Reverse Engineering everyone's nutrients

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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Check out this PDF advanced nutrients released last year. (I don't think they have it up anymore).

It says what's in all of their products. (what a shocker, it's the same as what everyone else uses and most of their products have overlapping ingredients)

Btw, AN 3 part is a direct copy of GH flora 3 part.
 

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MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
Check out this PDF advanced nutrients released last year. (I don't think they have it up anymore).

It says what's in all of their products. (what a shocker, it's the same as what everyone else uses and most of their products have overlapping ingredients)

Btw, AN 3 part is a direct copy of GH flora 3 part.
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I appreciate this.
 
Redoctober

Redoctober

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
Check out this PDF advanced nutrients released last year. (I don't think they have it up anymore).

It says what's in all of their products. (what a shocker, it's the same as what everyone else uses and most of their products have overlapping ingredients)

Btw, AN 3 part is a direct copy of GH flora 3 part.
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Wow! Did they release that intentionally? I guess it's not the full picture because they don't say the amounts or ratios but still...in such a competitive industry I'm surprised they would do that. Even more surprising considering they have the same formula as other brands but charge significantly more for their line.

Good find church!
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
Redoctober said:
Wow! Did they release that intentionally? I guess it's not the full picture because they don't say the amounts or ratios but still...in such a competitive industry I'm surprised they would do that. Even more surprising considering they have the same formula as other brands but charge significantly more for their line.

Good find church!
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Well, the formulas are about to be public. :fire:
 
Redoctober

Redoctober

Well-Known Member
MisterBlah said:
Well, the formulas are about to be public. :fire:
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Exactly! Honestly I doubt it would dent their sales anyway. It would be such a small percentage of their customer base that's resourceful and motivated enough to go on forums and read threads like this one, then make their own nutes.
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
Redoctober said:
Exactly! Honestly I doubt it would dent their sales anyway. It would be such a small percentage of their customer base that's resourceful and motivated enough to go on forums and read threads like this one, then make their own nutes.
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Well, I had someone try and discredit me on another forum for doing this sort of thing, so I'm sure it will still piss them off.
 
Redoctober

Redoctober

Well-Known Member
MisterBlah said:
Well, I had someone try and discredit me on another forum for doing this sort of thing, so I'm sure it will still piss them off.
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Oh I'm sure they won't be happy about having the recipe to their secret sauce published. But at the end of the day, they are way overpriced...most of these nutrient companies are. It's almost like they had it coming. Not that they are all bad companies run by bad people; I get it that they are just trying to make money like anyone else, but sometimes there need to be a balance. It reminds me a little bit of when the record companies got way too greedy and were charging $25 for a CD that cost a penny to press, and were paying the artists 1% and pocketing the rest. Then Napster came along and put most of them out of business. I definitely don't see that happening in the fertilizer business, but it's nice to know that there is finally an affordable way to make quality nutrients without being dependent on the overpriced alternative. Thanks to you and others for making this a reality!

Whoever was trying to discredit you probably makes money from AN or is in the nutrient business. I'm always leery of people's motives when they lash out for no apparent reason.
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
Okay, did some more digging, so the information on that pdf is just the list of ingredients found on the labels. And even then, some are mildy inaccurate. Which is certainly useful, but I may still need to get lab analysis done of a lot of them.
 
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C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Yeah, the pdf was something AN was advertising for a while. They had mad scientist icons next to the link, and text like "hey, wanna know a secret?"

I think nutrient companies put this type of stuff out in a way that makes DIY nutrient users look like crazies. I've felt like they've been sending fake DIY nutrient users to purposefully make mistakes and make it all look hard to scare readers away from listening to real DIY nute users in the future.. One guy claiming his recipe is amazing when it's actually terrible is all it takes to discredit the whole subject for years. (Think fatman with 10ppm zinc)
 
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C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Either way, it's moot point whether those ingredient lists are complete or not. It has the most important ones on there. Calcium nitrate, potassium nitrate, monopotassium phosphate, etc. The rest are usually distractions purposefully put there to snag people trying to reverse engineer their products. This is why I wondered if there's really a point to try to reverse engineer all these overlapping products rather than just saying "f it" and going forward instead of backward.

Btw, you've gotta love their bloom booster... It's just monopotassium phosphate? Who knew?? Do you really need to reverse engineer this? It sounds asshat backwards when people don't even know how to use their raw materials without a brand name being attached.
 
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MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
Either way, it's moot point whether those ingredient lists are complete or not. It has the most important ones on there. Calcium nitrate, potassium nitrate, monopotassium phosphate, etc. The rest are usually distractions purposefully put there to snag people trying to reverse engineer their products. This is why I wondered if there's really a point to try to reverse engineer all these overlapping products rather than just saying "f it" and going forward instead of backward.
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When it comes to fertilizer chemistry, a phosphate is a phosphate is a phosphate, potassium is potassium is potassium. It doesn't matter what it's attached to. They "break apart" in solution as ions. That's the most important thing to know. So, when ever I reverse engineer something, it doesn't matter if I use the same ingredients as a salt. As long I have the right amount of nitrates, ammonia, phosphate, potassium, calcium, magnesium, etc.
 
C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
MisterBlah said:
When it comes to fertilizer chemistry, a phosphate is a phosphate is a phosphate, potassium is potassium is potassium. It doesn't matter what it's attached to. They "break apart" in solution as ions. That's the most important thing to know. So, when ever I reverse engineer something, it doesn't matter if I use the same ingredients as a salt. As long I have the right amount of nitrates, ammonia, phosphate, potassium, calcium, magnesium, etc.
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Right, but to get the ppm of each element you're looking for, it usually implies using certain base salts, or you'd have a problem making those ratios. The alternative to using calcium nitrate for the majority of your N, for example, would be to use a lot of expensive nitric acid. (can't get that nitrate through potassium nitrate unless you really wanted that much potassium) This basically implies that certain base salts are preferable to others for certain recipes.

You have options whether to use magnesium nitrate or magnesium sulfate, but magnesium nitrate is a lot more expensive... etc. If you use Magnesium nitrate, chances are you'll need to replace some potassium nitrate with potassium sulfate to end up at the same recipe. It's like a more expensive version of the same thing.
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
Right, but to get the ppm of each element you're looking for, it usually implies using certain base salts, or you'd have a problem making those ratios. The alternative to using calcium nitrate for the majority of your N, for example, would be to use a lot of expensive nitric acid. (can't get that nitrate through potassium nitrate unless you really wanted that much potassium) This basically implies that certain base salts are preferable to others for certain recipes.

You have options whether to use magnesium nitrate or magnesium sulfate, but magnesium nitrate is a lot more expensive... etc. If you use Magnesium nitrate, chances are you'll need to replace some potassium nitrate with potassium sulfate to end up at the same recipe. It's like a more expensive version of the same thing.
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It's basically a moot point. While what you said is true, it's not important in the grand scheme of things. Yes, certain salts are preferable to others. This is because when they actually used just calcium nitrate and potassium nitrate, obviously, that's all I'm going to use as well. But when they use the following, like in Jungle Juice Grow:

Ammonium Nitrate,
Magnesium Nitrate,
Potassium Nitrate,
Magnesium Phosphate,
Potassium Phosphate,
Potassium Carbonate,
Potassium Sulfate,
Magnesium Carbonate,
Magnesium Sulfate

It's just silly. This is the point where things are added in small concentrations just to obfuscate what's really there, or it just really isn't important to make use of all of them. I could dump 2-4 of those and still end up with the same results.

Additionally, where did you learn that mag nitrate is expensive? I pay similar amounts for calcium and magnesium nitrates. It's potassium nitrate that is the most expensive of the nitrate fertilizers.
 
C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
MisterBlah said:
It's basically a moot point. While what you said is true, it's not important in the grand scheme of things. Yes, certain salts are preferable to others. This is because when they actually used just calcium nitrate and potassium nitrate, obviously, that's all I'm going to use as well. But when they use the following, like in Jungle Juice Grow:

Ammonium Nitrate,
Magnesium Nitrate,
Potassium Nitrate,
Magnesium Phosphate,
Potassium Phosphate,
Potassium Carbonate,
Potassium Sulfate,
Magnesium Carbonate,
Magnesium Sulfate

It's just silly. This is the point where things are added in small concentrations just to obfuscate what's really there, or it just really isn't important to make use of all of them. I could dump 2-4 of those and still end up with the same results.

Additionally, where did you learn that mag nitrate is expensive? I pay similar amounts for calcium and magnesium nitrates. It's potassium nitrate that is the most expensive of the nitrate fertilizers.
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I have problems even finding magnesium nitrate that's not in pill bottles. I'm seeing 100g for about 30 dollars. By contrast, I'm seeing 2.86 dollars for a 1810g bag of magnesium nitrate from walmart. Can you tell me where you get your magnesium nitrate?
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
I have problems even finding magnesium nitrate that's not in pill bottles. I'm seeing 100g for about 30 dollars. By contrast, I'm seeing 2.86 dollars for a 1810g bag of magnesium nitrate from walmart. Can you tell me where you get your magnesium nitrate?
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A local fertilizer supplier? Or elsewhere on the Internet? Paying for shipping is a waste of money, really, but you can get 50 lbs from customhydronutrients.com for $35.

Are you confusing magnesium CITRATE with magnesium NITRATE?
 
outlier

outlier

Well-Known Member
MisterBlah said:
Well, I had some Muppet try and discredit me on another forum for doing this sort of thing, so I'm sure it will still piss them off.
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Edited for clarity :bigjoint:

Keep it up mate. I much learn from you.

If any Aussies are looking for suppliers: https://www.landmark.com.au/fertiliser/products-177.html

Went into my local store recently and prices sound similar to what Mister is paying (converted to AUD). They'll even sell smaller quantities or premix blends for you - i.e. a 25kg/50lbs bag of your "grow" formula.

That page lists their suppliers, so you could just go direct if they're nearby.
 
Redoctober

Redoctober

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
I have problems even finding magnesium nitrate that's not in pill bottles. I'm seeing 100g for about 30 dollars. By contrast, I'm seeing 2.86 dollars for a 1810g bag of magnesium nitrate from walmart. Can you tell me where you get your magnesium nitrate?
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Magnesium Nitrate 17.5 lbs for $22 -
https://customhydronutrients.com/magnesium-nitrate-2-gallon-bucket-175-pounds-p-39.html?cPath=1_44_64&zenid=c5ab37f5fc93f7b3001699f6b4389c49

Calcium Nitrate 20 lbs for $24 -
https://customhydronutrients.com/calcium-nitrate-greenhouse-grade-20-pound-pail-p-36.html?cPath=1_44_62_373&zenid=c5ab37f5fc93f7b3001699f6b4389c49

They have smaller quantities if you need them, but these are cheap salts. Basically $1 per lb
 
T

Tgm123

Member
MisterBlah, if you have them, would you post recipes for House and Gardens Coco A&B, bud XL, shooting powder, top booster, top shooter, and Roots Excelerator? Thank you in anticipation of your response.
 
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