah bless you for your efforts!

i didn't realize i was a hero, i'm just a cheap bastard.

Roger A. Shrubber said:

i didn't realize i was a hero, i'm just a cheap bastard.

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Right? Same here.

I'm not buying the 'subtle additives' thing about AN or any other water bottled nutrient line. I don't WANT PGRs in my nutes, thanks! And I'm a big fan of knowing exactly what I'm feeding my plants that are going into my face.

Old med user should use some of that chemistry knowledge to divine what is and is not in the major brands. I bet he'll find the same that @MisterBlah and many of the rest of us did; that the mystery of the bottles is there just to separate the uneducated from their money.