Refined vs Unrefined.. Another one of those organic threads..

[Dr. Who]

There is a problem that no one has listed that ALL synthetics share and this is true for hydro just as much as soil synthetic grows.

SUSTAINABILITY!

The long term availability of Phosphorus to be mined for plant use.
It's running out!
Most available Phosphate rock is in parts of the world that are politically unstable or under military dispute. What happens if that area goes unfriendly to the U.S.?

In as little as 30 years, the quality useable phosphate rock can run out. Thus, your synthetic hydroponic grow will be non-viable.
"But another conventional technical fix for a resource in short supply — finding a substitute — is not available. Presently, there simply are no substitutes for phosphorus."

READ A FEW OF THESE!
https://www.google.com/search?q=availability of mined phosphorus&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

Next. You list animal by products as used in Organic's
Other then worm castings (That I gather from my OWN worm farm like the "Rev" does) and crab meal =MADE FROM crab SHELLS and NOT crab "meat". I do use some Bat and Sea bird guano. BUT ,, those do NOT contain animal by products of any kind in their make-up (no e-coli, etc.). I use no land walking animal by products or "poo's".

"Crab Meal is a great source of Phosphorus. In addition Crab Meal contains crab shells which are high in chitin. Chitin encourages the growth of chitin-eating bacteria in soil and is a great source of food for beneficial fungi. Chitin-eating bacteria break down the eggs of detrimental soil nematodes and fungi. It packs slow release N and P usually around 4-3-0 and that makes it great for growing".
You bring up that natural organic methods have TRACE amounts of harmful contaminates that are potentially bad for human consumption......I find that as an extremely narrow statement. Consider this. We have as humans been eating what has been grown from the ground from our beginning, right?
Now answer me this. Why is it that when natural organic methods of growing our foods gave way to your "purely refined" synthetic nutrition. We began to suffer with new and confusing health issues at alarmingly increasing rates? The PERFECT example are CANCERS!!!!!

How about you take note of this point.
"As the quality of phosphate rock reserves declines, more energy is necessary to mine and process it. The processing of lower grade phosphate rock also produces more heavy metals such as cadmium and uranium, which are toxic to soil and humans; more energy must be expended to remove them as well. Moreover, increasingly expensive fossil fuels are needed to transport approximately 30 million tons of phosphate rock and fertilizers around the world annually."

Your refined synthetic's are directly ready for plant use. But at what real cost to humanity?
Organic nutrition needs to be broken down by the living bio's in the soil, thus creating a "soil food web" of symbiosis.

It should be pointed out, that when science makes things better/faster. Bad things tend to be found down the road that no one even considered at the start. The "price" of mans science!

Nature has done it from the beginning, and while plants may have come and gone or evolved. Those plants STILL grow just as they did age's ago.

Nature has the ultimate answer, we just need to wrap our heads around that.

The bottom line is that all you find wrong with "organic" is such a "non issue". You tend to forget the big picture.
Modern, Synthetic fertilization is UNSUSTAINABLE for the long term future!
With that in mind. The future of the human race, in the numbers present on the earth today,,,,,,,IS unsustainable in the NEAR future.

That is a cold hard fact that NO ONE seems to want to face or discuss anywhere other then in academia !!!

The idea of extended use of synthetic nutrition is a JOKE!

Hydroponics SOLVES NO PROBLEM! It is simply an alternative method to grow by......Not to long from now,,,,it may not be!

You opened a door that I feel passionate about. Your research is FAR from complete on the subject of organics vs. synthetics (The real bottom line of your post) as you only focused on plant reactions with minimal attention on the "whole" picture.

One must think outside the box also.

Anyone who answers my post with any form of "I'm here now and who cares about the future as I won't be here" is an ASS HAT of the grandest magnitude!

 

[az2000]

Why is it that when natural organic methods of growing our foods gave way to your "purely refined" synthetic nutrition. We began to suffer with new and confusing health issues at alarmingly increasing rates? The PERFECT example are CANCERS!!!!!

Didn't that also coincide with the industrial revolution, invention of the automobile, air/water pollution and atomic weapons (releasing radioactive material into the environment)?

I agree with you about the bigger picture concerning sustainability, pollution of manufacturing, etc. But, if the world went back to organic growing overnight I think more people would die from starvation (unable to afford the expense attached to organic growing).

 

[AlphaPhase]

I have some thoughts I'll respond with later. But organic nutes are brought in From foreign countries as well and use gas to arrive here, if not more. Foreign guano, catch my drift? What happens when the crab population dies off and disrupts the whole ocean ecosystem? I'll be bahk, you have made some good points.

 

[AlphaPhase]

OK, per the cancer theory. Archaeologist have found cancer on a 3200 year old skeleton. It was the kind of cancer that spreads throughout the body. Now as we know, 3200 years ago there was no commercial farming as we see today with the use of nasty pesticides. I'm assuming all growing down in that time period was strictly natural and organic methods of farming. Further more, since evolution, dinosaurs, humans and even PLANTS can get some form of cancer. In 400 bc, a medicine man named hippocrates was the first person to distinguish the difference between benign and malignant cancers. Cancer is not a new thing. As for depletion of resources, that is happening with everything. Oil. Water. Soil erosion. Whales. Crabs (the reason you can only fish for King Crabs in a short period of time each year). The list goes on. This is due to population. Our world is not built to sustain the amount of people we have on earth and as time goes on, the population will keep increasing and resources will decline. Facts.

 

[AlphaPhase]

As for the depletion of phosphorous, it's not only for growing hydroponics, it's actually used in WAY more quantities for other stuff. " Red phosphorus is fairly stable and is used to manufacture safety machines, pyrotechnics, pesticides, incendiary shells, smoke bombs, tracer bullets and more." even matches for fire, ect... Which none of these products are uses in hydroponics, especially pesticides! I NEVER use pesticides in hydroponics because there are simply NO bugs.

If you are not using any animal by products, then you are not growing organic, that would be veganic.

The statement about synthetic fertilizers being worse than the trace amount of bad stuff in organic, well that statement is simply false. Like mentioned above, ALL of the impurities are refined out leaving a pure and clean fertilizer which in turn is healthier than organic. There's no way to dispute that one, as organic would cause more cancer than synthetic nutes because of the impurities, OR each would be the same level IF it's actually the pure N-P-K that actually causes harmful problems, which if that is the case we are all screwed.

 

[AlphaPhase]

And last but not least, sustainability is what I'd like to achieve and I think that would be possible with aquaponics. There's still a lot more to read, but this goes way deeper than most people could imagine, just like you said, it's about the big picture.. and that is why I am here and want to discuss everything there is to be discussed. You have some valid points and you're right, I do have a lot more to research. But cancers from salt based nutrients does not need to be looked into any further because that's not true.. Although the GMO stuff... that's another story and that in my opinion is messing with nature and not a good idea.

 

[AlphaPhase]

Oh, and I want to make this a valid point to touch base on. The life span of humans has nearly doubled from the times of strictly organic farming. Average life span of humans is 82 years old. During the Renaissance the average life expectancy was 35 years old. Over the times between then and now, with more advanced medicine ect. the life span of humans has more than doubled. I am by no means saying that all of these toxins we put into the earth are making us live longer, but I'm just stating facts that while technology improves, so does our life expectancy.

 

[Dr. Who]

If you are not using any animal by products, then you are not growing organic, that would be veganic.

The statement about synthetic fertilizers being worse than the trace amount of bad stuff in organic, well that statement is simply false. Like mentioned above, ALL of the impurities are refined out leaving a pure and clean fertilizer which in turn is healthier than organic. There's no way to dispute that one, as organic would cause more cancer than synthetic nutes because of the impurities, OR each would be the same level IF it's actually the pure N-P-K that actually causes harmful problems, which if that is the case we are all screwed.

I do use non meat based animal by products. I did misspeak myself when I said I use sea bird guano's. I did some years back, but have stopped. The fish they consume contains mercury and that's my reason for the stopping.

I did not "say" synthetic ferts were "worse then" anything other then their unsustainable.

And last but not least, sustainability is what I'd like to achieve and I think that would be possible with aquaponics. There's still a lot more to read, but this goes way deeper than most people could imagine, just like you said, it's about the big picture.. and that is why I am here and want to discuss everything there is to be discussed. You have some valid points and you're right, I do have a lot more to research. But cancers from salt based nutrients does not need to be looked into any further because that's not true.. Although the GMO stuff... that's another story and that in my opinion is messing with nature and not a good idea.

Aquaponics IS a form of organics! Maybe the ultimate form?

Cancers, among other afflictions are STILL being studied in correlation to fertilizer use. Maybe cancer was not my best choice here. But salt/hydrocarbon synthesized nutrient use is still a major suspect to the growth in many food related health issues.
A simple home experiment. This was done by Mother Earth News and featured in an issue a few years back.
Lets take an ear of corn grown with synthetic nutrition and one grow organically. Prepare them for storage the same way and set them in your fridge.
Which one goes bad first?
Why?
What did the organic ear get that the synthetic one didn't? Hmmm.

Oh, and I want to make this a valid point to touch base on. The life span of humans has nearly doubled from the times of strictly organic farming. Average life span of humans is 82 years old. During the Renaissance the average life expectancy was 35 years old. Over the times between then and now, with more advanced medicine ect. the life span of humans has more than doubled. I am by no means saying that all of these toxins we put into the earth are making us live longer, but I'm just stating facts that while technology improves, so does our life expectancy.

This is ONLY true due to medical science!

We are debating with opinion. We each have our own, that's normal.

I do not intend to say what you choose is WRONG.
Only to show you some other ideas and points of contention.

I do not like 100% synthetic growing. About 15% of what I do is a combination,,,,,,I enjoy experimentation too.

 

[Dr. Who]

Didn't that also coincide with the industrial revolution, invention of the automobile, air/water pollution and atomic weapons (releasing radioactive material into the environment)?

I agree with you about the bigger picture concerning sustainability, pollution of manufacturing, etc. But, if the world went back to organic growing overnight I think more people would die from starvation (unable to afford the expense attached to organic growing).

They did contribute just as everything else has to the expansion of cancers world wide.
I find it very interesting that cultures that have historically not been effected by wide spread cancers are now having the problem as their eating habits begin to coincide to "ours".

 

[Dr. Who]

There was something in the back of my mind. Screaming at me.
When I sat down to dinner it came to me.

If synthetic nutrients are "pure" as you say.

Why then in print ads and on the bottles,,,,,,,
does it state that for a COMPLETE list of metal content. Log on to the makers web site for details? (or some such).

So you see, synthetic's are not "pure" as you assume!

There are FAR more things contained in that bottle of synthetic "fertilizer" then you think!
Many things are not listed on the label because the amounts are "trace".

Just try and pronounce some of them!

Look it up for yourself.

 

[AlphaPhase]

I think added preservatives and pesticides play a huge role, because synthetic commercial farming is done in dirt, which the dirt creates the need for pesticides. I am 100% against synthetic farming in dirt. That's what hydroponics is for, if growing in dirt definitely grow organic.. Just my opinion... Because dirt was not made for chemical nutrients and it defeats the whole purpose of growing in dirt when you use chemicals. Here's a good article about foods that were tested. It touches base on how some foods are better grown organically while many are not worth the cost because synthetic was better. But, they do not compare hydroponically grown, which imo would be a better test, as stated above I do not like the fact of growing in soil and using synthetic nutes... Though I have grown many mother plants in miracle grow, I have never flowered them. I just grow them in mg for clones. I agree that it seems cancer has been more wide spread recently, but the reason I'm not sure of. Many people do not take care of thier body and in return can make you sick. I honestly blame big pharmacy for the wide spread cancers. If you think about it, the more medicine advances, the more people get sick. It could be a key factor, taking a pill to cure one thing and having it cause another problem. As seen in many medicine class action court cases about a certain medicine killing people. There's a lot to consider and it's nearly impossible to pin point the casue of many widespread problems because I believe that it's a combination of things.

"We decided to find out. We sent two samples of: lettuce, broccoli, chicken and milk to Sani Pure Labs in Saddle River, NJ to be analyzed. The testers did not know which ones were organic and which were conventional. What we found was surprising.

Ron Schnitzer of Sani Pure Labs revealed, “There was a really significant difference between the organic produce and the conventional produce.” As it turned out, the organic broccoli and lettuce had much higher levels of bacteria than the conventional. It’s not harmful bacteria, but it is bacteria that will spoil your produce much quicker. And what that means to the shopper who is spending more for organic, is the product will have a much shorter shelf life.

Well maybe we can live with lettuce that turns brown faster, but what about poultry? When I smelled the conventional chicken at the lab a week later, it had an odor. When I smelled the organic chicken the stench was almost unbearable. “A week later even held at zero degrees it’s putrid whereas its counterpart held identically, still is satisfactory” says Schnitzer.

Grossed out yet? We'll give you a break. The milk although often twice the price of conventional was identical. Schnitzer finds, “Microbiologically we couldn’t tell the difference between organic milk and conventional milk.”

We wondered why the organic almost always had a shorter shelf life. When you think of organic you think "straight from the farm." Anderson explains, "The distribution systems for organic products just aren’t as well developed as they are for conventional agriculture products.” So what that means is it takes longer to get to the market than the well-oiled conventional system. Anderson advises shopping at farmer’s markets to get the freshest organic produce possible. If you do buy organic from the supermarket make sure you check the produce for brown spots or spoilage and use the product as soon as you can. The same goes for poultry.

But many people shop to promote a better environment for our crops as well as for our livestock. One thing that cannot be tested is the way animals have been treated while used for producing a product.

Is it worth the price? That’s for you to decide.

What you saw on "Today"
Here's more about some of the foods discussed on the show:

Other organic foods worth considering:
Milk, beef, poultry
Reduce the risk of exposure to the agent believed to cause mad cow disease and minimize exposure to other potential toxins in non-organic feed. These foods containno hormones, and antibiotics, which have been linked to increased antibacterial resistance in humans. They often cost 100 percent more than conventional products.

No need to go organic with these foods:
Fruit
Bananas, kiwi, mangos, papaya, pineapples Vegetables
Asparagus, avocado, broccoli, cauliflower, corn, onions, peas
These products generally do not contain pesticide residue.Seafood
Wild or farmed fish can be labeled organic, despite the presence of contaminants such as mercury and PCBs. There are no USDA organic certification standards for seafood. Producers are allowed to make their own organic claims.Cosmetics
Having "organic" or "natural" in its name doesn't necessarily mean it's safer. Only 11 percent of ingredients found in personal-care products, organic or not, have ever been screened for safety.

Managing the high cost of organic foods

Why does organic cost more?
Growing the food is more labor-intensive. And even though organic food is a growing industry, it doesn't have the economies of scale or government subsidies available to conventional growers."

 

[AlphaPhase]

I'll have to look into my nute line, I've converted from bottled nutes to powder form for the simplicity and I just didn't like buying a bottle of mostly water. I'll get back to you on what my nutes contain and I will check my old GH bottles and see what I can find. That's a good point!

 

[Dr. Who]

Ok, who paid for that testing?

And no, it is not more labor intensive! On our farm, we use FAR less hydrocarbons in the long run. We rotate animals to new fields. Cows to one, open penned chicken's go to the one the cows came from. The cows eat and poop (fertilize),,,,the chickens spread the cow manure about, looking for seeds to eat....(redistribution). Eggs are removed from pens daily. Manures from the barns are brought in to an area were the hogs turn it, so no skid steers for turning the manure so it "cooks". We have mobile slaughter people come in for the humain harvesting of the steers and hogs. We do the actual butchering ourselves on the steer,hogs and chickens (state and federal inspected facility). These are sold to health food stores and a few very high end dining establishments as far away a Chicago (We are 2 states away) and that food is on the table after they age it their way. We are now looking at a major food retailer who is VERY much after our products for their "organic" sections. Yes, we are federally certified as Organic.

I don't see organic as costing us more to produce at all. The market price reflects DEMAND! The public is screaming for it! The only real more hands on work is the butchering of livestock. And,, yes we do literally TONS of organic veggies that hit farm markets, health food stores and the bulk goes to a major food chain, home based just 21 miles away to their multi-state distribution center.

BTW, The "we" is a cooperative group of 3 large family farms and we are always leasing new land to expand. The problem is to get that land "organic" so we can actually use it for our needs. It take several years to be compliant (we will grow non food intended pumpkins and gourds, sometimes Indian corn, and the such in those fields till compliant).

We are teaching our next generation of farmers this style of farming through FFA and we have a waiting list for PAID interns from MSU and GVSU wanting to see how to work the system for themselves!

The future is at hand. It only took dedication and resolve to do it.

 

[AlphaPhase]

Ok, what I've found in the nutrients that I currently use as compared to foxfarm organic fertilizer, both contain metals. My synthetic contains less metals by far than the organic, I'll have to compare to more organic nutes. But right now I have this:

 

[AlphaPhase]

I'm not sure who paid for the testing, but it was done in a Lab. "Ron Schnitzer of Sani Pure Labs". And there was no bias to one or the other, I'm sure they were so stunned to learn that the non-organic was better in most cases because going into the test, like many people, assume it's better? I'm not sure. There are many tests that have been done with organic vs non-organic soil grown plants, and most of them state the same findings. What I'm really interested in is the hydroponic vs organic soil testing which I will find continue to study. Again, I am not rooting for one or the other, which ever way comes out on top is most likely the way I'll convert my garden. I have no intentions of claiming hydroponics is better without researching and finding the results I am looking for, but if organics can do it better, then by all means I will convert to all organics.

 

[Dr. Who]

I used to use FF BB organic.....I now brew my own tea's.

Why not organic hydro? I'm playing with that a bit. Taking time to dial it in right now in test grows.
I still prefer my soil. It just feels "right",,, you know?
Less metals. Ok, but their still there!

 

[AlphaPhase]

I agree 100% that organic is usually better when buying from a grocery store. I would most likely buy the commercially grown soil organic stuff rather than commercially grown non organic soil stuff. But then again, I'm not debating that organic is probably better IF grown in soil. I'm trying to figure out organic soil vs hydroponics.

 

[Dr. Who]

Hydro vs. soil

The dif is going to be speed and to a point yield. I can just about get the same yield from soil,,,,that took many years of experiments to get there!

 

[Dr. Who]

Check out "The Rev's TLO" soil growing. I run a variation on that. I like it better then Sub's SS style.
I got a soil recp from a guy on here cause it was an interesting version of both. Kinda "hot" but I like his mix idea's. With a cpl of tweaks it has promise.

After MANY years of growing, I have always enjoyed trying new things/idea's on old theme's. I revisit many thing's i've done before and adjust them and try again.

I think your doing the same in your own way. As your years growing get longer, you'll change your mind on many things, many times. you'll rethink old things you've tried and try adjusting them as you learn more too.

It's fun!

Enjoy my friend. I sure enjoyed this thread and what you've contributed and what I could share with you.

Keep growing. It never gets old doing what you love.

Doc

 

[AlphaPhase]

That's my next step actually, organic hydro! Can't wait to try it I've been researching bio buckets and it seems it would be the best growing method for organic hydro. And the aquaponics I'd love to try, but it seems like a huge start up cost and the laws are really strict with aquaponics because at a certain level is considered an eco-system and you're not allowed to leave the farm for any period of time (or something to that effect). I probably screwed up what I heard from a friend that is trying his hand at aquaponics, but I do know he said it was really strict farming.