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Progressive Party **Official Thread**

Discussion in 'Politics' started by schuylaar, Nov 11, 2017.

  1.  
    st0wandgrow

    st0wandgrow Well-Known Member

    First of all, I’m not demanding that you agree to anything. Just pointing out that what you’re doing here only serves to make you feel better.

    I’ve already provided to you expert opinions on the topic from people that have studied, and are trained in this field confirming that what you are doing will have the exact opposite effect of what you claim to be fighting for.

    Are you saying that you know better than these professors and professionals? Did you not read the article that I linked? Care to rebut what those experts had to say?
     
  2.  
    Fogdog

    Fogdog Well-Known Member

    The main issue that I have with your theory is that it is completely hypothetical. Not too different from Rob Roy's Anarcho Capitalist theories.

    I read the article and remain unconvinced that what you say will work on a large scale. I assure you that I don't practice what I preach at the family level. At that level, I completely agree that the priority is keeping the family together and providing a good alternate example but I am under no delusion that I'm going to change my conservative, racist-leaning brother. Ever. We focus on other common interests. So, maybe not even there can what you believe be shown to work.

    Where in the world has your approach worked at a large scale? I can give you post war Germany as a valid and recent example of how suppressing racism and educating children has proven effective over a long period of time.

    I say your response is still completely hypothetical. Put up a real world example of where your ideas have proven effective or shut up.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
    abandonconflict likes this.
  3.  
    Fogdog

    Fogdog Well-Known Member

    Oh good fucking God. We have to be careful because white fragility

    White people in North America live in a social environment that protects and insulates them from race-based stress. This insulated environment of racial protection builds white expectations for racial comfort while at the same time lowering the ability to tolerate racial stress, leading to what I refer to as White Fragility. White Fragility is a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include the outward display of emotions such as anger, fear, and guilt, and behaviors such as argumentation, silence, and leaving the stress-inducing situation. These behaviors, in turn, function to reinstate white racial equilibrium.

    From @st0wandgrow 's professorial Stanford U (white, white, white private college) paper.

    Also,

    when some white people are confronted with that reality, whether it’s accusations of racism against them personally or more broadly, they immediately become very defensive — even hostile.

    “Most of us live in racial segregation,” DiAngelo told me. “Our teachers are white. Our role models are white. Our heroes and heroines are white. That insulation is very rarely challenged.” She added, “So when that reality is questioned, we don’t tend to handle it very well.
    Whimper

    Meanwhile, this country is not only showing no progress towards correcting racial inequality, we are actually talking about tip toeing around it because of white fragility. Holy crap. What about the people who actually are personally, economically and socially disadvantaged because of these fragile whites?

    This all smells of the pre-Civil War discussions against slavery. Attempt after attempt was made to find compromise with a society that used millions of people as beasts of burden that could also be fucked when the wife wasn't looking. The answer was confrontation, not compromise. In the end, it was the racists that took up arms first. Yet to this day, these fragile whites cry about their feelz.

    No sympathy.
     
  4.  
    st0wandgrow

    st0wandgrow Well-Known Member

    Germany? By what metric are you concluding that Germany has become some standard bearer for racism? Are you talking about hate crimes? If so, that’s a completely different topic and as I’ll link you to below perhaps not such a good example.

    If you’re talking about Germans prejudices and personal opinions how exactly is that being measured? What data can you cite that proves that German citizens are much less racist than they were 10, 20, 30 years ago? I hope you don’t point me to a poll after spending months here yammering on about how useless polling data is.

    If someone commits a hate crime, then I am in full agreement that the book should be thrown at them. That’s not what we’re talking about though. The vast majority of people who are prejudiced do not act on their prejudices in a criminal manner. Members of RIU for example may post some objectionable shit, which you in turn react to by calling them names because you think that’s the best way to handle it. I have proven to you that it is not...but yet here you are playing Dr Fogdog social psychologist. lol

    Maybe it’s you that needs to shut up.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...-accused-of-failing-to-tackle-racist-violence

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/06/germany-failing-to-tackle-rise-in-hate-crime/

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.spie...ny-fears-for-its-reputation-a-501352-amp.html
     
  5.  
    srh88

    srh88 Well-Known Member

    He would of got my vote!
     
  6.  
    Grandpapy

    Grandpapy Well-Known Member

    There was a brief Corp push once upon a time that seemed to help.
     
  7.  
    travisw

    travisw Well-Known Member

    You have some problems with your examples again sport.

    I don't have loads of time today, so I'll just cover the first one. Your post would imply that the late Rev. Wade Watts, odd that you didn't even think to include his name, given that he's such a great example of how you cure racism, cured Johnny Lee Clary of racism. This is utter horse shit.

    What actually cured Johnny of his dependency on the clan? You can thank the FBI for that.

    Clary alleges a girlfriend at the time turned out to be an FBI informant who discovered the identities of several “secret” Klan members who were in turn disclosed publicly.

    “When I first joined the Klan, it was like mom, apple pie and white supremacy,” he said. “The next thing you know it switches to a Nazi philosophy of wanting to exterminate other races, kill people and blow up government buildings.”

    Clary also alleges a leader within a neo-Nazi group approached him about going to Libya to get money for the white power movement from Col. Muammar Qaddafi.

    When Clary began speaking at Klan rallies and appearing on shows such as “Oprah” and “The Morton Downey Jr. Show,” his wrestling career suddenly dried up.

    Using Mafia figure Charles “Lucky” Luciano’s methods as a model, Clary said he attempted a last-ditch effort to pull things together.

    “(Luciano) unified the Mafia families in New York by forming a commission,” he said. “If it worked for the Mafia, where the Mafia gained all this power, it’s got to work for white supremacy.”

    Clary said he called a unity meeting of white power groups in Pulaski, Tenn. The meeting, he said, was a disaster. Members of various groups spent the day fighting among themselves, he said.

    But when a friend told Clary that the FBI had approached police about planting drugs on him to get him out of the picture, he knew it was time to walk away from the Klan.

    “I started thinking, I gave up a career in pro wrestling, I gave up a normal relationship with a girl I was in love with, I gave up my privacy,” he said. “Am I ready to give up my freedom and go to prison for the white race?”

    “These were a lot of police officers,” said Clary. “People were losing their jobs for being in the Klan.” The FBI was becoming more and more aggressive making weapons cases against Klan members. It became apparent to Clary the FBI would see him in prison if something didn’t change. Clary repented, for the wrong reason, and resigned from the Klan. Then, those he had recruited turned on their former leader, saying a true Klansman wouldn’t abandon the organization because of the threat of imprisonment.

    “They called me a stoolie and coward. I said, ‘OK, you go to prison for the Klan,'” said Clary.

    Obviously, you and your clique watched a couple of youtube videos and everyone clearly read that Vox article detailing the work of those two grad students and Alanna Conner. You guys got all pumped like super heroes because you feel like you can cure racism now.

    I'm simply suggesting it's a little more complicated than that.
    [​IMG]
     
  8.  
    rkymtnman

    rkymtnman Well-Known Member

    If the GOP can cure homosexuality by a few weeks at summer camp, I'm sure a cure for racism isn't far behind.
     
  9.  
    st0wandgrow

    st0wandgrow Well-Known Member

    There is no doubt that it’s a complicated issue, and there is no doubt that there is a certain segment of society that will always hold prejudices...but the point in all of this is determining what’s more effective. Attempting to reason with someone, or publicly berating them with the whole “fat, stupid, cuck” routine?

    I’m pretty convinced that it’s not the latter, but I’m open to evidence to the contrary.
     
    Padawanbater2 and Fogdog like this.
  10.  
    Fogdog

    Fogdog Well-Known Member

    You are using the same argument that global warming deniers use. Hey, it's snowing. So much for global warming. There was an argument that we were actually exhibiting global cooling when the right short term numbers were found. What you are doing is picking at short term trends as if they disprove long term ones.

    Looking at where Germany was at the end of WW2, they have come a long way in terms of attitudes and behavior towards jews and foreigners. In the process, they have banned the exhibit of Nazi symbols, censored anti-Semitic and racist hate speech and have broad laws regarding what can and cannot be said in public. Absolutely, Germany still experiences hate crimes and exhibits systemic racism. Note that most of their problems come from areas which had been in East Germany and has only had the benefit of suppression of Nazi racist speech and behavior since the mid-1980's. The following is a paper that studied trends in public opinions and attitudes between 1900 and 1980 in Germany:

    [​IMG]

    Indoctrination of children during the 1930's in Nazi schools created a group of people who never changed their views. Those who were committed anti-semitic maintained their views throughout their lives.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4491745/


    Another article on the same subject can be found here:
    http://voxeu.org/article/hatred-transformed-how-germans-changed-their-minds-about-jews-1890-2006

    There is much in this article, linked above, which agrees with what you say. During occupation, a softer approach by the British in their anti-Nazi programs was more effective than the US's harsher, more punitive approach in terms of acceptance of anti-nazi attitudes but the difference was only in degree and not meaningful in terms of overall changes in views of the population.

    This is why I say that the only way to address racism in this society is:
    Suppress racists because adults will never change their viewpoints, racism is based invalid beliefs and can only pollute younger minds.
    Educate children to not be racist; because an attitude formed early is more likely to persist
    Continue this until racism dies out. This is not a short term fix.

    Thus far, you have only attacked my assertions and done nothing to defend yours. Provide an example of where your ideas have made a meaningful change in large scale public attitudes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  11.  
    Fogdog

    Fogdog Well-Known Member

    LOL

    Cringe

    Big corporations never learn


    Kendall Jenner solves racism and police brutality with Pepsi.
    cringe
     
  12.  
    st0wandgrow

    st0wandgrow Well-Known Member

    1900?? If we’re going to hop in the way back machine I could make the same case for America as you’re trying to make for Germany. We went from slavery, to segregation, to the civil rights act, to affirmative action, to today. There are still people that hold racist beliefs here, just like there is in Germany. That’s taking a macro view of the picture and how a government plays a role in it, when in reality this conversation started with how best to deal with a racist individual.

    I agree with you that educating children not to be prejudiced is very important. I agree with you that hate crimes should be dealt with harshly. I don’t know what you mean by “suppressing racism” though, but that seems to be where we are in disagreement.

    What does “suppressing racism” mean to you?
     
    Padawanbater2 likes this.
  13.  
    Unclebaldrick

    Unclebaldrick Well-Known Member

    I have not tried the Pepsi Cringe, is it good?
     
  14.  
    Fogdog

    Fogdog Well-Known Member

    Really, we can't use history to guide policies? I'm beginning to think you just make shit up and demand everybody conform to the voices in your head. You mock me as a playing a social psychologist, which we all know I am not but you would deny examination of the historical record?

    Germany presents a very good example of how views do and don't change over time. In the graphic in my previous post, look at the bump up in committed antisemitism that occurred in children born during the 1930s. Contrast that with children born in the 1960s. The long term effort has to be on how to educate children and to prevent conflicting messages from polluting young minds.

    Suppression isn't the same as punishment. The emphasis Germany took is to stifle and suffocate the messages of racism, xenophobia and antisemitism so that they don't propagate into the next generations. I've already listed some of the approaches: "they have banned the exhibit of Nazi symbols, censored anti-Semitic and racist hate speech and have broad laws regarding what can and cannot be said in public." This is all meant to curb and de-legitimize racist and other forms of hate speech.

    To identify judicial actions that are effective, another clue can be found in the effectiveness of the British approach during German occupation where they "pursued a limited and pragmatic approach that focused on major perpetrators." To this day, sectors that had been occupied by the British tend to be less antisemitic than the sectors occupied by the US which pursued a wider scale policy to arrest and prosecute people down to the ordinary men involved in Nazi persecution.
     
  15.  
    Fogdog

    Fogdog Well-Known Member

    They pulled it from the market and apologized for ever taking it out of the lab.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
    Unclebaldrick likes this.
  16.  
    Grandpapy

    Grandpapy Well-Known Member

    LOL I stand corrected, my ads are mysteriously 80% age/med related. I feel targeted.
     
  17.  
    Fogdog

    Fogdog Well-Known Member

    That Coke ad was startlingly similar to the Pepsi in its fake attempt to connect with social movements. LOL as if the people who wrote the Coca cola ad had only recently escaped from a time vault.
     
    Grandpapy likes this.
  18.  
    dagwood45431

    dagwood45431 Well-Known Member

    So sad, if true.
     
    Justin-case, Fogdog and Unclebaldrick like this.
  19.  
    Unclebaldrick

    Unclebaldrick Well-Known Member

    What do you think Pad spends more time on; convincing racists that racism is bad, or convincing people to duct-tape their asshole open?
     
  20.  
    dagwood45431

    dagwood45431 Well-Known Member

    :clap:
     
    srh88 and Justin-case like this.

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