Real world Hi-Pressure Aeroponics

Pounce, Atomizer might come across as abrasive at times but he knows of what he speaks.

Honestly, you seem to indirectly take shots at accumulator setups by saying "if that's all someone wants" or "some people prefer a race car", etc., but given the choice of my setup vs. what I understand your setup to be, I think I'd prefer mine - as Atomizer has said, it's all about control - sure, perhaps you can manipulate valves and do other things to control your misting times/durations, but I don't need to do that - I set my timer and I'm good.

Again, not trying to take shots at your setup at all, and I guess I'm armchairing because I've never run 1000PSI, but logically I can understand (some of) the shortcomings without needing to run it.

BTW, I run a 1 micron filter to try to keep clogging away.

When you refer to commercial applications using 1000PSI, those aren't getting sprayed on roots, but rather to mist/cool (either vegetables or humans), so larger droplets at the start/end of the cycle aren't as critical as they are when trying to keep root hairs.

I like the back and forth and the technical talk, so please keep it up.

Bob, are you having any extreme issue with clogging? I'm curious about the nutrient issues clogging the system. I really do wonder if given the same nutrients and same exact lines etc if 100psi and 1000psi would behave any different. I wonder if anything other than calcium is clogging your systems.

I really don't understand why you guys are seeing such a difference in 100psi and 1000psi from a control perspective. To me you guys seem defensive rather than easy going about somebody doing something different. I'd imagine we are using the same size misters generally. Higher pressure will give you better droplets. Since most commercial misting nozzles are rated for 1000psi it's pretty easy to pick what you need and know you are going to be getting what it is spec'd at.

Since Atomizer noted the Fogco nozzles we can use them as a sample. Check out their specs for the nozzles. They include data for droplet micon size.

http://www.fogco.com/nozzles.asp

Do you have some way of measuring the size of droplets you are generating at 100psi?

Do you guys mist/spray directly at the roots or are you trying to fill the chamber with turbulence and mist and get indirect coverage?

Bob Smith said:

Honestly, you seem to indirectly take shots at accumulator setups

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Not at all. If you read my other posts it's actually quite the opposite. Both low pressure with accumulator and high pressure have merits.

A 0.014" orifice nozzle has a higher flow than a 0.006" and it produces larger droplets. You have to use fewer nozzles to compensate for the higher flow to prevent oversaturation and fewer nozzles create mist coverage issues. You`ve exchanged one problem for 3 more that have a greater impact on system performance than the clogging issue.
I`ve tested using a fan inside a chamber, it increases the mist evaporation rate and has a drying effect on the roots. The biggest issue is the mist has almost no mass and the slightest airflow forces it out through any available exit point. Try it for yourself and see

Atomizer said:

A 0.014" orifice nozzle has a higher flow than a 0.006" and it produces larger droplets. You have to use fewer nozzles to compensate for the higher flow to prevent oversaturation and fewer nozzles create mist coverage issues. You`ve exchanged one problem for 3 more that have a greater impact on system performance than the clogging issue.

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I don't know what you are telling me. Yes, larger orifice larger droplet, BUT the orifice size also produces a different droplet size based on PSI. I simply said I use a variety of nozzles. What nozzles do you use?

I`ve tested using a fan inside a chamber, it increases the mist evaporation rate and has a drying effect on the roots. The biggest issue is the mist has almost no mass and the slightest airflow forces it out through any available exit point. Try it for yourself and see

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So how is your system configured? With the type of plants you guys grow you have roots that could be what looks like several feet long. How are you covering these? Is your root chamber the height you expect to get with your roots or are you only using aero for prop?

One way to get movement in the chamber is to mount a mister in a tube that is exposed on the back side. This creates a venturi and draws air with the force of the mist.

Your venturi idea defies physics, otherwise any nozzle inside a chamber would be able to set up its own mist circulation current by drawing air in from behind the nozzle. Mist doesn`t create any rearward pressure drop whether its mounted in a tube or not. Gravity is the only thing that helps spread the mist for free
The ideal configuration is one that delivers full mist coverage using no more than 0.0000099gal of liquid per gallon of chamber volume per misting cycle. The mist is in 30-80 micron droplet format. I have one method that acheives this with some difficulty (sub 0.5 second cycle timing) and another that meets the goals with ease, neither uses 1000psi.

Atomizer said:

Your venturi idea defies physics,

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Try it.

The ideal configuration is one that delivers full mist coverage using no more than 0.0000099gal of liquid per gallon of chamber volume per misting cycle. The mist is in 30-80 micron droplet format. I have one method that acheives this with some difficulty (sub 0.5 second cycle timing) and another that meets the goals with ease, neither uses 1000psi.

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You didn't really answer the question. Are you willing to just out and out share what you are using or are you protecting your configuration for some reason?

Can you answer what nozzles you use and what you are using for your pump or pressure?

Atomizer said:

The ideal configuration is one that delivers full mist coverage using no more than 0.0000099gal of liquid per gallon of chamber volume per misting cycle.

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Doing a little fuzzy math you are putting .0013 ounces of water per 231 cubic inches of chamber space per misting cycle. If you mist every 2 minutes that's about .94 ounces per 231 cubic inches per day.

How large is your chamber?

How much solution is not absorbed by the plants at various stages of growth? Is that something you have measured? I assume so since you are using so many decimal places.

Do you know how much solution you expect your plants to consume at various ages? You guys have some thirsty plants here so I'm curious about water needs and how you achieve these with large adult plants.

Pounce, you should probably take a look at the "My HP Aero Plug and Play Pods" thread - there's lotsa good info in there for you.

Treefarmer grows 1#+ plants and they were only drinking a couple of gallons a day each, if memory served - that's a main benefit of (properly done) HP aero - the roots are so efficient that they uptake nutrients and water sparingly.

Bob Smith said:

Pounce, you should probably take a look at the "My HP Aero Plug and Play Pods" thread - there's lotsa good info in there for you.

Treefarmer grows 1#+ plants and they were only drinking a couple of gallons a day each, if memory served - that's a main benefit of (properly done) HP aero - the roots are so efficient that they uptake nutrients and water sparingly.

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If they drink a couple of gallons a day and Atomizer is only giving under and ounce per gallon of chamber space per day I'm not seeing how this amount of solution is meeting the plants needs. Lets say you grow one plant in a 55 gallon barrel. That's under 55 ounces of solution being misted with a majority of that ending up at the bottom of the barrel.

See why this looks odd on paper?

Have a link to the post where this sort of thing is outlined?

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/254876-my-true-hp-aero-plug.html

Grab a snack, it's a long read

To throw a wrench into the calculations, one can mist much less during the night cycle.

pounce said:

If you want to stay around average line pressure I'd imagine an Aquatec 8800 plus stainless Shurflo accumulator would be close to ideal. That combo might run you $325 or so.

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is it relatively quiet? i'm not sure what kind of pump is used by my shallow well pump/tank, but it's not exactly quiet when it kicks on. It's not really loud either, but quiet is always good.

With pex tubing/fixtures, are there any special tools needed? pex pretty much uses compression fittings, right?

haole420 said:

is it relatively quiet? i'm not sure what kind of pump is used by my shallow well pump/tank, but it's not exactly quiet when it kicks on. It's not really loud either, but quiet is always good.

With pex tubing/fixtures, are there any special tools needed? pex pretty much uses compression fittings, right?

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My Shurflo (150PSI) certainly isn't quiet, but according to Atomizer, Aquatecs are quieter than Shurflos.

My pump/accumulator combo was $175.

The only "tool" to speak of would be a "tubing cutter" - cost $4, if memory serves (basically just a utlity blade, but worthwhile, IMO).

Other than that just your hands - yes, compression fittings are needed, but they're really the shit - not one leak running >100PSI for me.

Hi Guys. Lots of good information here. The too much/too little mist problem bothers me and I do not yet see a definitive answer. Maybe I just missed it. For a plant that can grow 4.5' tall and 2-2 1/2' diameter above with a root space of 2'X2'X18" how many 55 micron,0.6 gallons per hour misters do I need? How far down from the roots? And should I put the manafold directly under the plant or in a ring around the root zone facing in at an angle? I have a guess, but would like some informed input as this is my second Aero grow and the first needed NF support because of bad misters. Also, I saw a fan system to push fog in a fogponics setup. Could a low volume fan be useful in misted aero?

MM to grow a plant that size your pod needs to be 5 ft deep. Otherwise the root system will collect on the bottom of the pod and cause problems later in the grow


I am using 2 single .92gph mist heads inside a 18G pod. I use a dual head from Reptile Basics; each head is adjustable for aiming around the roots. You do not need a fan as the pressure sprays the nutes throughout the pod.

hth

PetFlora said:

MM to grow a plant that size your pod needs to be 5 ft deep. Otherwise the root system will collect on the bottom of the pod and cause problems later in the grow


I am using 2 single .92gph mist heads inside a 18G pod. I use a dual head from Reptile Basics; each head is adjustable for aiming around the roots. You do not need a fan as the pressure sprays the nutes throughout the pod.

hth

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As I explained in the thread you started, it doesn't appear as though your height "rules" for pods are very accurate if we go by TF's newest pod, which is 2' tall and designed to grow 5-6' trees.

If growing "proper" HP roots, they're light enough that they can grow up and out, unlike spaghetti roots which can only grow down because of their weight.

Some well placed screen to act as a trellis along the sides of your container can allow your roots to expand and fill a larger cubic volume without the necessity of a ridiculous container height.

Look at the old TF or Atomix or anyone else who's done it properly grows and you'll see the roots adapt to the pod they're in and continue to grow, assuming the pod has adequate cubic footage.

MM, good questions that no one but you can have the answer to - you're gonna need to run those misters and see what kind of coverage they give you; that being said, my guess would be four misters - check out the "Plug and Play Pod" thread, as TF's pods (in that thread) are fairly similar to what you're trying to do.

I guess the issue is can HPA and DWC happily coexist?

Let's use your example: You have a 2ft deep pod but you are growing a 5ft tree. "As above, so below". Inevitably, your root system will be ~ 5 ft long, using the super efficient HPA nutrient delivery, they likely be longer and bigger. The solution of adding a screen makes no sense here.

Screens are viable for a light overshoot in root development (maybe 3-5"), but not for an extra 3 ft of roots. It won't be long before you have a 3 ft root mass growing all over the screen. Long before that point your pod becomes more like DWC, certainly no longer True Aero. And in my humble opinion, creating a True Aero Pod (where the roots do not collect on a screen, or the bottom of the pod, is an important element to HPA

Your roots are gonna out-grow ANYTHING you put them in. 55 gallon drum, upright... It would only take about a month for the roots to reach the bottom. I'd like to see a flowering plant in one of your pods. If the roots haven't out-grown the pod, it's my belief that they were not grown to their potential.

You saw pics of my last grow. I used bag seed. Turned out they were mostly Sats, about 5 ft tall. The roots grew fast to 5 ft, but no longer. I did have to stack totes to accommodate them, otherwise I would have had a similar problem to what you will face if you go through with growing 5 ft trees in a 2 ft (or 3ft, or 4 ft, or...) deep pod.

for several days I have actually been thinking about how to slow the process of main tap root growing faster than we want. I have posted a pic (maybe not here) of the early root development of this current grow. They have considerably more roots growing out of the bottom than in my previous 2 start ups, which mostly had the long tap root.

I think the difference was my souped up bubble starter pod using twin 12" air stones in a storage container that is about the size of a large shoe box- tons of DO/nutrients filling the small air space probably allowed the plants to quickly develop multiple roots AND more lateral roots.

As you know I only use 1.5" PVC couplers, but I am thinking if I were growing taller plants to replace the PVC couplers with say 4-6-10" net pots. Once the plant roots exit the start cube, place it in the net pot surrounded with either a full net pot size S2G insert, or maybe break up some Lava rock and fill the remainder of the net pot.

This should create more of an environment for multiple root development to come out the sides as well as the bottom. I experienced this on my current grow using only S2G starter cubes in my PVC couplers.

Due to the deep cycle feed times, more lateral roots develop, which should slow down the length, as the mass of shorter roots will be getting all the nutrient the vegging plant needs via the deep cycle feed times of HPA

Because I replaced net pots with PVC couplers I haven't tried using 4-6" net pots with Lava rock, but it should work. That said, I think you will still need closer to 4ft deep pods for 5 ft trees.

hth

Petflora, I'm not sure where/how you've come to the conclusion that roots can only grow down - it's faulty.

Again, if they're proper light and fluffy HP roots, they can grow upwards, if need be.

A silk screen on the bottom of the container prevents roots from sitting in any water, so where you get "DWC" from is confusing to me.

If there was a 10' tall "pod", the roots would reach that in a few weeks if they're being grown to their potential - honestly, I think your theory is based on some flawed assumptions - I've grown 3' tall plants in a 5" deep pot, it's not that difficult (not HP aero, but still).

Again, I'm going off of visual evidence of proper HP roots - as far as I can tell, TF's and G-Love's grows are the only "proper" HP grows online, and their roots are 100X healthier looking than yours (or mine) and TF used screens to allow the roots to grow up, and G-Love grew 4 and 5 foot plants in with a 2' tall container.

You're using faulty "TAG" theories which have little basis in real life, as best I can tell - that and your "plants develop different roots at flowering" are two things that you seem to think that no one else seems to agree with, so if you could cite where you came across this info it'd be appreciated.